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Found 68 results

  1. Azuma Tier X Japanese Heavy Cruiser This doesn't appear to have reached the EU just yet, so I thought I should bring it over. ST, Japanese cruiser Azuma, tier X Hit points – 71800. Plating - 25 mm. Main battery - 3x3 310 mm. Firing range - 19.1 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 5100. Chance to cause fire – 27%. Maximum AP shell damage - 8650.... Reload time - 18.0 s. 180 degree turn time - 36.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 196 м. HE initial velocity - 836 m/s. AP initial velocity - 836 m/s. Sigma – 2.0. Maximum speed - 34 kt. Turning circle radius - 920 m. Rudder shift time – 13.9 s. Surface detectability – 15.1 km. Air detectability – 13.4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 11.7 km. AA defense: - 12x2 40.0 mm, range - 3.5 km, damage per second - 132. - 18x3 25.0 mm, range - 3.1 km, damage per second - 110. - 8x2 100.0 mm, range - 5.0 km, damage per second - 166. Available consumables: - 1 slot - Damage Control Party - 2 slot - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA fire - 3 slot - Spotting Aircraft - 4 slot - Repair Party All stats are listed without crew and upgrade modifiers but with best available modules. The stats are subject to change during the testing. Quite honestly it just looks like a significantly inferior Stalingrad, especially as she apparently has no special rules for her AP. So compared to the Stalingrad, the Azumaya has: Poorer armor Poorer shell AP krupp Poorer shell AP bounce angles Poorer shell AP fuse time Worse shell velocity, and consequently a longer shell flight time Worse AP shell weight Worse accuracy Worse cruise speed Worse AA No radar suite at all A garbage armor scheme for a ship her size A worse rudder shift period Whilst both being: Large gun, large shell cruisers With the same overmatch threshold The same HE penetration threshold Occupying the same Tier X cruiser slot And in return she gets: A marginally better turning radius Better surface concealment A 4.5% better AP DPM and a 26% better HE DPM
  2. Supersubway

    Italian cruisers

    Hello, We were told that a Italian cruiser line was scheduled for q4 18, is there any update on that? Thanks
  3. ThemistoclesGR

    Atago + Atago B

    Hi fellas, For us who alredy have the Atago in port...wouldnt it be easier to just give us the black camo for the ship we already own? I think its more practical to just give us the premium camo instead of a new identical ship. Now i have to switch the captain all the time, change flags, buy again the upgrades etc etc....just not practical
  4. A while ago I copied a proposal by Lert on the NA forum. He made a proposal for HNLMS De Ruyter as well, arguably the most (in)famous Dutch ship that would be suitable for the timeframe of WoWs, and so I copied it here as well. So again, credits go to Lert since he did all the work and I merely copy-paste it to EU. ------------------------- Ok, some real talk. Although I would love for an actual Dutch nation to be in the game, chances of that happening are slim. Especially a cruiser line, which we just plain can't fill without resorting to a lot of theoretical designs, never-builts. This limits us to either a cameo or two in a pan-european cruiser tree, or a few premium ships. In this thread I would hope to present my argument for inclusion of the famous unique light cruiser de Ruyter as tier 4 premium, though with minimal tweaks she could just as easily work as a tier 4 in a pan-european cruiser tree. So without further ado, HNLMS de Ruyter In the 1930s the Dutch government saw the need for a new cruiser to supplement the aging Java class cruisers operating around Indonesia, which was at the time a Dutch colony. The theory was that with three cruisers operating in the area, we could guarantee two at sea, even if a third was in for repairs or service. However, the Netherlands was suffering a great depression at the time, and a very strong pacifistic movement further complicated matters. As such, one heavily restricted 'flotilla leader' was planned and finally authorized. The designers were held back by lack of funds as well as political pressure, and the resulting ship was under-powered, under-armored and under-gunned, due to extreme cost-saving measures and pacifist pressure. She was laid down at Wilton-Fijenoord dockyards at Schiedam on September 16th, 1933 and commissioned on October 3rd, 1936. She served the war in the Netherlands East Indies, now Indonesia, in fruitless attempts to thwart Japanese invasion. Invariably finding herself outmatched, she still fought for what she was worth, showing Dutch fighting spirit. She fought in the battle of the Bali Sea, where an air attack damaged her, but she survived. She also survived the battle of Badung Strait, and entered the battle of Java Sea as flagship, under Admiral Karel Doorman's command. It was here she found her demise. She was hit by a Long Lance torpedo from the Myoukou class Hagurowhich caused a fire and a flooding, and shorted out her electrical systems. Due to the lack of electricity, damage control efforts were severely hampered and the crew was unable to stop the fire and the flooding. De Ruyter sank the next morning at 2:30 AM, with the loss of 345 men out of 435 crew, including Admiral Doorman and Captain Lacomblé. Luitenant ter Zee Eugène Lacomblé. Schout-bij-Nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman. Her wreck was discovered in December 2002 and declared a war grave. However, in 2016 it was discovered that illegal salvage had led to the complete disappearance of de Ruyter, along with the wreck of the light cruiser Java and much of the Admiralen class destroyer Kortenaer. But how would she work in game? Tonnage: 7822 ton full load. This would give us 24400 hit points. This puts us slightly ahead of Phoenix, with her 24000 hit points and slightly behind Svietlana with her 24600 hit points. Nothing remarkable here, just a tier appropriate chunk of hit points. Armor: De Ruyter would be very soft indeed. Boasting only a 50mm armor belt with 13mm weather deck, 6mm splinter deck and 30mm citadel deck, with a 30mm bulkhead between the outer hull and the machinery space. The turrets also had 30mm of armor. This armor profile wouldn't stop anything substantial, and with an above water citadel she'd be very prone to instant deletions from battleships, cruisers and defecating seagulls. Main armament: De Ruyter saying 'hello'. 7x 150mm /50 Mk 9 & 10. These are Bofors designed guns built under license at Wilton-Fijenoord. The ship carried seven of these guns in four turrets, two twins superfiring aft and a single superfiring a twin, afore. Single mount superfiring a twin. These guns aren't in the game yet but we have most of the data about their performance, and what we don't have we can estimate by looking at similar mounts on ships that are in the game. To start with these were fairly slow firing guns, with a cited rate of fire of between 5 and 6 rounds per minute. If we go by best case scenario we get a 10 second reload cycle per barrel. They fired a 46kg projectile at 900 meters per second. Unfortunately I don't have any data on the bursting charge carried by these shells, but if we look at very similar guns firing very similar weight shells, like those on Phoenix, we can make an educated guess about what damage and fire chance these shells would very likely get. I would give de Ruyter the following numbers: 10s reload 30s traverse time 900 mps muzzle velocity 2200 HE dmg, 12% fire chance 3100 AP dmg 16.6k range 149m dispersion This gives us a broadside DPM of 130k with AP, compared to 132.8k on Phoenix. A bit lower, but still competitive. But will 130k DPM be enough? Phoenix is faster, better armored (yes, really) and as we will discuss later, more stealthy too. Plus, she has torpedoes. In fact, most if not all of the tier 4 cruisers have torpedoes, and competitive DPM. Except de Ruyter, which does not have torpedoes. So, no, I don't think 130k DPM with nothing else going for it will be sufficient. But how to buff de Ruyter's damage output without straying from historical gun performance? One option would be to buff her reload. I'm not a fan of this. I'd like to stick to the historical numbers as much as I can. Another option would be to buff her shells. Maybe inflated AP damage, like the Germans? Hmmm. Maybe. Or what about enhanced AP dynamics, like the British? If we look at the Navweaps page for these guns, it states that "Surviving ships were supplied with British-built munitions during World War II". Maybe we're on to something here. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say that if the ship used British ammunition, though 150mm instead of Royal Navy 152mm, it would still come from the same factories and design philosophy, to give de Ruyter's AP shells the improved ricochet angles and shorter fuse time of British cruiser AP. 5ms fuse time (compared to 33ms on normal cruiser AP) 60 ~ 75 degree ricochet angles before normalization (compared to 45 ~ 60 on normal cruiser AP) This I think would make her unremarkable DPM easier to apply, while still giving her a fall back shell with normal performing HE. What de Ruyter lacks in armor, speed or concealment she makes up for in ease-of-use of her main guns. Auxiliary armament: 10x 40mm Bofors Carrying 5 dual Bofors mounts, de Ruyter sports a very impressive AA suite for her tier at 117 dpm at 3.5km. Of course this AA suite is mostly useful for self defense and though it leaves room for buffing with captain skills, this would require a fairly hefty investment of captain points. Another problem is that all five dual Bofors nests are clumped together, making them vulnerable to a single HE impact. Maneuverability: Top speed: 32 knots. Not bad for a tier 4 cruiser, towards the faster side, but definitely nothing impressive either. The other cruisers at this tier are all close to this speed as well, except for outliers like Karlsruhe which manages only 27.5 knots. As for her agility, she's a fairly standard light cruiser, comparable in size to the others. As such I would give her middling agility as well. Let's say a 610 meter turning radius with base 6.1 second rudder shift. Concealment: De Ruyter has a very tall and prominent mast, which is both a boon and a hindrance. It helps give her very good gun range for her tier, but also makes her very visible. For concealment I would give her: 15.4km by sea 8km by air Consumables: Standard T4 cruiser. Damage Control Party, Hydro Acoustic Search. For added flavor we'll add Defensive Fire. Finally, de Ruyter carried provisions for a scout plane, so we'll give her one of those as well. No option for a fighter; between five Bofors nests and DFAA she doesn't need the additional AA DPS. Upgrade slots: Standard Tier 4, two slots, up to the 250k credit option. Play style: She wants to stay at the rear, where her bad concealment and worse armor are less of an issue. Modern fire control and a tall mast give her the range to reach out and touch someone. A potent AA suite, the DFAA consumable and Hydro give her the tools to function as fleet escort and support ship, and the combination of HE for at range and enhanced AP for close by helps her to damage at any range. She'll play like a the love child of Phoenix and Danae, being a squishy support cruiser with tools to help her do her job for the team. It's only her lack of torpedoes and mediocre ballistics that makes her stand out from the pack, but the enhanced AP helps off-set those drawbacks. Elephant in the room: I know many people want her at T5, but she simply doesn't have the legs, armor or DPM to be competitive at that high a tier. Omaha for example is faster, more heavily armored (yes, really), has more barrels to a broadside, faster reload and torpedoes. In fact, I was appalled to do the numbers on de Ruyter's guns and realized that, lacking torpedoes, I had to do something to enhance her gunnery to make her competitive at tier 4. Enhanced British AP is my choice, based purely on a throwaway line on the navweaps page about her weapons. De Ruyter under construction So, in short: Pros: Historical pedigree Powerful AA suite Plane Lots of design blueprints available (see gahetna link in sources) uhm ... Fast ... ish? Cons: AA is all mid range Bofors nests all clustered together Softer than a wet newspaper Uninspiring design, underpowered for her vintage Low tier (Limited public interest, low return on investment for modeling a whole new ship) Dutch nation not in game / limited captain training appeal What would she cost, if implemented at T4? $13 USD, for the ship and the slot. What camouflage would she wear? Best I can find out, this is what she was wearing when she was sunk: The camouflage would have the normal T4 premium camouflage bonuses: -3% detectability by sea +4% dispersion of incoming shells -10% cost of post-battle service +50% to XP At the end of this thread, de Ruyter waves goodbye as she sails away. In closing: Though I think it very likely that we'll eventually see her in the game, I'd rather they pick any other of a large selection of Dutch ships. While I fully acknowledge de Ruyter's place in history, she's just not a very interesting ship to me, design wise. A squishy, highly visible light cruiser with middling DPM, seen it before. Plus, I think she looks a bit clumsy with that straight bow and gigantic, prominent tower. That said, I won't complain if / when we do get her and I'd be first in line to buy her. I want to thank @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me nail down some of the intricacies of this proposal, @snowyskies for his help in finding detailed plans, and @fr05ty for his help with formulas and crunching numbers. ..... Odd, their @ mentions don't want to work for some reason. Sources used: @Pigeon_of_War ------------------------- End quote. Again, not my idea, but an idea by NA user Lert, who gave me permission to post it here. Like with the Witte de With proposal I'm all in for this idea. This might be a less unique ship compared to the destroyer, but she might be easier to balance. On top of that, she's a well-known ship that was built in real life ánd saw action, and that is something that can't be said from a lot of recent additions to the game.
  5. dasCKD

    The Damage Farm [BB Plague III]

    I am back here with my contentious opinions and weeby pics. Don't worry, this is a holiday diversion. I'm not actually back, this is a heatwave induced illusion. Fixing a recurring problem The idea of camping battleships has gone beyond the point of a meme now. The changes in game mechanic, the changes to battleships, and the release of battleship line after battleship line that are repetitively more and more immune to any type of instant destruction that many cruisers and destroyers risk. Ships like the Conqueror, which I will want to talk about later in detail, were given the improved regenerative abilities to dwarf all but the Minotaur in the list of her cruiser contemporaries despite being technically superior in armor and health to each and every one of her cruiser contemporaries with only one exception. I admit that I used to think that battleships were simply buffed over and over as a consequence of Wargaming attempting to wrongheadedly trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator to create a class that would be entirely damage proof yet at the same time far from game defining compared to their contemporaries. Looking at the changes that Wargaming has made however, I can't help but think that there is another goal beyond simply making battleships entirely immune to everything and that this is simply a consequence serving a larger and longer term goal. Whilst many of you could probably still think that I have gone insane and that marinating my brain in random so long has turned me to the dark side, I would like to defend my position by citing a few ships. I think that it is easy to say that Wargaming's balancing team is actually entirely stupid and have no idea what they are doing or that they know exactly what they are doing and that they are indeed trying to create the ubership that squashes all competition and that everyone will eventually end up playing. I am not sure how serious people are when they say that they think that Wargaming does indeed hate every class but battleships and that they will take away everything that hurts them, but I think that there is something larger going on here. The Worcester and the changes to the Japanese 100 mm guns are the causes of my suspicions. WG's newest trophy ships the Conqueror and the Republique are incredibly vulnerable to these ships with their 32 mm plates which makes it such that the Worcester and upcoming Harugumo are and will be excessively effective against these battleships thanks to their insane DPM. They are also incredibly effective against just about every cruiser contemporary and precedent to them, but that is a part of the larger argument. For now, I think that we should discuss a long and recurring issue of battleship camping and the cruisers that camp with them. The Failed Experiment The Kurfurst was something of a contentious ship when she was first released. There was the fact that she was large enough to have her own orbit and the armor to rival a Pacific Rim mech, this was to say nothing of her hydroacoustic search and her nearly invisible citadel. Back when she was first released, battleships without citadels were virtually unheard of and even the old Tirpitz could quite easily expose hers in close ranged brawling scenarios. The fact that she took 'only' 10-20k damage from incoming enemy fire was utterly unheard of. Sustaining a battleship broadside as a Yamato or a Montana at this age meant 40k damage if not instant death. This resilience, combined with her general immunity to the HE ammunition of every cruiser at the time as well as her ability to negate battleship AP to a large extent makes her incredibly strong at close ranged combat. This, combined with her secondary suite and her less than stellar main battery performance, made her the ideal ship to take into close combat. It didn't matter back then if half of her shells missed a broadsiding battleship 10 km away because it only took 2-3 citadel hits to irreparably cripple a battleship (the kinds of damage to outright kill a cruiser, but conversation for another day) which made things very simple. An American or Japanese battleship drawn into a closed range fight with a Kurfurst is dead. If they attempt to turn and run, they'll face 12 battleship caliber guns right into their broadside. If they tried to maintain their bow on position, they'll be roasted and shredded by the countless batteries of secondary guns. She could theoretically fix the problem with gameplay stasis. Whereas former battleships risked themselves far too much pushing in deeply to dislodge an enemy battleship, the Kurfurst will gain forewarning from torpedoes and her bow will protect her from incoming fire and when she opens up with her guns with admittedly poor angles, perhaps the only genuine mark of vulnerability that the battleship had, the enemy battleships would die right there. Less Stasis than Ever I promised to talk about the Haragumo and the Worcester and how they interact with the Conqueror and the Republique. Both of these ships are perhaps the largest oddity that made me reconsider my initial assumption that Wargaming was simply aiming to persistently make battleships more and more dominant in every task imaginable. These two ships are exceptionally well designed to deal with battleships like the British and the French tree crowns which is somewhat against the conceit that Wargaming wants to create a master class of ships that would dominate everything. On the other hand, I believe that Wargaming has made good on their attempt to make battleships tank more which is a bold claim to be sure. That said, I believe that I could vindicate this claim. I personally see the existence of ships that exists basically solely to either farm damage or exists to have their health pool farmed at little actual strategic implications for themselves to be an escalating problem. This is unlikely to turn around however. The impending changes to carriers will dispose of yet another decisive tactical option in the game and the introduction of yet another destroyer line with a hydroacoustic suite will heavily neuter yet another. This is something that is arguably more insidious than simply catering to the lowest rungs of players in the battleship class. Already ships that inflict continuous and undeniable damage such as the Hindenburg are held in much higher competitive regard than strategically stronger ships such as the Zao or the Minotaur as the game, more and more, continues to make the easiest and most mindless options the inherently better one. This, unlike many issues in regards to interclass balance, is unlikely to change soon. I can't help but feel we are approaching an age where dealing damage against not just cruisers but also battleships will become easy, but making that damage actually matter will only become harder and harder. The class getting screwed over the most by this whole fiasco is the cruisers again of course, their thin skin and relative visibility stopping them from being able to avoid the likes of the close to unavoidable DPM of the Worcester and the Harugumo. The game is moving away from cleverly using armor and maneuverability to defeat the enemy towards just pumping as many shells into the enemy as possible until they die and I think that is a real shame.
  6. It was only a matter of time before Lert would write an article about one of the two Dutch cruisers that fought and were lost in the Battle of the Java Sea. Again all credits go to him, I merely copy-paste it with his permission to the EU forum. ------------------------- With the recent announcement of a pan-european nation in the game, I thought it time to introduce another candidate for inclusion. This time, the Java class of Light cruisers. Java herself, in 1921 In the early 1910s, the Dutch navy recognized a need to construct several new, up to date, light cruisers to patrol the Pacific ocean, near what was then the Dutch Indies. To this end, the Java class was designed by Germaniawerft in Kiel, Germany, to a design mandate that specified a ship potent enough to take on and out class the then recent Japanese Chikuma class. Three ships of a powerful, modern design were ordered. The first two ships designed and laid down in the Netherlands, a third and slightly larger version - to be named Celebes - was canceled before being laid down. Materials gathered for the construction of Celebes were later used in the construction of de Ruyter. However, though modern and powerful when they were designed, there were several delays that pushed back their commissioning, and by the time the two ships of the Java class that were completed entered service they were outdated. These ships were: HNLMS Java, laid down May 1916, commissioned May 1925, sunk February 1942 HNLMS Sumatra, laid down July 1916, commissioned May 1926, scuttled June 1944 After completion, Java herself sailed from the Netherlands to the Dutch Indies and arrived at Tanjung Priok on December 7th, 1925. She spent most of the years up to WWII patrolling the region, appearing at fleet events and fulfilling general PR functions. She appeared at fleet days in Surabaya, Tanjung Priok and Singapore. In 1937, during the Spanish civil war she undertook convoy escort duties in the straight of Gibraltar. In 1938 she collided with the Admiralenclass destroyer Piet Hein and underwent repairs in Surabaya. During WWII she performed escort duties in conjunction with British forces. She took part in the battle of Badung Strait which she survived unscathed, but during the Battle of the Java Sea she was hit by a torpedo from Nachi that blew off her stern, cut off her electrics and caused major flooding and damage. Fifteen minutes after the torpedo struck she sank, with 512 out of 526 crew not surviving the sinking. Sumatra meanwhile deployed to Shanghai to attend to the rising tensions between Nationalists and Communists, in 1927. A landing party of 140 men from the ship took up position in Shanghai's business quarter. Afterwards, Sumatra returned to Surabaya in the Dutch East Indies on 12 May 1927. During an unspecified event one of her turbines was damaged, and she spent some time in Surabaya undergoing a refit and repair before returning to duty in 1930. However, a fire in a boiler room during post-refit trials saw her return to Surabaya for further repairs. Later refits saw her four 75mm AA guns replaced by six 40mm ones. She spent the rest of the pre-war years accompanying Java on various PR duties, until sailing for the Netherlands in 1939, just before the war broke out. It was during WWII that Sumatra met her fate, though she survived longer than her ill-fated sister did. At the outbreak of war she sailed to England along with other remnants of the Dutch fleet still in national waters. There she was outfitted with a degaussing cable to help protect her against magnetic mines. She spent the early years of the war waiting for an extensive refit that never materialized, and in 1942 sailed for Ceylon, being capable of only 15 knots. Later in that same year she made her way back to Portsmouth where she was laid up. Problems with her propulsion prevented her from fulfilling front line duties. In 1944 Sumatra was scuttled off the coast of Normandy, and her 150mm guns were used to replace old, worn guns on Flores class gunboats. HNLMS Sumatra sunk as block ship. So what would these ships look like in game? For purposes of this thread I will treat them like tier 3 light cruisers. Tonnage: 8087 tons full load. This gives us 24.900 hit points rounded. A sizable chunk for tier 3, putting her ahead of most of her competition apart from St Louis, who still has just shy of 5.000 hit points on her. Armor: Though this image shows the armor profile, it lacks the thickness values. For those, we look to Wikipedia, which gives us the following numbers: 75mm belt 25 to 50mm deck 125mm conning tower 100mm shields Where I assume 'shields' means gun shields, for her main armament. Some values are not mentioned, like any upper belt, or the values of her turtleback armor. However, if we look at the design for de Ruyter, we find values of 13mm for the weather deck and 30mm for the turtleback. I find these values completely reasonable for use in Java. Finally, as a tier 3 light cruiser, she would have 6mm fore- and aft end plating. This is a very soft armor profile, typical of the tier. Her turtleback would give her a small measure of longevity against cruiser AP, but with an above water citadel she would not be very survivable. Only at close-ish range and against cruiser level AP would her armor profile give her a small measure of resilience. For the rest, fairly typical of the type and tier. Main armament: 10x Bofors 150mm /50 These are nominally the same guns as found on de Ruyter. However, they use an older mount and are listed with a slightly lower rate of fire of 5rpm, for a 12 second reload. Plus, despite the fact that 10x 150mm sounds pretty potent, the layout of the guns - two superfiring afore, two superfiring aft, six in wing mounts, three a side - means that she could only bring 7 to bear to a broadside. If we take de Ruyter's values for damage and fire chance and account for the general build of the ship, including the height of the main fire director, we get the following values: 12s reload 22.5s traverse time 900 mps muzzle velocity 2200 HE dmg, 12% fire chance 3100 AP dmg 12.5km range 119m dispersion 77.000 broadside HE DPM 108.500 broadside AP DPM These are low DPM numbers for tier 3 light cruisers, barely keeping pace with those found on Tenryu, which has torpedoes to supplement her gunnery. However, if we think back to de Ruyter, I gave her improved autobounce angles and a shorter fuse time to increase the effectiveness of her gunnery, based on the fact that she carried British made shells. I believe that it wouldn't be out of place to implement the same values here. After all, they use essentially the same gun, with the same shells. As far as I know, Java and Sumatra also used British made 150mm shells during the second world war. 5ms fuse time (compared to 33ms on normal cruiser AP) 60 ~ 75 degree ricochet angles before normalization (compared to 45 ~ 60 on normal cruiser AP) This I believe would give her AP a nudge in efficiency, allowing Java to make herself count despite a relatively low DPM. Auxilliary armament: 8x Bofors 40mm for 61 dps at 3.5km 8x .50 M2 MG for 30 dps at 1.2km Java received 8x Bofors 40mm during her service, Sumatra 6x. As far as I can tell, both ships carried eight Browning .50. This is a very decent AA suite for tier 3, mostly owing to the ships being in service during WWII while tiered to fight WWI ships. Maneuverability: 31 knots These ships managed 31 knots out of their triple shaft, 73.000 shp drive train. Being larger and considerably heavier than, say, Tenryu class cruisers, I would give them more sluggish agility than their Japanese tier-mates: 580m turn radius 56s rudder shift Concealment: A fairly large cruiser for her tier, this would show in her concealment. 9.5km by sea 5.4km by air Consumables: Standard tier 3 cruiser Damage Control Party. Nothing else really needed. The historical ship carried planes, but as far as I know, no steam catapult was carried. Instead the planes were lifted overboard and took off from the water. I don't think a plane consumable is needed at the tier, so I wouldn't give Java one. Upgrade slots: Tier 3 standard, two slots, the 125k and 250k options. Play style: She would play like a fast, flexible light cruiser with broadside alpha rather than DPM. Every other cruiser at tier would fire faster than her, and she'd be lagging a bit in DPM causing her to lose any direct slugging match with a same tiered cruiser, thus relying on range and mobility to keep enemy fire off of her. She'd be an opportunist, staying at range and raining down shells on otherwise pre-occupied targets. Conversely she can close in and stay angled, making her turtleback armor and improved AP performance count against same tier, same type ships. Her consumables wouldn't give her an edge in any engagement. For the most part she'd offer a very straight-forward play style. Elephant in the room: I find it funny that in the 20 years between Java's design being finalized and de Ruyter being built, we went from an 8000-ish ton, 30-odd knot, soft, light cruiser with 7x 150mm broadside to a .... 8000-ish ton, 30-odd knot, soft, light cruiser with a 7x 150mm broadside. Realistically if you massage Java's reload to, say, 9 seconds, she'd make a better fit at tier 4 than de Ruyter would, and be more era appropriate, to boot. This really goes to show what a bad design de Ruyter really is, when a ship 20 years her senior is, in most respects, also her equal. And that's with a ship that was considered outdated when she was commissioned, like Java was. So in short: Pros: More competitive design for her era than her more famous counterpart de Ruyter Heavy broadside Fast Has the pedigree / tragic history Good AA Lots of information available on her design Turtleback armor Cons: Very low tier Not very flexible in terms of armaments Fairly standard, offers nothing novel Limited use as captain training ship, both due to tier and to nationality What would she cost, if implemented at tier 3? Peanuts. About $10 for the bare ship with port slot. Hell, make her a reward ship. What camouflage would she wear? Best I can find out, this is what she wore when sunk in 1942: (click for exceedingly, obnoxiously hyoog version) This camo would have the standard bonuses: -3% detectability by sea +4% dispersion incoming fire -10% post-battle service cost +50% XP In closing: Thank you for reading this, thanks to @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me nail down the format for these threads and some details for Java, @Fr05ty for helping me nail down statistics and @Snowyskies for helping me find design schematics. Sources used: ------------------------- Maybe not the most interesting ship because of her tier, but it's one of the better known Dutch ships. Besides, she saw action and that's something we don't always see with new releases.
  7. Because of some stupid forum bug I keep on doubleposting new topics, so this is a good opportunity to edit one of the Java topics into a Maya one. Well, merely copying Lert's original post on NA, as usual. I'm way too lazy to do the research myself. ------------------------- Hello and welcome to what is the third installment of what I intended to be a one shot, but is quickly turning into a series. These threads discuss how ships that are not yet in the game could fit, much like dseehafer's ADLA series. However, in these threads I will go much more in depth and discuss not just a loose interpretation of tiering, but go into the nitty gritty of different stats, homogenize a play style, go into pros and cons, discuss a ship's service history, and discuss how it might fit in the meta. Previous installments: Witte de With as T6 Dutch Destroyer De Zeven Provincien as T8 Dutch Light Cruiser In this thread I will be discussing the Japanese Takao class heavy cruiser Maya. Maya was the third of four Takao class cruisers, laid down in 1928, launched in 1930 and commissioned in 1932. She was a fairly standard Takao class cruiser, already in this game as Atago and ARP Takao. However, she was refit several times during her service life and ended up as the most uniquely configured of the four Takao class ships, and it's this 1944 configuration that I wish to discuss today. Her service history is long and storied, and it would be too much work to just retype it from Wikipedia, so instead I'm just going to quote the relevant aspects from her Wikipedia page. Because of its length I've put it under a spoiler as well. Reveal hidden contents But why Maya? The Takao class is already represented in the game, and we already have a whole slew of Myoko's as well, which are very similar, as the Takao was slightly upgraded version of the Myoko class to begin with. Same hull, same armament, same propulsion, same armor. Well, yes, but the various refits Maya enjoyed during her service life diverged her so far from the Myoko and Takao standard that she could almost have been considered a class of her own. Maya differed more from Takao and Myoko than Takao did from Myoko. It is the purpose of this thread to propose Maya as Tier 7 premium heavy cruiser for the Japanese, incorporating elements of Myoko and Atago into an all-round ship with a more balanced armament than any other Japanese cruiser in this game. Let us begin. Tonnage: 15.490 ton full load, slightly more than Atago's 14.851 tons. The difference is negligable though, and as such I would give her 40.200 hit points, 100 more than Atago. Armor: The Takao class armor is a known factor in World of Warships. It's virtually identical to Myoko's armor layout, apart from the extremity plating thickness and torpedo bulge thickness. The difference in plating thickness is explained by the difference in tier, the difference in torpedo bulge thickness is a difference between the classes, though it is curious to me why Atago has a thinner torpedo bulge than Myoko. Since I am arguing for Maya at tier 7, she would inherit Myoko's thinner 16mm extremity plating vs 25mm and Myoko's thinner 13mm superstructure vs Atago's 16mm, but since she's a Takao class she would inherit Atago's thinner torpedo bulge thickness of 13mm vs 21mm. The rest of her armor scheme would be identical to that of Atago. This gives us a 102mm armor belt, 41mm central deck, 35 - 47mm citadel deck armor and above water central citadel. This amalgamation of Myoko and Takao's armor schemes would give her a middle ground survivability, where angling, range, speed and maneuverability means life. Shes vulnerable to broadside AP, but that's common for all Japanese cruisers versus tier appropriate AP shells. Main Armament: During the last months of her life Maya carried a reduced main armament compared to the four Myokos and her three Takao class sisters. The number 3 turret was removed in favor of additional 127mm DP and 25mm AA mounts. As such, she carried 4x 2 203mm/50 3rd year guns, firing 3300 dmg HE shells with 17% fire chance and a 4700 dmg AP shell. These guns are a very well known quantity in this game, featuring on every Japanese heavy cruiser in this from the upgraded Furutaka to the Ibuki. Since Maya is a Takao class, she will inherit the Atago's gun handling, accuracy and range. However, for the purposes of this thread I'm going to slightly massage the rate of fire, to partially make up for the lack of two barrels and slow reload inherent to the Takao class ships in this game. Instead of a base 16s reload as on Atago, I will give her a 15s one, owing to the various refits. She will ofcourse have the same buffed Japanese fire chance on her 203mm shells. This gives her 142m dispersion at 15.8km range, a 29s traverse time, 105.600 HE DPM and 150.400 AP DPM. This is very low DPM for a tier 7 heavy cruiser. In fact, it places her firmly at the bottom of the tier in terms of damage potential per minute from just her guns. However, I believe that this disparity in DPM is made up for in other areas. Not the least of which: Auxilliary armament: 6x 2 127mm/40 Type 89 Dual Purpose 13x 3 25mm Type 96 AA 27x 1 25mm Type 96 AA 36x 13.2mm Type 93 AA The 127mm guns are the same as on the Myoko and Atago, but will inherit Atago's performance numbers, namely a 5s reload, 5.5km range, 2100 dmg HE shell with 8% fire chance in the secondary role and the additional mounts bring the AA DPS up to 60 at 5km. The 25mm mounts are in the game already, and will add up to 153 DPS at 3.1km. Finally, the 13.2mm MGs will add up to around 110 DPS at 1.2km. This is a decent secondary suite wth the additional 127mm mounts, and an off the charts AA potential for a Japanese heavy cruiser, especially at tier. However, is AA alone enough to make up for the disparity in DPM compared to her tier mates? Well, maybe if you combine it with: Torpedoes: 4x 4 610mm Type 90 Mod 1 The same torpedo layout as Atago, with four mid-ships mounted quad launchers, each covering a quadrant. This is a much more convenient and usable torpedo complement than Myoko gets at tier 7. Players who have Atago will know what I mean. Not only do you have one more fish per launcher, but the angles you can fire them at are far more useful than in most Japanese cruisers as well. Still not sure this is enough to make up for the lowest DPM of her type / tier though ... Maneuverability: As a Takao class she will inherit Atago's maneuverability statistics. 35.5 knot top speed, 790m turning radius, 8.1s rudder shift time. This is hardly the stuff of legends, but then, the Takao class were big ships. The top speed gives it an amount of tactical flexibility that the German and American cruisers in this game lack, but the turning circle holds her back from greatness. Concealment: As a Takao class, Maya will inherit Atago's buffed concealment compared to Myoko. This puts her at 11.5km by sea and 8.7km by air. Consumables: I would give Maya a standard suite of heavy cruiser consumables, starting with a standard Damage Control Party in slot 1 and Defensive Fire suite in slot 2. I would then add a standard Hydroacoustic Search option in slot 3, and a Fighter Plane in slot 4. I can see an argument for a spotter plane as well. Finally, she would not get Atago's heal. I believe that with her armor profile and health at tier 7, she does not need it. Upgrade slots: Standard T7, 4 slots, up to the 1m upgrade option. Play style: Maya would be a balanced heavy cruiser, with a slight emphasis on torpedoes over gunnery. She would still have the potential to start fires and deliver crushing AP salvos, but over prolonged engagements her lacking DPM would start to count. Fitting in at tier 7 and lacking the fifth upgrade slot, her concealment can be brought down to 10.1km by sea. This just barely prevents her from stealth firing her torpedoes, something her more heavily armed sister ship at tier 8 can do - if only just. Still, for a ship this fast, potent and large to have a 10.1km surface detection range at tier 7 is very good. Maya has a particularly potent AA suite, but it's more suited for self defense rather than fleet escorting, owing to the short range of her medium and short range bubbles. Specing heavily into AA can mitigate a lot of that and make her a decent AA picket ship, but she'll never be as good at that as some of the American cruisers. Finally, her suite of consumables further cements her as an all-rounder. She avoids Myoko's weaknesses by having a more comfortable turret traverse and torpedo armament a well as a potent AA suite, but pays for those conveniences with having the lowest DPM of her type / tier. She's a jack of all trades, master of none. Just don't get caught flat footed by the heaviest torpedo armament of any cruiser at tier. Elephant in the room: Not sure I would call this an elephant in the room, it's just something that might cause WG some pause. But, remember when I said that Maya was different enough from Myoko and Atago to almost be considered a class of her own? Although they share the same hull, turret layout and funnel locations, that's where the similarities stop and WG would have to research and model basically the entire superstructure from scratch. Observe the differences below: Myoko: Atago: Maya: As you can see, Maya's superstructure is considerably bulkier than that of either Myoko or Atago. This is because between all her refits Maya never got the one that slimmed down her superstructure that made the Takao class initial design so top heavy. Maya launches, 1930 So, in short: Pros: T7 premium cruiser, something the IJN lacks Balanced play style, if a bit heavy on the torpedo armament Potent AA suite Beefy, good looking ship Majority of modeling work is already done As is balancing - we know how the hull and the weaponry behaves Cons: AA potential requires heavy captain skill investment to make count Captain training potential is suspect because of diverging playstyle and emphasis on torpedo armament rather than gunnery Not quite a copy-paste job, so requires investment and time on WGs part to implement Damage sustained at Guadalcanal, 1943 What would she cost, if implemented at tier 7? Similar to any T7 cruiser, around $42 for the ship and a slot. What camouflage would she wear? As far as I know the Japanese didn't really do much in the way of camouflage for their ships and I don't know if Maya ever wore one. One might suggest the ARP Maya camouflage, but since the collaboration between ARP and WG has ended a long time ago that's very unlikely to happen. That leaves a fantasy green or blue wavy camouflage not unlike that of Atago or the more subdued three-tone permacamo on Myoko. Personally I quite like Myoko's and would suggest WG give Maya something very similar. Possible tweaks should she prove either under- or overpowered during testing: I have made various assumptions and balance choices based on my experience in the game, however, many of these are open to balancing should that be needed. In case of needed nerfs one could lower her ROF down to Atagolevels, or tweak her firing range due to a different superstructure thus possibly different location of the fire control director. Should she need a buff they might consider tweaking the concealment or ROF, giving her Atago's heal or the fifth upgrade slot. My stats are just a proposal, they are open to weaking. Closing words: Thank you all for indulging me in another proposal for a premium ship and thank you for the taking the time to read it. Finally a thank you to @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me with the article itself. Sources used: Finally, because I have to ------------------------- Personally I welcome unique ships. AA will be reworked though, so there is nothing to say (yet) in that regard. As for the camouflage I would suggest this one myself. This is Takao, and then at least it's shared with a ship of the same class. Really a missed opportunity that this was not among the permanent camouflages that became available for Atago last patch. Anyway, I'm curious what you think about the Maya.
  8. The third topic made by Lert on NA that I decided to copy to EU. Here's the link for the people that want to see the original topic on NA. So nót my idea, but an idea by Lert. He gave me permission to copy his proposals to the EU forum. ------------------------- In which I discuss my proposal for a Dutch T8 light cruiser premium, namely de Zeven Provincien, commissioned in 1953: De Zeven Provincien was one of two ships in her class, the other being de Ruyter. Sort-of. You see, these ships changed names a few too many times during their service life. The ship I'm going to discuss in this thread was ordered in 1938 as 'Kruiser 2' as part of the Eendracht class of cruisers, laid down in 1939 as Kijkduin and named Eendracht in 1940. When the Germans invaded they captured the 25% complete ship and planned to finish her as KH2. However, this project was never completed. In 1945 she was named Eendracht once again, though in 1950 she was renamed De Zeven Provincien to a very different design than the original Eendracht draft. She was commissioned in 1952 and sold to Peru in 1975, there renamed Aguirre. She was finally decomissioned and scrapped in 2000. For the purposes of this thread I will refer to her as De Zeven Provincien, or D7P. De Zeven Provincien is actually a very weighty name in the Netherlands, as it refers to the original seven provinces that declared their independence in the Unie van Utrecht in 1579, the first step in achieving independence of what eventually would become the Netherlands. It was also the name of admiral Michiel de Ruyter's flagship, a 1665 vintage, 80 gun ship of the line. Michiel de Ruyter is considered the greatest Dutch admiral ever and one of the greatest admirals in world history. His exploits is why there have been ships named de Ruyter in Dutch naval service almost interrupted for the past 200 years. So you can imagine what weight de Zeven Provincien name carries in Dutch naval history. It's a name reserved for only the best and greatest ships in our tiny country's navy, and the ship I'm talking about today truly counted. She was modernized in the 1980s and given guided missiles, but for the purposes of this thread I'll be looking at D7P as she was commissioned. Commissioned in 1953 and sailing in Dutch service until 1975, she never fired her guns in anger. She did partake in many NATO exercises and served as flagship during some of them. As such her service life is not very interesting. Moving on. So what would she look like in game? For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to argue for D7P as a T8 CL, based on long range, rapid-fire gun power and a potent AA suite. Tonnage: 11930 tons full load gives us 32100 hit points, rounded. This puts her a bit behind ships like Cleveland and Chapayev, both boasting about 37k HP, and Kutuzov with her 40k HP. Even the light weight Edinburgh has her beat with 36k HP. However, due to her play style, this low hit point total is less of a problem than one might think. Armor: De Zeven Provincien would be a very soft and weakly armored ship, to say the least. A 76mm belt at best with 50mm upper belt, a slight 30mm turtleback, 10mm fore- and aft deck and a 20mm main deck. The conning tower and turrets both had up to 125mm armor. The citadel would've been at the waterline, but any large caliber, high angle fire would easily smash through the 15mm side plating or 50mm upper belt and through the 30mm citadel roof. This ship was about as 'well protected' as Omaha, and we all know how squishy that ship is, even at tier 5. For the purposes of this game the fore-end and aft plating and weather deck would likely be artificially increased to 25mm to bring it in line with the other T8 CL, but this wouldn't be enough to make the ship 'tough'. At best it'll help deflect cruiser caliber AP fire at sharp angles. Main armament: 4x 2 152mm Bofors kanon M/42 These are late 1930s vintage guns, originally ordered by the Dutch for the Eendracht class cruisers. Post-war these guns received new mounts and new loading systems, allowing them to be used as dual purpose artillery and giving them a higher rate of fire. These fired a 45kg projectile at 900 mps. The listed rate of fire is 10 rpm in the anti-surface role up to 15 rpm in the AA role. These guns do not exist in the game yet and information on them is scarce. For example, I can't find the weight of bursting charge used in these shells. However, their mass is known, 45 kg, and as such I can compare them to other 152mm shells in the game and make an educated guess as to their performance compared to those of other ships in this game. What I find when comparing these guns to other in-game 6" guns is that the D7P fired very light shells. For example, Cleveland fired a 59kg AP shell and even Duca D'aosta a 50kg one. D7P's shells being so light means that they likely carried a smaller bursting charge and thus would do less damage than even Duca D'aosta's guns. Since the Duca's AP shells are listed at 3200 dmg and Cleveland's at 3300, I would give D7P's AP shells 3100 dmg. Fortunately the HE shells are easier to compare, since Cleveland's HE shells are of very similar weight. As such I would estimate D7P's HE shells to have a similar 2200 dmg and 12% fire chance. With 8 barrels and 10 RPM this gives us 248k AP DPM and 176k HE DPM, but how does that compare that to the other light cruisers at tier 8? (thanks @LittleWhiteMouse) D7P falls hopelessly behind in the T8 CL DPM race. However, remember when I said that the guns had 10 RPM in the anti-surface role and 15 RPM in the AA role? This is likely to do with the loading system delivering shells in a position optimized for high angle loading, meaning that against surface targets the loading system needs time to rotate the shells to a more horizontal position, taking up valuable time. However, this is true for all naval guns with an automated loading system, as shown in this famous animation: Wargaming has always ignored the need to elevate / depress barrels to the optimal loading position and always used the optimal rate of fire numbers for each gun, regardless of elevation levels or range to target. So it stands to reason that Wargaming would be more likely to use the 15 RPM number for D7P's guns than the 10 RPM number. At 15 RPM we get 372k AP DPM 264k HE DPM. These numbers would put D7P way ahead of any other CL at tier and make her more suitable for tier 9 or even tier 10 placing. However, the hull is simply not suited for that kind of tier. It's already pushing it a little bit to put her at tier 8. So what I propose is that WG use a middling 12.5 RPM. This gives us 310k AP DPM and 220k HE DPM. These numbers are competitive with the other T8 CL without going too much overboard, especially considering the hull having a low amount of hit points and very soft armor. The shel ballistics too make this high DPM less of an advantage than it seems on paper. Despite a high muzzle velocity of 900 mps these shells are the lightest 152mm at tier, and thus lose a lot of velocity over distance, making short range gunnery very comfortable but long range gunnery floaty and challenging to reliably put warheads on foreheads at range. Her height of mast and the location of her main fire director likely means very good firing range, likely at least 18km. Finally, she would likely have very competitive dispersion with high sigma owing to a very modern, 1950s era fire control system. Auxilliary armament: 4x 2 Bofors 57mm /60 8x Bofors 40mm /60 The double 57mm /60 mounts are already in the game on Republique, where they're given 306 dpm at 4.5km for 12x 2 mounts. D7P carried a third of those, so would get 102 dpm at 4.5km from these. The 40mm /60 are as far as I remember not yet in the game, but would, according to @Fr05ty have about the same effectiveness of the existing 40mm /56 mount, for approx. 95 dpm at 3.5km estimated. That's already a respectable AA bubble, especially if you consider DFAA. But the 152mm guns were dual purpose, thus would count towards the AA bubble as well. It's difficult to estimate the dpm output and range they would have though, but if we compare the damage output in the anti-surface role with, say, Minotaur's main battery DPM in the anti-surface role and in the anti-air we can at least make a semi educated guess. Minotaur puts out almost double the anti-surface DPM as D7P at 12.5 RPM, so Minotaur's 152mm AA DPS of 118 would also be sliced almost in half for 65 DPS at 6km for D7P's main battery AA DPS. This is just an estimate, at best a ballpark number. So 65 DPS at 6km, 160 total DPS at 4.5km and 262 total DPS at 3.5km. Those are pretty respectable numbers, but become very nasty if you take DFAA and Manual AA into account. Speed: 32 knots. The base bottom for 'decent' cruiser speed at that tier. In terms of agility I would give her a relatively quick rudder as well as a relatively small turning circle owing to being a modern and very light design. Let's say 6s base rudder shift and a 640m turning radius. This puts her in the upper end of maneuverability for T8 light cruisers without going overboard, or forgetting that this is a relatively big ship. Concealment: This is a large ship with tall masts. She'll likely have bad concealment. While lighter than Cleveland, she's taller and likely more visible. In fact, her height of mast is comparable to that of Mikhail Kutuzov, meaning that she likely has similar concealment. Kutuzov boasts 14.1km by sea and 9.3 by air, with her premium camouflage but no other factors like upgrades or captain skills. Why does mast height matter so much for concealment as well as firing range? Well, in real life the ocean is curved, because the earth is round. The taller your masts and the higher up the fire director, the further your horizon is and the further you can see, but also the sooner you're seen by others. Consumables: Let's get the elephant out of the room: this ship would not get radar. Regardless of my personal opinion about radar, adding more radar ships to the game would lead to an increase of complaints on the forum. So I've elected not to propose radar for this ship. That leaves the following consumable suite. We'll start by your standard complement of Damage Control Party and Defensive AA. Because this is a very modern but very flimsy ship, I'd add a repair party. Standard like on Atago and Eugen if sufficient, RN Superheal if necessary for balance. Since this ship had no provisions for an airplane, I would give her smoke to round out her consumable suite. Playstyle: De Zeven Provincien would be a long range firebreather, if anything. With a soft hull and low health she's forced to stay back and try to make herself as unappetizing a target as possible. Fortunately her maneuverability, heal and smoke consumable help with this play style. Finally, her ballistics are sufficient to hit targets at medium to longer ranges with her initially very good muzzle velocity, but gunnery will become more difficult the further out a target is due to her light shells. And if a target presents itself at closer range, she has the AP DPM and short range muzzle velocity to rip them asunder with withering fire. With her DFAA on a potent AA suite she would make an excellent AA picket ship, and her speed - while unimpressive in its own right - is still sufficient to keep up with the battleships. She also has the agility to dodge long range incoming fire, especially from battleships, meaning that her low hit points pool is less of an issue than it first appears to be. As such, this is truly the supportiest of support ships, with every aspect of her play style pushing her towards this role. Elephant in the room: There were two ships of this class, de Ruyter and de Zeven Provincien. This gives us one ship for the tech tree and one as premium. Problem solved, right? Well, no. A Dutch cruiser tree is likely going to have the 1930s de Ruyter at tier 4, meaning that we can't have de Zeven Provincien's sistership de Ruyter in the tech tree nor as premium, at least, not under that name. So how to solve this? I would propose that Wargaming introduce de Zeven Provincien as T8 premium, and include her sister de Ruyter in the tech tree under the name Kijkduin. "But wait, wasn't Kijkduin one of the names used for de Zeven Provincien, and not de Ruyter?" Yes, but one of the names used for de Ruyter during its equally long construction process was de Zeven Provincien. There were two of these ships built, and it would be a shame to pass up the opportunity for a built-in-steel, has-served, T8 premium cruiser for the Dutch. Whichever way you spin it, Wargaming is going to have to apply some creativity in naming the tech tree ship vs the premium ship, but I would consider it a great shame if they elected not to introduce this premium only because it would create some confusion with the name. Plus, it's not like we don't have precedence for the exact same ship appearing in the game twice under a new name. Isn't that right Krasny Krymand Admiral Makarov? Finally, tech tree ships are often an amalgamation of various in-class sister ships anyways, rather than being a specific one out of the series. So, in short: Pros: - Has served a long service life of almost 50 years (Her sister served almost 65 years) - Dozens of pages of elaborate blueprints are readily available (Seriously, dozens. Check out the gahetna link in sources, linked at the bottom) - ROF range allows for easy re-balancing and re-tiering if needed to fill a hole - Every aspect of the ship points to a singulearplay style, no 'bote schizophrenia' here - Is a majestic ship with great lines. Cons: - Dutch nation not in game - Likely limited appeal due to this - Limited appeal as captain trainer - No truly legendary historical feats, served only in peace time Like with my Witte de With proposal the greatest hurdle to overcome is to convince the highly USN centric NA server of the necessity to include ships that would likely appeal to very few of the players here based purely on nationality, and with very limited captain training potential to boot. The ship has to appeal to people on its own merit, of a rapid-fire, reasonably maneuverable AA picket / fleet support ship. Unfortunately that is not a role that appeals to the average player, and the high skill floor and ceiling of this ship will likely mean that only the experienced and more skilled players would pick this ship up. However, I do still firmly believe that this ship has a place in the game, and while I would jump for joy if this ship is included in a Dutch cruiser tree, I think the more realistic option is as a premium either stand-alone like ORP Błyskawica or as captain trainer for a Pan-Eropean tree. Another option is to include D7P as Aguirre or D7P's sister de Ruyter as Almirante Grau as Peruvian ships in a pan-American tree. However, as Dutchman I would prefer to see her flying the Dutch flag, of course. What would she cost, if implemented at tier 8? Same as other T8 premium cruisers, around 10k ~ 11k doubloons, or $50 USD. "But I don't like the ship at T8!" I put her at T8 because of competitive DPM and a potent AA suite more than anything. I do admit the hull is more suited for T7 or even T6, being a late 1930s hull basically with 1950s powerplant and armament. I could see an argument for lowering her DPM and putting her in at T7. Likewise, the mounts were capable of 15 RPM, which would give a DPM more suitable to tier 9. However, personally, I wanted a T8 premium ship for the Dutch, and this was the most likely candidate. "But didn't you originally put her at tier 6?" Yes. I did. However, since then I learned a lot more about the ship itself, the weapons used, and about the game and game balance in general. T6 is simply too low a tier for a ship with this DPM, unless you pick the absolute lowest possible number, and gimp her in other ways. Even then you'd still have an AA suite that's way too potent for tier 6. What camouflage would she wear? Unfortunately I've not been able to find pictures of her wearing anything other than a standard, uniform, naval gray overcoat with black mast tops and a white C802 hull number on the bow. Closing words: Thank you all for reading another in-depth proposal for a Dutch ship. After Witte de With I just had to write up a proposal for this ship. I hope you find her as interesting as I do. Thank you @LittleWhiteMouse, @Snowyskies and @Fr05ty for helping make this proposal possible. Sources used: @Pigeon_of_War ------------------------- Another ship that I'd like to see in my port. I'm not a fan of camouflages never worn by the ship in question (or any of her sisterships), and wouldn't mind if WG either gave us the Hood/Tashkent option, or tweak the "credit camouflages" so that you could sail with a plain paint scheme. What's more important though is the tier where to place this ship if she'll come to game. I've already heard some arguments why she should be placed at a lower tier. On a sidenote: while De Zeven Provinciën was scrapped, her sistership De Ruyter still exists and was only decommissioned from the Peruvian Navy last year. While chances are very small, I still hope she'll return to the Netherlands one day as a museum ship.
  9. valoaa

    USS Seattle Gun Range wtf

    Just noticed when you unlock the USS Seattle B Hull the range is reduced by 0.9km from 14.3km to 13.4km (1km from 15.7km to 14.7km with the range upgrade.) What is this about? Can somebody explain this? Possible bug? (unlikely). I can't think of any other ship where this occurs. The guns are exactly the same - 152mm/47 D.P Mk17. Nor does the actual Artillery stat go down, it remains at 42/100.
  10. SoloMessina86

    Consiglio cruiser T10

    Salve ragazzi, vi chiedo consiglio su un argomento sicuramente trito e ritrito, di cui col tasto cerca ho trovato thread di utenti stranieri, ma che non hanno chiarito al 100% i miei dubbi. Posseggo già come cruiser T10 il Des Moines, che gioco stealth riparandomi tra le isole. Vorrei però ricercare un cruiser T10 che permetta un approccio diverso, e la mia attenzione si è soffermata su 2 cruiser: il Moskva e l"Hindenburg. Mi potreste consigliare quale tra i 2 merita di più, andando ad indicare caratteristiche principali di utilizzo, pregi e difetti? Grazie mille anticipatamente
  11. SoloMessina86

    Prinz Eugen

    Salve ragazzi, ho una domanda per voi: che voi sappiate, in Prinz Eugen è stato aggiornato e depotenziato di recente? tra l'altro avevo montato il potenziamento della batteria principale per aumentare la portata, ma adesso lo slot è vuoto e quel potenziamento non è più selezionabile (ce ne sono altri ma non quello). Grazie anticipatamente a chi mi risponderà
  12. Tuccy

    Update 0.7.6

    In the previous version, the American heavy cruisers underwent an upgrade. Pensacola, New Orleans, and Baltimore stepped down one tier, a newcomer—Buffalo—joined the ranks, and Cleveland jumped up two tiers, moving to the branch of light cruisers. Update 0.7.6 brings four new ships into the light cruisers branch: Tier VI Dallas, Tier VII Helena, Tier IX Seattle, and Tier X Worcester. What's inside? Light Cruisers ● Arsenal ● Operation Cherry Blossom ● Clan Battles ● Unique Upgrades ● Game Balance ● Maps ● Port of New York ● Content ● Other Fixes
  13. Which class determines victory? Answer the poll above - A really simple question which I find myself arguing over endlessly with clanmates. I find there is also a very big problem currently with the game because of my opinion on this. If equal numbers of ships on each team, which carries? Which class seriously and simply outright determines the outcome of a battle? We're talking random battles here and I've left carriers out of this poll on purpose.
  14. NothingButTheRain

    Playing tier 5

    Hi all. So I'm considered a noob by many, so I might as well ask here. Once I got to tier 5, I noticed a substantial amount of battles I am playing vs tier 7 ships. Now I recollect someone mentioned playing as tier 5 doesn't get you bottom tier battles more then being top tier, but now that I've got 4 tier 5 ships instead of 1 and played more battles in tier 5, I keep getting into tier 7 battles most of the time and getting chewed up, oneshotted, outspotted, the high masts of my ships makes me spottable even when behind an island, I get outranged, my torps have too few range and etc and etc. I play more badly because of this and this way I also get less XP and this way it takes longer to even get to tier 6. With battleships I at least can do something, even though I get outranged and with DD I can still do my usual DD stuff (but I still don't like being thrown into a meatgrinder most of the time). So I got 2 questions, basically. 1) How can I make the best of playing my tier 5 cruisers while being bottom tier? Will this get better once I get my own tier 7 ships? 2) Is there any particular reason why I'm put up against tier 7 ships in over half of all my tier 5 battles?
  15. SkullBreaker007

    New orleans after cruiser split?

    I have asked this question before about the clev and pepsi. But now I am grinding towards the new orleans. The cruiser solit is close as supertesters already have access to it. SO 1. What will happen to my ships if I have new orleans. 2. If I only research the new orleans and not buy it does the same rules apply. 3. Some tips for the pensacola I struggle in it :p
  16. Hi all, since our dearest fiend @Excavatus recently started a thread on Gneisenau, I got this brilliant idea to do the same on my newest crush, THE MOGAMI! Along the same lines, so asking for tips on the little bugger. I am currently getting about average games on it as far as I can make out, I usually score some 43-44k per game, but having a decent game seems to be very highly situational and of course one often ends up in tier 10 games, where it seems almost impossible to do anything more than to present a floating target for the big boys. What I have noticed so far: 1) Mogami is basically unarmored, with its citadel duct-taped to the main mast, if any BB so much as sneezes in your general direction (from any distance) you are toast. Also, the much advertised "Angling" seems to be utterly futile... I have never noticed any heavy shell of any caliber actually bouncing from anywhere or from any angle. They detonate very impressively tho. 2) And this is strange, is it just me or does this happen to everyone? Mogami is ALWAYS a priority target to be knocked the instant you fire your first salvo, regardless of if you are the first or the last one in you team to fire, every enemy will instantly drop everything they might be doing at the time and focus on you. What's up with that anyways? I have no idea what is going on here. 3) Good torps and concealment, so I often use it as a kind of an awkward super-sized torpedo-boat instead to harass oncoming enemy BB's but this only works, if they are coming towards you, so the opportunities are limited (also, please drive in straight lines and do not dodge). Placing torps to go behind islands to surprise oncoming enemy and torping Cruisers or DD hiding in smoke has also proved rewarding. 4) I use IFHE and 155mm guns, as I wanted a break from the usual 10*203mm IJN Cruiser configuration. It has been fun and sometimes quite a devastating DD hunter though the slow turret traverse somewhat hinders performance (and also the fact than once you start firing every enemy will immediately switch targets and begin focusing on me). Also works well on RN and other CL. I have used AP from short (roughly 10km or less) ranges on other CA with some success although it does not seem to work so well on higher tier (9 or 10) Cruisers but perhaps that is to be expected. 5) Due to the short 15km gun range, you always end up close to the front line and so it is pretty much impossible to just snipe and spam HE, one has to try and play aggressively within 12-15km range though that is risky and may instead lead to ignominious demise rather quickly. That said, I have also had some very good games just playing defensively (survive long enough and you will do more damage, of course). 6) I have tried to learn using islands for cover as much as possible, if there are any to be had in the middle of the map, so that I would fire a salvo, just before going behind it, then turn or break a little or if it seems like many are focusing on me stop behind it until concealed again. But many high tier maps are quite open and do not provide opportunities for such guerilla tactics. 7) WASD occasionally seems to make things even worse, since I get citadelled even when hit in the stern while wiggling my posterior as fiercely as I can. 8) AA is quite poor, so I opted just to config the ship with a hydro and choose the vigilance skill to help combatting DD's instead. Of course, this always seems like a bad idea, whenever there is a Carrier in play. I think I am slowly beginning to get the hang of it perhaps, but of course there are still way too many horrific disasters and far too few awesome successes to be quite sure. Any tips will be greatly appreciated.
  17. NO1Z3TR4UMA

    [Question] Omaha crew skill(s)

    Hey Fellow WoW Captains, Let's introduce myself a little bit (yeeeey my first topic on WoW), first i took a long brake from Warships (was playing more tanks and some other games), second after not playing 1 year and half maybe longer or maybe less i thought i would suck when playing again (1 week so far) but actually i had pretty good games on my Omaha so far anyway let' get to the point and explain my question. I've read (most posts were from 2016 or older) that allot of ppl use "Vigilance" skill for the 3th skill for Omaha tier 5 American cruiser. Personal i have a double feeling about that skill coz i rarely use my torpedoes and 25% bigger range its about 1 km more range if i didnt calculated wrong. Most of the time i'm lowest tier, if a tier 6- 7 comes closer i try to keep them on my maximum gun distance so i dont use torpedoes in this situation. When playing this game for 1 week, i used my torpedoes twice i know it's not allot but what do you think i should do? What is your opinion about the 3th skill on Omaha? Pls explain why, vigilance or..... ? Thanks in advance and big love on the forums but destruction in the water! *edit* You can always say what skills your captain have with a small explanation if you want :)
  18. Alighierian

    [MOD] Semi-rust free Zao

    After getting a bit tired of how rusty my trusty Zao was, I decided to make my own (mostly) rust-free skin. Whilst I did find other rust-free skins, I found them rather unsatisfactory, mostly because they removed all the details in the skin along with the rust. For this skin I removed the most noticeable rust, making the vessel look like she's actually being maintained, whilst keeping the details in the skin. Additionally I tried my hand at optimizing where the paint is visible, because that was also affected by the rust. Comparisons: http://i.imgur.com/yBWZaxe.jpg http://i.imgur.com/X3ywXrm.png Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/3zqziecjjt83bma/Rust-free_Zao.7z If there is interest I can do some requests and upload the other stuff I'm cleaning up. Removing algae build-up is pretty easy, but properly removing the rust takes a bit longer. Algae removal: http://i.imgur.com/CZ7OuoW.jpg
  19. Dirty_Filthy_Scrublord

    Do BB`s CL`s and DD`s need each other?

    When the game first came out, there was a premise that each ship class was to an extent reliant on the other class`s to perform well. For example...a BB alone will be vulnerable to a DD`s torps or a CV attack, so it is better to have a BB supported by a cruiser...the cruiser can provide AA cover and can aid in spotting torps and if a sneaky DD strays too close has the rapid and more accurate guns to better deal with a DD. Your friendly DD`s are great at forging ahead to spot enemies or capping, and launching surprise torp attacks, but they are vulnerable if attacked because of low HP and no armour....but here comes the cruiser to offer close fire support and the DD is not so vulnerable. And the eye in the sky CV, he can support everyone.....fighters to spot pesky DD`s sneaking up on a BB...torp drops not only to damage ships but to turn them into an even more vulnerable position of showing broadsides to your BB and cruiser team mates. It is both more complex and more simple than I could ever explain it, but each class of ship had a niche, had role to fill, had a job. Now, after a year those roles or jobs has blurred or even become surplus to requirements...how you ask. Well lets look at the toys and consumables that BB`s get now....Hydro...Radar....at higher tiers better AA than most cruisers can offer. So where does that leave the cruiser in this? out of a job is where it is, what can a cruiser offer that BB`s cannot? defensive fire? wont be too long until they give that toy to BB`s. Why is it that a top CV player avoids BB`s in favour of DD`s? even if that BB is isolated? because BB attacks have a cost in planes lost, and a DD attack generally doesn't. What I`m trying to get across is that each class of ship had its own identity, a clearly defined job within its fleet...and now that identity is being lost. Do I have the answer to this, one that everyone would look at and say "hell, that would work" probably not. Giving any ship class more and more toys/consumables will only make the problem worse, the classes are out of sync with each other...just look at the MM in a random match and you may see 6-7 BB`s 2 cruisers and 3-4 DD`s...that is out of balance...of course you`ll have a new line of ship come in and throw those numbers out of line again...but BB`s are so much less reliant on help or support from other classes that more people sail them. I`m not suggesting WG bring out the nerf bat and start swinging it wildly at the BB`s, but that they should look at why there are BB`s/cruisers/DD`s and CV`s in the game...diversity, choice, roles....reign back on the toys/consumables, bring back the synergy between the classes...the need for supporting each other...the team play. If WG continue to give more and more toys to any one class of ship, not just BB`s(sorry BB drivers, easiest ships to make my point) then it may come to pass that they may as well drop all ship classes and just have one that can do everything, and welcome in a time of tediousness. Having the choice of what class of ship you sail, what role you want to fill is a fundamental part of the fun in this game...and its slipping away. Lets hope WG actually do take a long hard look at the direction they are taking, the cynic in me doubts it...but still...you never know
  20. goodday i got the hindenburg recently and i want to know what is the best build for the cruiser/battlecruiser hindenburg
  21. Hello, I've came across this post again, and i was wondering if there is any updates on the situation, for I noticed many players dont even buy high tier ships, because of the high repair costs. (a tier8 cruiser for example, costs approx. 100k credits for full repair if not more) Couldnt find anything related on EU forums, so please enlighten me on the situation, i am convinced it would be nice to have a tad smaller repair cost overall, especially on tier9
  22. dasCKD

    The French Cruiser's Thing

    I'm back with a topic that no one should care about and writing about things that community managers should be doing in my place! Yay! -throws confetti- A quick retrospective on the British cruisers: So here we are, at the sixth cruiser line with the French. We have the Japanese with solid gun performance all round, powerful but difficult to use torpedoes, and very potent HE. We have the Americans, who specialized in AA before the endless patches turned the battleships that used to depend on them for defense into a far more potent source of AA than the cruisers as well as the Russians and the British in the higher tiers usurping their role there. We have the Germans, with their Frankenstein line with long ranges and good gun handling for very dangerous AP but substandard HE. We have the Russians, and their long range HE spamming and rapid firing guns at the cost of being easier to penetrate than the easiest [segment omitted] down at the ports. Then we have the British with their odd but powerful guns and smoke screens. Two HE lines. Two AP lines. One AA line. And now the French. The concept behind the cruisers perhaps works best if they are thought as as simply a subset of ships that are specialized but not in any mutual way as with the battleships or destroyers. Whilst WG might go the way of giving the French cruisers a flavor, something that is far more important in my opinion is the creation of roles for them. I think that the game works best if it works like natural selection in the wider world. If a certain species grows too large in number, then they will either die off or a predator species will grow in number as they feast on the growing prey numbers. I think, for the lack of a better description, that the new ships should be there as a tool to fight against an enemy that a large number of current ships need to face. The role of ships can be thought of as the following, to a very simple degree. Anti - destroyer Anti - battleship Anti - cruiser Support Objective Reconnaissance All ships can fulfill all roles to a larger or smaller extent, but that is what game balancing would ideally be in my opinion. These tasks are, in my personal opinion, a good way to evaluate how ships can decide the result of a match. Minotaurs are excellent at ripping destroyers to pieces and holding the line from inside of the smoke, but fighting against any other cruiser at standard cruiser engagement ranges will very quickly result in a very dead Minotaur. A Hindenburg is only slightly effective at dealing with non-British cruisers, mediocre against destroyers thanks to her quite poor HE, and only slightly effective at dealing with battleships due to her slow speed and large turning circles. She has insane AP alpha values, a very good hydro coupled with very good turret mechanization on a heavy cruiser, and excellent torpedo arcs and very dangerous close range guns however. This in, in my eyes, a balancing factor in a way. One ship is extremely good at a few things, but terrible at others. The other ship is in no way remarkable, but neither does she suffer in any specific area. Certain ships are simply better performers than their counterparts (e.g. Hindenburg VS Zao) but all ships are best at one of the five roles whilst suffering in others. The Zao for a start is decent at the first, excellent at the second, and good at the third but lacks any ability to fulfill objective and reconnaissance in any major way as front line Zaos are usually dead Zaos. So we come to the gimmick that goes to the French ships. The French cruisers, from what I've seen of them, are quite unremarkable. They appear to resemble either Clevelands in the case of their light cruisers or Hippers in the case of their heavy cruisers. Their speed is slow, peers with the British and Germans and certainly not anywhere near the Japanese or the Russians. Their armor is described as good for a cruiser though the Gloire's 120 mm side and 105 mm belt armor is rather significant for a light cruiser. No significant references were made to their AA capabilities. They're rather short for cruisers of their era, though not notably so. The role of light cruisers So, what should be the French light cruiser's "thing"? It took us a long time to get here didn't it? My ideas are generated rather simply. The French cruiser's thing will almost definitely have to be something to do with their ammunition. I do have one idea about a consumable, but that will be right at the bottom of the list. I will also not be stealing the British's gimmick as tempting as it is to transfer those traits to a ship line with serviceable armor. Incendiary HE Anti-battleship Suppressed Firing Penalty Anti-battleship No Citadel Anti-destroyer, Objective Speed Boost Objective Armor Objective, support Rapid Autoloading Anti-cruiser, anti-destroyer Right, I'm done. I shall eagerly await your indignant protests to my ideas below. Best regards.
  23. Whilst falling asleep, you have an awkward dream. A dream about something you never expect to come true. You sit in a slick Royal Navy cruiser, when just in front of you pops up.... but watch for yourself.
  24. ImperialAdmiral

    Agano class cruiser proposal

    Agano class cruiser Light cruiser Agano The Agano class cruisers were light cruisers build for the Imperial Japanese Navy as a replacement for the older classes of light cruisers as a part of Fourth Replenishment Program. Named after Japanese rivers they were beautiful, modern looking ships with a graceful deck lines. Designed as a flotilla leaders for the modern Japanese destroyer squadrons they were fast ships yet at the same time possesed underwhelming main gun armament of only 6x2 152 mm guns and weak armour protection. On the other hand they could be proud of their torpedo armament which featured two quadruple Type 92 torpedo mounts placed on the centerline of the ship which could fire a full broadside on either direction. Agano class construction Ship Build at Laid down Launched Completed Agano Sasebo NY 6/18/40 10/22/41 10/31/42 Noshiro Yokosuka NY 9/4/41 7/19/42 6/30/43 Yahagi Sasebo NY 11/11/41 10/25/42 12/29/43 Sakawa Sasebo NY 11/21/42 4/9/44 11/30/44 Agano class Specifications Displacement 8,534 tons full load Dimensions Lenght:572.35ft overall /beam 49.9ft /draft: 8,5 ft Speed 35 knots Range 6,000nm at 18 knots Crew 51 officers and 649 enlisted personel as designed; Sakawa had 55 officers and 750 enlisted when completed Agano and Noshiro as built: 6 × 152 mm Type 41 guns (3 × 2) 4 × 76.2 mm Type 98 DP guns (2 × 2) 6 × 25 mm AA guns (2 × 3) 4 × 13mm Type 93 AA machine guns (2 × 2) 8 × 610 mm torpedo tubes (2 × 4) 16 Type 95 or Type 2 depth charges 3 Type 88 mines Completed on 31 October 1942, Agano participated in the battles for Guadalcanal and the Solomon Islands during 1943. Agano was badly damaged in Rabaul harbor by aircraft from the aircraft carriers USS Saratoga and USS Priceton, and in a subsequent attack by aircraft from TF38 on 11 November she received a torpedo hit. Ordered to home waters for repair, she was torpedoed and sunk north of Truk by the US submarine USS Skate (SS-305), on 16 February 1944. Light cruiser Noshiro Commissioned on 30 June 1943, Noshiro participated in operations in the Solomon Islands and was damaged during the US carrier aircraft raids on Rabaul on 5 November 1943. She served in the Marianas in the summer of 1944, and was part of Admiral Kurita's force during the Battle of the Philippine Sea. At the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944. She was west of Panay while withdrawing from the Battle of Samar on the morning of 26 October when she was sunk by aircraft from USS Wasp and USS Cowpens. Light cruiser Yahagi Commissioned on 29 December 1943 Yahagi saw action in the Marianas in May/June 1944, during the Battle of the Philippine Sea, and during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. After the US invasion of Okinawa on 1 April 1945, she was ordered to accompany the battleship Yamato on its suicide mission against the American fleet at Okinawa. Yahagi was hit by some seven torpedoes as well as a dozen bombs, and sank on the afternoon of 7 April 1945. Light cruiser Sakawa Sakawa was not completed until the end of 1944, by which time there was little fuel available. She survived the war unscratched and was used as a transport to return demilitarized troops from New Guinea and other areas after the war. She was expended in the atom bomb tests at Bikini Atoll in 1946. *Data based on Imperial Japanese Navy Light Cruisers 1941–45 and Wikipedia. In conclusion, I think that it would be nice to see those magnificent looking light cruisers in game at some point. Possibly a tier V-VI ship, with many ways to make it interesting and unique. Torpedo reload booster, higher rate of fire, better aa or maybe Aiming System Modification 0? There is many options to choose from for this class.
  25. Assarakoss

    Radar mehr Radar

    Radar Wargaming wir brauchen mehr Radar im Spiel damit es noch mehr abfucked!Macht absolut null sinn DD zu Spielen ab Tier 7 weil jeder edited !Bei sovielen Radar Schiffen brauch man auch keine Erkennbarkeit mehr bei den DDs es sieht einen sowieso jeder Stricher Dieser Beitrag wurde von dem Moderatorenteam aufgrund des folgenden Verstoßes bearbeitet: Verstoß gegen Regel 1