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Horin728

Notsers CV video

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So I have watched his video and this is my criticism... Watch the video first, but man he really has not very good knowlede about CVs....

 

 

Notser got so many things wrong I am quite speechless... I mean using "too much skill" as an argument vs CVs? While I respect you as a DD main, you probably don't have enough expirience in CVs to really drive these points home (since I am a CV main).

 

First of all: RTS is not the issue, why is the population dropping. The issue why it is dropping is because WG was unwilling to provide players with tutorials. Man, even using a bloody training room with stationary drops to test manual drops on would be enough! Or expand on that system, add a bot CV that just launches unarmed planes that you have to learn how to strafe down. Then arm them. Then add enemy strafes... That is the reason why people have nowhere to learn, unless they go into training rooms against other willing CV players. There is no tutorial, no CV campaign, no CV series on the official channel... Seems more like WG wants to actively block new players from getting in (which is understandable since they don't want more players to learn the class they are reworking and then be upset that it was reworked). Also hoping not to run into a player that has more skill than one has is present in every single class, in every single game... Because then you have to rely on rng and luck... And no one wants to do that.

 

Scouting:

To use your planes as scouts is simply wastefull (in random battles) unless the battle is already going to a closure. You need your fighters to protect your stike package and you need your strike to be doing damage in order to win. There are not many situations where it is worth it to leave your sqadron over enemy ship. How would I fix that issue if I really thought that it exists? Gradual increase in enemy AA the longer you stay in range. Here. Done. You want to keep that DD spotted? OK but the longer you do the more planes it will cost you. Also you are not doing damage/attacking the enemy strike package with that squadron. Then you have to get it back to rearm (why do you think good CV players get closer to the battle to reduce travel time?) You might say "hey what about the DDs that have shorter range AA than their spotting distance?" Well there are 2 solutions - one is to say tough luck, since they are usually the RU DDs which don't care about conceament anyway or you can add the AA range so it matches the spotting range... And if the CV player decides to dance at the edge of the spotting? Well that is a a hell of a lot of attention that is focued on that one squadron and I am sure as hell that that attention is needed elsewhere...

 

Ability to "oneshot pretty much every ship in the game"

Now this is just plain wrong. The only time a CV can "oneshot" you is if you make a critical mistake (like dropping smoke and stopping in the middle of it, when it comes to DDs) and that can happen on behalf of every other class as well. And it you had been playing CVs more in an enviroment where CVs are more popular (namely the EU server) you'd soon learn that there are tools that counter CVs heavily (talking TX RN). Mainly the defensive fire consumable, which screws with drops immensely and is basically no skill one button to screw over CVs. Not to mention the constant AA power creep. You don't even have to take dedicated AA division into account, just one AA specced ship can ruin CVs day. (That was the reason I originally started with the USN CA line in CBT). Also, BBs can oneshot every other class. DDs can too. Why should CVs be different?

 

Control:

While you can split your squadrons up to create "macro" situations, there ususally is little advantage to do that, since if you split your squadrons, you divide your hp and strike potential between more AA. Try splitting your squadrons at TX in a mid AA situation (once again I refer to the EU server) and I guarantee you that you won't get many planes through. So you are basically controlling 3 - 4 squadrons - your fighters (individually) and your TBs and DBs groupped. Which leads to your assumption that controlling 3 to 4 squadrons is boring being wrong. The 1 v 1. Yes CV gameplay is focused on CV vs CV. That is the main counter! The whole RTS genre is based around 1 v 1 or maybe 2 v 2! You have to spend time to get goot at CVs. A lot of time, but the reward is worth it. I don't want to rely on the average potato to do his job, since I know he (most usually) will not. That is another reason to play CVs. To stop being so dependant on others. To get the influence over the match you want. Do you sometimes get the feeling that no matter what you do to win, your team just screws everything up and they are feeding their ships into the enemy one by one and there is nothing you can do about it? Well in a CV you finally can. You can outplay the enemy and it can mean something even though your teammates suck. That is WHY you play CVs. To be able to rely on yourself and to fix others mistakes.

 

The comptetitive side:

If your clan has the ambitions to get into the hurricane league, it should have a decently skilled CV captain. I spent basically half a year training for clan wars (ever since the initial announcement right to the confirmation that CVs will be excluded) and all that time all that effort was for nothing. The CV exclusion made me stop playing warships completely for good 4, 5 months... I was that angry. And still am. If you don't have a good enough CV player, then grow one. Look at RTS forums for players, take them to WoWs. Teach them what you need in clan wars and get them to play for you. Also clan wars being divided into leagues, means that only the best will play against the best (save for the initial launch of a season) so you will not have as huge skill descrepency. Notser have you watched Kings of the sea? Where clans actually spec for AA? Have you seen what high AA situation can do to CVs? Right now the situation is that people are unwilling to sacrifice their skillpoints/modules for AA and they are getting punished for it.. AA AA is bad and has been since day 1. We know that. The issue is that they are dicerolls. Once again we come to RNG ruining the game... If there were permanently set values and healthbars that would enable you to count and plan that would solve most issues. Currently we are in AA power creep situation that is not even funny... As for the cheesing AA divisons - allow CVs to division up only with the same tier of ships... Done.

 

While I respect Notser for his DD/CA/BB skills... he has way too little expirience in CVs to comment on CV situaton from the point of CV... He are on the recieving side, but he has not gone deep enough into CVs to really comment on the giving side... Has he ever tried to strike an actively evading Khaba with Midways unresponsive T8 TBs? Has he ever lost his entire strike package to a DM or Mino? (Who, few patches ago, could stay invisible while doing it?). The one point I grant him is the skill tansfer. You have to have vastly different skillset to play CVs well, however that skillset is easily found in any other RTS game. The game does not teach you anything about CVs, because there are no prompts, no tutorial (as I already mentioned) People can counter CVs with their skills and specs. They just don't want to.

 

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I personally  dont play CV because of the strafe. I dont understand it, i dont see the logic in it from "realistic" point of view, with the " u lose one plane if u brake the strafe/plains remain "stunned" for  2 seconds" thingie. I  was doing ok tier 4, and tier 5, then i hit tier 6 and realize is not fair for the rest of the team to have me like a CV, wich will lose 90% of the fight against more experimented CV player.

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Notser is right. WG need to change CV completely or only catering for the 2-3% top players of cv's. The skill gap is to massive to balance out. There is a reason why people old and new don't want to play CV. Cv's should be as easy to play as other ship classes to make sense.

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That's just your opinion man.

WG has the numbers and feedback, which they probably shared with Notser ( somewhat ).

I belive them that RTS gameplay ( with crap UI ) is the foremost reason why players don't use CVs with other classes. It can be really frustrating.

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2 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

Notser is right. WG need to change CV completely or only catering for the 2-3% top players of cv's. The skill gap is to massive to balance out. There is a reason why people old and new don't want to play CV. Cv's should be as easy to play as other ship classes to make sense.

what u talking about omg?  i play cv and always will play XD for me nothing changes , cv is easy to play

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6 minutes ago, xXx_Blogis_xXx said:

what u talking about omg?  i play cv and always will play XD for me nothing changes , cv is easy to play

Everything you are good at in life is easy. That is how it works. 

 

 

Always find it funny that CV mains are the only ones allowed to talk about CV's on this forum, yet they always have an opinion on other ships. Hypocritical much? 

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Hes wrong on so many levels, and about so many things, its not even funny.

Didn't even have the will to watch the whole video, since I couldn't listen to his nonsense anymore...

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19 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

If it is so easy how come not more is playing CV?

Because easy to play and being good at is not mutual here. It’s easy to play, but it’s also easy for someone with an IQ over room temperature to just face roll you completely without being able to land a single strike the whole game. 

 

Imo strafe needs to go. Deleting entire wings of planes ina. Second is just stupid. Remove storage and give the ability to just disengage fighter locks. Basically if you order your fighters away they act like normal planes and get dmg by the chasing fighters. That would make cv so much more noob friendly 

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55 minutes ago, Horin728 said:

First of all: RTS is not the issue, why is the population dropping.

Pfff... well, I made my attempt at CVs when you could still use manual drops and stafes at T4 and more or less managed them. But for me it was in fact the RTS type of play that kept me clear of CVs. Apart from the fact that I like playing a real ship and not park behind the island closest to the bordermap and clicking until the game ends yawning in the back.

 

I don't know about CVs requiring a lot of skill, didn't bother with them long enough and I just did fair enough against low tiers for what a T4 one can do, but for me the major factor for not touching CVs is that the type of play around CVs is boring as f**k.

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1 hour ago, Horin728 said:

Notser got so many things wrong I am quite speechless...

Like that would be something new or unexpected :Smile_trollface:

 

This video is just the typical "beating around the bush for X minutes to make a video without really knowing anything about it" with a surprising lack of "but it FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELS" for a Notsers video

 

55 minutes ago, N00Boo7 said:

i dont see the logic in it from "realistic" point of view

It's called "game balance" in something that is a "game" not a "simulator". It's about time people start realizing that

 

 

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Notser is not always perfectly accurate but I think think he's got the issues nailed here... CV play is a game-within-a-game which is too random and unbalanced both to play and play against. At low tiers the CV is a seal-clubber where anyone with the ability to work the UI can trash the other players' games without the possibility of redress, at higher Tiers the outcome of the game is too dependent on the relative skill of the CV players. Generally the best games are those where the CV has no more impact than a single ship of any other class, this is where WG's redesign should be heading.

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Just leave Notser alone , he already has problem with islands in the game.

 

P.s. some of us love him :D

 

Hey this is Notser!

 

 

Notice me senpai xD

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Surely if the argument and point of contention is why more people don't play and enjoy CV, then being relatively inexperienced at CVs is exactly the qualification needed to comment. Sorry guys but pandering to top 1%-ers isn't the right way to design a game.

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With the passing of time I am more and more inclined to just remove CVs completely. Then we have the (relatively) more simple "rock-paper-scissors" trifecta to balance.

 

Full disclosure: I am bad at CVs, I kinda enjoyed the T4-T5 IJN ones back when they had manual drops, strafes and was slowly getting the hang of them. After they removed alt-attacks from them, I did try Ryujo in training rooms (back when they had active bots in them) and coop and found I just can't handle that amount of squads (5) and the ship itself and at the same time pay attention to the map, team, ...

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I do think CVs need rework badly and enjoy discussion about the topic of changes but I do really hate all the hysteria and downright hypocrisy around the subject.

 

Considering there are already threads about CV balance on these forums I am just going to answer arguments Notser has, rather than discussing the rework itself:

 

1. Notsers argument: people have stopped playing CVs because it is RTS mode is wrong, because if people do not like mode, they would stop at Tier 4 / Tier 5 and not grind up to high tiers while also buying premium CVs

 

2. His argument; new people are not playing CVs because it is RTS and experience gained in other classes does not transfer well is actually sound (the argument is right) but the premise is wrong. It is so because his argument is only an assumption not backed by any data. People that quit playing CVs were not asked by WG why did they stopped.

 

So because the argument is purely an assumption I have my own here: 

If CV RTS style would be more polished, with responsive controls, good presentation of effects, graphics and information and solid tutorials were provided then more players would keep playing the class.

 

3. Numerous false issues with core game mechanics like:

CV can oneshot any ship (not true because of df AA),

CV has universal scouting tool ( not true because of smoke screens),

it is just CV vs CV and the rest of the team has nothing to say about it (even though massive AA ships like Mino / Hinden / Des Moines and even DDs with defensive AA exists)

 

4. Argument about new players being in tough spot because the skill of potentiall opponent they will face, is true for any other class and even any other adversarial type of game, no matter whether it is RTS or not.

New players are indeed in tough spot but it is not related to game being RTS (such statement simply invalidates existence of actuall RTS games like StarCraft or Company of Heroes), so argument is fallacious because it simply misses the point.

 

5. He contradicts himself in this example: if it is just CV vs CV and the rest of the team has nothing to say, and after that he says that divisioned CV is much more powerful, wouldn't that mean that other ships than CV matter a lot as well?

 

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I feel I've played enough CV to have a semi valid opinion (252 games, both lines up to tier 7), however I choose not to play them.

 

The reasons (for me) are;

-Its dull. Most of the gameplay is with the camera zoomed out as far as possible, moving some symbols around. I cant even usually see the planes, instead they're some specks underneath a green symbol.

 

-Its actually hard. Playing CV requires constant, constant multitasking and attention. Much more than playing any other class. I end up getting annoyed at myself because Ive forgotten to launch a squad, or my fighters have died while I was trying to strike something.

 

-Its frustrating. The UI is buggy; planes frequently miss drops and rotate around for another go (dying in the process). Regardless of people saying "you can strike anythibg anywhere", frequently the opposite is true - you usually get the unenviable choice between attack a DD that is near an atlanta, try attacking a pair of AA BB, or try attacking a blob of 5 ships

 

-Its guaranteed grief. From not enough resources to cover all demands (2 fighter squads cant cover 6 locations), to inane demands, to simply being blamed for everything. You yolo'd up the middle of two brothers? Must be my fault. I spotted everything, killed all their DD, and kept all the enemy planes away, but we lost because you all hid in A1? Yeah obviously thats my fault too. Add on getting grief from enemy team because you killed them while they're doing something dumb and its a recipe for getting ranted at every game regardless of what you do.

 

Add those up and its just not really fun (for me at least) - if I wanted to be whinged at for something stressful and dull thats not really my fault then I'd go back to working cuatomer service

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3 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

Everything you are good at in life is easy. That is how it works. 

 

 

Always find it funny that CV mains are the only ones allowed to talk about CV's on this forum, yet they always have an opinion on other ships. Hypocritical much? 

 

Hi, I mostly play BBs but play everything else when I feel like it.

There's nothing wrong with the RTS aspect of CVs, except the fact that it's glitchy.

 

There you have it. A non CV main that said something about CVs on this forum. Want to know why its mostly CV mains that talk on the forum? Because if it weren't for other people bringing this thread to my attention, I wouldn't have cared to do so.

Knowing what nonsense Notser spewed in his video now I decided to come along and voice my opinion on CVs.

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24 minutes ago, Jognt said:

 

Hi, I mostly play BBs but play everything else when I feel like it.

There's nothing wrong with the RTS aspect of CVs, except the fact that it's glitchy.

 

There you have it. A non CV main that said something about CVs on this forum. Want to know why its mostly CV mains that talk on the forum? Because if it weren't for other people bringing this thread to my attention, I wouldn't have cared to do so.

Knowing what nonsense Notser spewed in his video now I decided to come along and voice my opinion on CVs.

Hi. Good for you. 

There is nothing wrong with the RTS aspect of CV's? That is why its an overflow of CV players right? 

 

If i wanna play RTS i go and play SC2. Its balanced around being an RTS, UI is great and you play against players that have the same view and controls. Not so much in WoWs. 

 

I respect all the good CV players for sticking with it, but the gameplay is not inviting to new players, and when you don't have that aspect, the class will die out eventually and i doubt WG wants that. So from what i understand they are redoing the whole shindig. Which is good imo. Just hope they don't make the gameplay idiot proof like they have done with BB's. (No offense).

 

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9 hours ago, Horin728 said:

So I have watched his video and this is my criticism... Watch the video first, but man he really has not very good knowlede about CVs....

 

 

Notser got so many things wrong I am quite speechless... I mean using "too much skill" as an argument vs CVs? While I respect you as a DD main, you probably don't have enough expirience in CVs to really drive these points home (since I am a CV main).

 

First of all: RTS is not the issue, why is the population dropping. The issue why it is dropping is because WG was unwilling to provide players with tutorials. Man, even using a bloody training room with stationary drops to test manual drops on would be enough! Or expand on that system, add a bot CV that just launches unarmed planes that you have to learn how to strafe down. Then arm them. Then add enemy strafes... That is the reason why people have nowhere to learn, unless they go into training rooms against other willing CV players. There is no tutorial, no CV campaign, no CV series on the official channel... Seems more like WG wants to actively block new players from getting in (which is understandable since they don't want more players to learn the class they are reworking and then be upset that it was reworked). Also hoping not to run into a player that has more skill than one has is present in every single class, in every single game... Because then you have to rely on rng and luck... And no one wants to do that.

 

Scouting:

To use your planes as scouts is simply wastefull (in random battles) unless the battle is already going to a closure. You need your fighters to protect your stike package and you need your strike to be doing damage in order to win. There are not many situations where it is worth it to leave your sqadron over enemy ship. How would I fix that issue if I really thought that it exists? Gradual increase in enemy AA the longer you stay in range. Here. Done. You want to keep that DD spotted? OK but the longer you do the more planes it will cost you. Also you are not doing damage/attacking the enemy strike package with that squadron. Then you have to get it back to rearm (why do you think good CV players get closer to the battle to reduce travel time?) You might say "hey what about the DDs that have shorter range AA than their spotting distance?" Well there are 2 solutions - one is to say tough luck, since they are usually the RU DDs which don't care about conceament anyway or you can add the AA range so it matches the spotting range... And if the CV player decides to dance at the edge of the spotting? Well that is a a hell of a lot of attention that is focued on that one squadron and I am sure as hell that that attention is needed elsewhere...

 

Ability to "oneshot pretty much every ship in the game"

Now this is just plain wrong. The only time a CV can "oneshot" you is if you make a critical mistake (like dropping smoke and stopping in the middle of it, when it comes to DDs) and that can happen on behalf of every other class as well. And it you had been playing CVs more in an enviroment where CVs are more popular (namely the EU server) you'd soon learn that there are tools that counter CVs heavily (talking TX RN). Mainly the defensive fire consumable, which screws with drops immensely and is basically no skill one button to screw over CVs. Not to mention the constant AA power creep. You don't even have to take dedicated AA division into account, just one AA specced ship can ruin CVs day. (That was the reason I originally started with the USN CA line in CBT). Also, BBs can oneshot every other class. DDs can too. Why should CVs be different?

 

Control:

While you can split your squadrons up to create "macro" situations, there ususally is little advantage to do that, since if you split your squadrons, you divide your hp and strike potential between more AA. Try splitting your squadrons at TX in a mid AA situation (once again I refer to the EU server) and I guarantee you that you won't get many planes through. So you are basically controlling 3 - 4 squadrons - your fighters (individually) and your TBs and DBs groupped. Which leads to your assumption that controlling 3 to 4 squadrons is boring being wrong. The 1 v 1. Yes CV gameplay is focused on CV vs CV. That is the main counter! The whole RTS genre is based around 1 v 1 or maybe 2 v 2! You have to spend time to get goot at CVs. A lot of time, but the reward is worth it. I don't want to rely on the average potato to do his job, since I know he (most usually) will not. That is another reason to play CVs. To stop being so dependant on others. To get the influence over the match you want. Do you sometimes get the feeling that no matter what you do to win, your team just screws everything up and they are feeding their ships into the enemy one by one and there is nothing you can do about it? Well in a CV you finally can. You can outplay the enemy and it can mean something even though your teammates suck. That is WHY you play CVs. To be able to rely on yourself and to fix others mistakes.

 

The comptetitive side:

If your clan has the ambitions to get into the hurricane league, it should have a decently skilled CV captain. I spent basically half a year training for clan wars (ever since the initial announcement right to the confirmation that CVs will be excluded) and all that time all that effort was for nothing. The CV exclusion made me stop playing warships completely for good 4, 5 months... I was that angry. And still am. If you don't have a good enough CV player, then grow one. Look at RTS forums for players, take them to WoWs. Teach them what you need in clan wars and get them to play for you. Also clan wars being divided into leagues, means that only the best will play against the best (save for the initial launch of a season) so you will not have as huge skill descrepency. Notser have you watched Kings of the sea? Where clans actually spec for AA? Have you seen what high AA situation can do to CVs? Right now the situation is that people are unwilling to sacrifice their skillpoints/modules for AA and they are getting punished for it.. AA AA is bad and has been since day 1. We know that. The issue is that they are dicerolls. Once again we come to RNG ruining the game... If there were permanently set values and healthbars that would enable you to count and plan that would solve most issues. Currently we are in AA power creep situation that is not even funny... As for the cheesing AA divisons - allow CVs to division up only with the same tier of ships... Done.

 

While I respect Notser for his DD/CA/BB skills... he has way too little expirience in CVs to comment on CV situaton from the point of CV... He are on the recieving side, but he has not gone deep enough into CVs to really comment on the giving side... Has he ever tried to strike an actively evading Khaba with Midways unresponsive T8 TBs? Has he ever lost his entire strike package to a DM or Mino? (Who, few patches ago, could stay invisible while doing it?). The one point I grant him is the skill tansfer. You have to have vastly different skillset to play CVs well, however that skillset is easily found in any other RTS game. The game does not teach you anything about CVs, because there are no prompts, no tutorial (as I already mentioned) People can counter CVs with their skills and specs. They just don't want to.

 

No matter what peoples opinion is about the powerlevel of CVs. The problem that cant be solved as is now. Is the one vs one. CVs are more influential then other classes of ships, atleast in the right hands. This is why no more then one can be allowed per side in higher tiers. Also I think the game would become laggy with the amount of squads multiple CVs would bring. But as long as only one CV is allowed per side it will negatively impact the amount of people who play them. People dont want the pressure of being the one to potentialy sink the team. If only one DD was allowed DD-players might dwindle to because you would always get the blame in case of a loss. So the solution according to me has to be more CVs in game and every game. That or no CVs. To allow more CVs in every game they have to be less influential... not nessecarily the same as less powerful.

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:
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"Skilled CVs are the sole game decider."

- No. Yes, CVs are tremendously influential, because almost everyone else is ludicrously incompetent. But to say they are the sole game deciding factor is stupid beyond belief.

 

"Scouting is bad."

- Well, they shouldn't have nerfed smoke then, no?

 

"CVs can oneshot pretty much every ship in the game."

- I'll remember that the next time I see a no fly zone.

 

"WG tried to make the RTS concept work."

- Interesting how we've never seen anything of it.

 

"WG deliberately made scouting rewards worse for CVs."

- Well, I can see how they failed in making the RTS concept work when they did brilliant stuff like this.

 

"CVs are 1vs1."

- Are you joking? Even in the game displayed he got carried to victory by his teammates, contributing nothing and only farming damage, helped by the fact that he landed in the most forgiving CV match up (T9 in T7 game) AND in one that doesn't have a full lineup of ships. In my eyes he should've been near the bottom of the match exp wise, but ofc he's landed third place because DAMAGE.

 

"You can no longer learn how to CV."

- Wow, yeah, guess whose fault that is? Oh, wait, he's actually blaming everything on us, the skilled CV players. Is this guy for real?

 

"Cheese divs."

Wait a second, I thought CVs are 1vs1? How is it possible that other ships can have impact on CV play then? :cap_hmm: Also description of cheese divs is just plain wrong.

 

"AA is unhealthy and rightly so."

- True, but before he stated that CVs can simply kill anything anyway. What gives?

 

"CVs should be fun for everyone, even the target!"

- I hope he realizes that this is actually a PvP game.

 

Honestly that video makes me question if Notser has ever even touched a CV.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Honestly that video makes me question if Notser has ever even touched a CV.

Well he is sure a game expert with his peronal "reality" that differs from anyone else...

I just say IFHE is useless.....

....RDF is a useless skill........

 

He is just stinky that CVs keep his DDs he likes so much spoted...really hard to understand that a class cant be total OP and near nobody plays it.....

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That pretty much says it all... If CVs truly are that OP, why aren't there 200+ CVs in the queue, like BBs are?

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Alpha Tester
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13 minutes ago, Horin728 said:

That pretty much says it all... If CVs truly are that OP, why aren't there 200+ CVs in the queue, like BBs are?

Cause they are boring to play. And higher tiers they are limited.....cause when they weren`t limited, they ruined gameplay by being OP and killing whatever they wanted.

 

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5 minutes ago, Horin728 said:

That pretty much says it all... If CVs truly are that OP, why aren't there 200+ CVs in the queue, like BBs are?

Probably because people realise that with 200+ cv in the queue and ony 2 per side in any given game, no one would get a game anytime soon.

Ill be honest here, I dont like playing CVs and I dont like facing them , in the hands of the right person they are OP.

 

I would suggest take away Manual drop from all tiers OR Apply random duds (some, not all fail to arm ) in some drops. Another possible option is make the take off and recovery more time consuming, say 10-12 seconds per plane.

 

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