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Maty83_Cz

On the topic of the upcoming T9 and T10 japanese destroyers and their usefullness (And how they might be underwhelming otherwise)

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Quick disclaimer: The suggestions I will bring up does not include the Akizuki/100mm HSF Harekaze as they seem to be doing rather well with the current setup, however, it could always be extended to them.

Okay, now onto the topic...

As many of you now know, the T9 and T10 alternative Japanese DDs have been officially announced. While I think this is great news, I have been wondering about the usability of their 100mm guns at tier 9 and 10 respectively. To demonstrate what I am talking about, let's talk about the ammunition most DDs use: Their High-Explosives (HE), because of the incredibly low caliber and the low penetrating power that it brings. I will do the math for you (Click the spoiler to look at it).

Spoiler

First of all, I am going to bring up a forum post that in detail explains how HE penetration works:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/112361-dealing-damage-heapifhe-edition-he-mechanics/

Now that we all know what HE can penetrate and how it does that, let's do some quick math.

100/6= roughly 16,67mm. That can not in fact penetrate anything except for DD, CV and cruiser superstructures at T8+. Not even cruiser hull plating.

Now, if we add IFHE, things get a bit more interesting: (100/6)*1,3=21,67mm. Now DDs and CVs can be easily damaged and all classes can have their superstructure damages

However, that still leaves two more classes of ships that are almost immune to the HE, except for their superstructures: Cruisers and Battleships (Excluding the British cruisers). This is not ideal as it will severely limit the potential of the upcoming DDs to deal damage to these classes, especially the cruisers as the fires that will be set on them last only 30 seconds. The cruisers are also far more maneuverable, enabling them to dodge torpedoes easily. As a bonus, cruisers can often have the hydro-acoustic search consumable mounted, further reducing the risk the torpedoes pose to them. Thinking about the possibilities of enabling the DD to be able to effectively deal with cruisers, the possibility of buffing the penetration potential came to my mind. If the penetration was buffed to a higher percentage of the caliber on these, the following would happen:

Spoiler

1/5

100/5=20. Now the DDs can always damage a superstructure regardless of the class. This would in fact bring the ships to work much better without needing at least a 10-point captain

If we add IFHE into the mix, the penetration goes up to 26mm, allowing the cruisers to penetrate the bow and stern of enemy cruisers while not allowing the penetration of the decks of enemy heavy cruisers (The following cruiser would still not be penetrated except for superstructure: Hipper, Roon, Hindenburg, Des Moines, Baltimore)


1/4

This is too high as with IFHE any bow and stern plating on any ship would not withstand the penetrative power (32,5mm), making the IJN gunboats too overpowered in most scenarios. It wouldn't eliminate the need for IFHE either, as based on the mechanics described in the forum post, the shells would still not be able to normally pen any cruiser bow/stern T8+

Even Mighty Jingles mentions this in his new World Of Warships video.

Spoiler

 

To conclude this topic, I would like to say that this is only a suggestion, yet I feel a necessary one. While the Akizuki is excellent, the low penetration of the HE can bring the ship down sometimes. And for that reason I suggest this. I'd also like to say that the ships can, of course, be balanced in another way, but this feels like the most natural solution. The penetratoin of the HE should be brought up slightly, maybe even to 1/4,5 caliber, but not higher to prevent these ships from becoming dominant over any other DDs.

And of course, a big thank you for reading this topic and thinking about the arguments I presented here.

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33 minutes ago, Maty83_Cz said:

However, that still leaves two more classes of ships that are almost immune to the HE, except for their superstructures: Cruisers and Battleships (Excluding the British cruisers). This is not ideal as it will severely limit the potential of the upcoming DDs to deal damage to these classes, especially the cruisers as the fires that will be set on them last only 30 seconds.

Ultimately ships have to bow to balance. At tier X, cruisers are the size of lower tiered battleships and are about as easy to hide as a Kurfurst on top of the salt flats. IJN destroyers are incredibly stealthy and, judging by the Akizuki, will have very beefy health pools. With that mentioned, there is absolutely no reason for a Kitakaze or Harugumo to be picking fights with high tiered heavy cruisers. A comparable line to these ships would be the Russian destroyers, and they aren't exactly good at hurting high tiered cruisers either. I can't see why ships that are essentially still destroyers should fare better against cruisers against the destroyer line that is explicitly cruiserlike.

33 minutes ago, Maty83_Cz said:

The cruisers are also far more maneuverable, enabling them to dodge torpedoes easily.

I could hear the Yueyang laughing somewhere in the background. The Japanese gunboat line is an anti-destroyer line, not an anti-everything line. If they ambush a cruiser they could still wreak havoc with their DPM and they could still cause severe damage to cruisers. As an extension, no destroyer naturally can hurt tier X battleships with HE unless they hit the superstructure so this isn't exactly rare.

44 minutes ago, Maty83_Cz said:

To conclude this topic, I would like to say that this is only a suggestion, yet I feel a necessary one. While the Akizuki is excellent, the low penetration of the HE can bring the ship down sometimes. And for that reason I suggest this. I'd also like to say that the ships can, of course, be balanced in another way, but this feels like the most natural solution. The penetratoin of the HE should be brought up slightly, maybe even to 1/4,5 caliber, but not higher to prevent these ships from becoming dominant over any other DDs.

The problem of course comes from the fact that these destroyers would utterly dominate any destroyer they come across in a fair fight with an arguable exception of the Khabarovsk even if their penetration doesn't change. They fill this niche extremely well, and I think that extending their power over to their ability to directly damage other targets would make them too powerful even if they would struggle against certain cruisers. They're incredible at killing other destroyers, with ships like the Akizuki able to win gunfights against almost every single tier X destroyer, and they are good at setting battleships on fire and harassing them from smoke screens. That said, there really is no reason to discuss caliber interaction. WG could very well have just made an exception for the HE penetration for the Akizuki. The fact that they didn't probably just means that they consider the Akizuki powerful enough that they need to give her a 4 captain point 'tax' for her to work and I can't really disagree with them in this particular case. I've seen what IFHE AKizukis can do to destroyers.

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Those were some well made points, thanks. Yet I feel that the ships could in a situation without a lot of DDs in the match suffer as it is entirely up to the matchmaker how many DDs get into a match, making the ship sometimes far worse than other DDs, which is my main concern.

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