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Jean_Bart posted a topic in GameplayDo you support introduction of multiple fictional/paper/fantasy ships and the ongoing removal of historic ships that really existed at some point of history? Share your opinions! Soon WG will remove half of the existing carriers, all of which are historic, while they plan to intorduce a full soviet battleships' tech-tree, where most of the tiers will be filled with ships that never existed even as remote projects. If it is acceptable for carriers' trees to have missing tiers, why they fill other branches with many fantasy ships that never existed, for the sole sake of filling missing gaps? I am puzzled!
JeeWeeJ posted a topic in Age of Armour WarshipsRight, this topic is a copy of a post i made on the NA forums, but i thought i'd post it here aswel. Here are two plans made by the Dutch government to aquire big ships with which to defend its colonial empire. Suffice to say, two big wars spoiled those plans. I might add some other Dutch ships (cruisers etc) later. Enjoy! Battleship plan 1912 In the years before the outbreak of the first world war, the Dutch government became concerned about the naval expansion of the Japanese fleet during and following the Russo-Japanese war. As The Dutch Indies (now Indonesia) were of considerable economic importance to the Dutch economy, plans were made to enlarge the fleet protecting the colonies. In 1912, the then minister of naval affairs J. Wentholt came up with the plan "Panzerschip 1912" (roughly translated into Armoured ship 1912) which called for the construction of four armoured cruisers armed with 11" guns. However the navy was against this plan, which it deemed inadequate, and wanted bigger and stronger ships. This caused quite a stir in parliament and ultimately forced the minister to resign. The new minister (then under the new name "minister of war", now called minister of defence) wasted no time and formed a committee for the design and construction of 9 battleships, to counter the Japanese threat. They were to have a displacement of 21,000 tonnes, top speed of 21 knots, an armored belt of 250mm (where 300mm was more common) and armed with 8 13" guns. At first, only the German Krupp-Germania company (which was already constructing the German Kaiser class dreadnoughts) was contacted to make three preliminary designs for these ships: Fully oil fired, fully coal fired and mixed oil-coal firing. Oil firing was preffered, even though oil (and the infrastructure for it) was still scarce within the Dutch colonial empire. Among the designs that followed, this beauty came along. As far as i can tell, this is one of the first modern battleship designs with two quadruple turrets, just like the later French Richelieu and Dunkerque class battleships. The French Lyon class with 4 4-barreled turrets was designed in the same period, but also never built. HERE you can find a 3D redering of this vessel. (Dutch site, but the video speaks for itself!) As The Netherlands did not have experience with properly designing and building capital ships, a large number of international shipbuilding companies were contacted to assist in the design and to ultimately construct the ships. Of these, only Krupp-Germania (builders of the German Kaiser class), Blohm & Voss and Vickers came with designs which were seriously considered by the Dutch government. By 1914 the max dispacement had risen to around 28,000 tonnes and the guns enlarged to 8 14"/L45 in four twin turrets and the engines would run on mixed coal and oil firing with a top speed of 22 knots. Armor was still the weak, battlecruiser like, with a maximum thickness of 250mm. In the end... In July 1914 a bill had been passed for the funding of the ships (order was scaled down to 5 or 7) and even though there was still some discussion going about which design to choose (even though the Krupp-Germania design was apparently preffered), the first keel would been laid down in December of that year with the ships being completed in 1918. However, the War spoiled those plans and no keels were ever laid down. In 1920 and 1921 a new Royal Commission investigated the need for new ships to defend the Dutch colonial empire, but did not recommend to construct battleships. This ruling, combined with the growing pacifist movement of that time pretty much killed off the project...until the 1930 battlecruiser project came along (more on that later). In hindsight The latest designs of the Dutch dreadnoughts were relatively up to spec with dreadnoughts or battlecruisers of other nations, except in one area: armor and seconday guns. Due to the relatively small dispacement of 21,000 to 28,000 tonnes, weight was saved by using a less thick armoured belt. In that respect these ships were comparable to the Japanese Kongo class battlecruisers gun and armor wise, but much slower. To sum it up: not enough armor and guns for a battleship and too slow for a battlecruiser. But maybe the relative large amout of ships (5 to 9 planned ships) might have made up for that...we'll never know! So...How about some battlecruisers? In the 1930's the navy once again became convinced that the two light WW1 cruisers of the Java class, a fleet of submarines and a few old armored gunboats were not enough to protect the Dutch Indies agains possible Japanese aggression. It was believed that if a war with Japan broke out, it would send the bulk of its large ships to fight the Americans and the British, leaving their cruisers to fight the Dutch forces. So the Dutch navy began a project to aquire three "super cruisers" along the "stronger than faster, faster than stronger" line of thought. Dutch intelligence did not expect the Japanese cruisers to be escorted by carriers, so even the threat of these ships in port (as a fleet in being) would be enough to discourage the Japanese of invading Dutch territory. Design In 1939 the go-ahead was given to begin the planning and design of these ships. Top speed was to be 32 knots, 9 11"guns in three turrets and a considerable secondary battery of dual purpose 120mm guns and 40mm AA guns. As with the dreadnoughts, the Dutch were incapable of designing a modern capital ship so they turned to other countries. At first they turned to the French in the hope that they would release plans to their Dunkerque class battleships. But as this turned out to be a futile effort, the Dutch turned to their easterly neighbours: Nazi Germany.After a number of rounds of negotiations, the Germans agreed to release rough schematics of "a battlecruiser in line with the German school of shipbuilding" (which looked A LOT like the Scharnhorst class). At first this was even without the armor protection scheme but after later negotiations these were also released except the part below the water line. The Dutch faced two problems with the German design: They did not trust the all-diesel propulsion system and favoured a steam turbine setup. (but there wasnt enough room in the design) The design totally lacked torpedo defences as the Germans refused to release these. The first problem was to be solved by enlarging the engine room, but this ment sacrificing armour to keep within the 16,000 tonnes displacement limit. (as the Dutch were not involved with the naval treaties, they did not have to adhere to the 10,000 tonnes limit for cruisers)The second problem was solved with the help of the Italians. They gave the Dutch permission to inspect their Vittorio Veneto battleship and its protection scheme AND the Italians knew a thing or two about the German Scharnhorst. The result of this trip was a complete rework of the internal subdivision of the ship and resulted in better protection against magnetic torpedoes with the use of a reworked double bottom. The latter had to be abandoned however, as it would exceed the maximum draft specified. And in the end...part 2 Up to March 1940 Dutch delegations went to Berlin to discuss the designs with 1944 as an estimated delivery year for the first ship, but just like with the dreadnoughts, war reared its ugly head and things ground to a halt. In May of that same year, Germany invaded The Netherlands so you could say that all work was for nothing. 1047 class compared to the Scharnhorst class In contrast to the earlier dreadnought designs, the class 1047 would be one of the finest battlecruisers designed in that time. It's armor would be a bit weaker than its Scharnhorst counterpart, but in all other aspects it would have been better. More reliable engines, twin smokestacks which improved engine performance even further, better elevation for the main guns, far superior anti-air systems (the 40mm Bofors emplacements with Hazemeyer mounts were also used on Dutch destroyers, and were later copied by the British and Americans to become the Mark IV twin mount (RN) and MK 1 and 2 guns for the USN...some of the most effective AA guns of the war). Also the use of dual purpose secondary guns instead of single purpose enhanced its effectivenes even further. Concluding / TL;DR For a small navy (with a big history i might add) the Dutch had big plans for big ships, but every time they were ready to place the order war broke out. Their effectiveness in WW2 if they had been built would have been questionable though. Especially considering Japanese airpower and the use of long lance torpedoes. MAYBE that the battle of the Java sea would have turned out differently, but that's a big if. Thank you for reading, and i hope to see some more lesser known beauties on these forums! :) Sources: Wikipedia (plan 1912) Wikipedia (class 1047) Netherlandsnavy.nl (plan 1912) Netherlandsnavy.nl (class 1047)