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Found 9 results

  1. dubsy1021

    RN Battlecruiser Tree

    So I have been thinking recently about how to do a Royal Navy battlecruiser tree, and how their performance would be, and I've come to some ideas. So firstly, general performance. I think the main 'gimmick' would be basing their hull performance closer to a cruiser than a battleship. This would reflect their origin as a cruiser killer based off of an armoured cruiser type hull. So what do I mean by this? Firstly, better rudder shift. This allows them to stay closer to the battle, in tune with their speed, and dodge torpedoes, staying alive. Secondly, better concealment, again allowing a closer presence. This would allow them to become more orientated around cruiser support, as opposed to a more long range traditional BB role. The trade off is of course weakness to battleship fire and probably lower HP So how would I do the tiers? Well, start at tier 3. HMS Invincible is a fairly obvious pick. The first battlecruiser. Compared to the Bellerophon, you sacrifice armour and a turret for speed, along with the previous features I mentioned. Interestingly, despite 1 fewer turrets, the ship allows LIMITED cross deck firing, so it is possible to get an 8 gun broadside (similar to the Kaiser, if any of you are familiar with that ship). Another possibility is the Indefatigable class, which was very similar. Basically it allowed better cross deck firing angles, and had other slight improvements. HMS Inflexible, an Invincible class Tier 4 is where things get a little interesting with my choices. Some people seem to be of the opinion that there should only be 1 13.5 inch BC, with the rather weak 6 gun 15 inch Renown at T5 then a merger, or something similar. However, I suggest sticking with 13.5 inchers from 4 to 5. This follows the battleship precendant, and stays with the theme of a smaller main armament and less armour for more speed compared to the same tier British battleship. So the lower pick would be Lion. This class were the first 13.5 inch battlecruisers, with an improved speed and thicker armour. HMS Lion Then at tier 5, HMS Tiger. This ship is very comparable to the Kongos, both being improved Lions (fun fact the first Kongo was built in Britain). It has far better rear firing angles for the mid turret (on Lion there's a second superstructure obstructing firing, Tiger was refitted to have full rear firing - this presents an interesting hull upgrade option). It also had 6 inch secondaries rather than 4 inch, and is slightly faster. Basically, it is to the Lions as the Iron Dukes are to the Orions. Comparing it to the Kongo, I am aware this is a potential issue for some people. Smaller guns and slower speed. However, I disagree. Firstly, the speed is only 2kn slower. Secondly, the armour is thicker on Tiger. Finally, the 13.5 inch is very comparable to the Vickers 14 incher. The 13.5 is certainly a little worse, however not significantly, and its higher trajectory makes it more effective against deck armour, a considerable advantage at this tier when ships do not have very thick decks. Also, I think it would be reasonable to give the ship a WWII refit. This could vary in significance a lot. The minimum would be better AA, like the German BBs of this tier. It could extend further though. The Kongos were refitted with better armour and better boilers giving a higher top speed. Why not give the Tiger a speed boost? It's a reasonable upgrade. The most outlandish possibility is replacing the 13.5 inch guns with 14 inch guns as fitted to the KGVs. The 14 inch gun was actually designed to fit in the 13.5 inch mounts, interestingly, so it does have some basis in reality and could quite possibly have happened if the ship had stuck around. HMS Tiger, showing the better firing angles on the rear turret Moving on, Renown at tier 6. A faster Revenge class with 6 15 inch guns, and hideously thin armour. A 6 inch thick belt. This thing is a real glass cannon. But at 32 knots, with decent firing angles and less of a reliance on broadsiding (2/3 of main guns are forward firing), it should be OK. No trouble on AA, the Renown got right through WWII so a decent armament got on, along with some neat secondary 4.5 inchers and the octopoidal superstructure. HMS Renown in refitted condition Tier 7 is where I think the line should merge back in with the BBs. This tier would have the final battlecruiser. Hood as a premium creates an issue, but I have a solution. The original Admiral class design. This would mean a very fast ship with 32kn +. The Admiral had a much better belt than Renown, with 12 inches at 12 degrees. This is actually comparable to the Iowa at close ranges (lesser angle, but this has little effect at close range), so perfectly well protected. The deck armour is really not anything to write home about, but the ship is intended to fight at closer ranges, so this shouldn't be a giant issue. The AA could be modelled off of Hood, or given a more generous WWII refit. The ship would look very similar to Hood, though probably sitting a little higher in the water. HMS Hood. The Admiral would look very similar. The reason for a Tier 7 merge is twofold. Firstly, I cannot think of a T8. Secondly, from the KGV and beyond, the battleships get faster and make the idea of a battlecruiser a bit obsolete. However, if a candidate for T8 can be found, and is used (likely one of the worse designs from the studies that led to the G3s and N3s), the T9 would probably be a G3, with a modernised AA set up. This is a fast, well armoured and fairly well armed ship, a true fast battleship, so I personally would not really recommend it, it would not fit with the line well and be too similar to the Lion. So what are people's thoughts on my suggestions?
  2. 1MajorKoenig

    Dreadnought Era Appreciation Thread

    Fellow captains, I had the idea for this thread driving around in my A-HULL AMAGI and BAYERN - thinking how beautiful these ships are: this thread is for all of you who appreciate the Golden Age of Dreadmought battles to meet, discuss and exchange thoughts. While dreadnooughts are more of a niche product and a "filler" on the lower tiers in World of Warships it is the the true age of true Battleship vs Battleship clashes. A lillte more than 100 years ago the biggest clash of steel battleships happened during the Battle of Jutland. Huge battle lines of hundreds of shiny white-grey ships covered in black smoke with almost 100.000 sailors on board fought this climatic battle. Even if the game is slowly moving more and more away from these good old days there are some Dreadnought Era ships left in the game. This thread is to appreciate them, discuss about everything about Dreadnought era ships in this game and in reality and more. And it is for every Gentleman who is not afraid to duke it out the old way - even if it means to go with an A-Hull against WW2 Technology :-) LIST OF APPRECIATED DREADNOUGHT ERA SHIPS IN WOWS (please let me know the ones I forgot :-)): IJN / JAPAN: Chikuma Kawachi Myogi - STOCK Ishizuchi Kongo - STOCK (removed in 0.5.11) Fuso - STOCK (removed) Mutsu Ashitaka Nagato - STOCK (removed in 0.6.0) Amagi - STOCK (removed in 0.6.0) Umikaze USN / UNITED STATES: Albany Chester St.Louis South Carolina Wyoming- STOCK Arkansas Beta West Virgina Colorado STOCK (removed) Sampson HSF / IMPERIAL GERMAN HIGH SEAS FLEET: Dresden Emden Kolberg Karlsruhe / Cöln Nassau König Albert Bayern - STOCK V-25 G-101 V-170 ROYAL NAVY / GREAT BRITAIN: Weymouth Caledon Danae Bellerophon Dreadnought (announced) Orion (close at least) Iron Duke (well... still a Little dreadnought'ish...) TSARIST RUSSIA: Imperator Nikolai I. Diana Bogatyr Aurora Oleg Please sign up if you you like these old ships in reality or in World of Warships and enjoy the breath of nostalgia they bring with them :-) 1MajorKoenig 506_Mephisto _Kyoshi Admiral_Bing anve8004 aquiles7389 atomskytten Babylon_218 Battleship_Nagato BrotherSurplice Caulton Comodore_Allande Cpt_Cowper_Coles darkstar73 Fat_Maniac GeorgeT1012_gt Getzamatic GhostRider_24 Gnirf Herwarth HMS_Worcester josykay Kevbar LadyJess Leo_Apollo11 Procrastes puxflacet Robber_Baron sharpie65 Tempest_V_ theOneNL Verence196 Vizeadmiral_R_Scheer vontrox VulkanNo1 Webley_Mark
  3. Zdravím, Tahle věc mi už nějakou chvíli kvasí v hlavě. V poslední době se ve hře objevuje čím dál tím více bitevních křižníků. Popravdě, podle mě je už teď ve hře dostatek lodí s charakteristikami někde mezi křižníky a bitevními loděmi, že je na čase separovat je jako samostatnou classu + vytvořit pro ně extra vývojové větve tam kde je to možné - což minimálně v případě DKM a RN možné určitě je. Osobně bych si do třídy "bitevních křižníků" dovolil zahrnout i panzerschiffe (třída Deutchland a její plánovaný nástupce Kreuzer P) a americký "velký křižník" Alaska - prostě cokoliv co stojí někde mezi křižníky a bitevními loďmi a zároveň není tak úplně ani jedno z toho. A jelikož DKM byla ve hře dříve než RN, dovolil bych si začít návrhem větve bitevních křižníků Deutches Kriegsmarine (resp. Kaiserliche Marine v případě nižších tierů). Pusťme se tedy do toho: Tier IV: S.M.S. Blücher První loď v linii vlastně není tak úplně bitevní křižník, ale v kontextu nižších tierů tuto definici dostatečně naplňuje. Navržený jako reakce na britské bitevní křižníky třídy Invincible se jednalo o poměrně dobře pancéřovaný chráněný křižník se silnou hlavní baterií tvořenou dvanácti 210mm děly v šesti věžích (jedna na přídi, jedna na zádi, dvě po každém boku, podobně jako na S.M.S. Nassau). Pancéřový pás dosahoval maximální síly 180mm, sekundární baterie byla tvořena početnými děly ráže 150 a 88 mm. Konstrukční rychlost byla 25,4 uzlů. Obecně tedy charakteristiky pěkně uprostřed mezi bitevními loďmi a křižníky na tieru IV. Tier V: S.M.S. Von Der Tann První skutečný bitevní křižník německého námořnictva byl vyzbrojen baterií osmi 28cm děl v podobné "cikcak" konfiguraci jako věže bitevní lodi Kaiser, oproti tehdejším britským bitevním křižníkům obětujícím pancíř za účelem maximalizace palebné síly a rychlosti se jednalo o spíše slaběji vyzbrojenou ale relativně dobře pancéřovanou loď (pancéřový pás až 250mm) s nijak extrémně vynikající, ale relativně rozumnou úrovní mobility (max. rychlost cca 27,5 uzlů). Sekundární výzbroj byla stále tvořena 150mm děly v kasematách a 88mm dvouúčelovými děly na palubě. Tier VI: DKM Deutchland Starší sestra lodi Graf Spee, která je všem hráčům WoWS dobře známá už dva roky. Jednalo se o naplnění omezení daných Versailleskou dohodou, kdy byl výtlak lodí omezen na 10000 tun a ráže děl na 280mm. V kontextu herní linie jde o bod, kdy se filozofie vývojové větve přesouvá od těžce pancéřovaných lodí 1. sv. války k lehkým, vysoce mobilním bitevním křižníkům určeným k napadání nepřátelských konvojů a lehčích lodí taktikou "udeř a uteč". Po stránce pancéřování, výzbroje a mobility prakticky totožná s Graf Spee, lišila se jen jinou konstrukcí nástavby a po modernizaci tzv. "atlantickou přídí" (v kontextu hry možno jako design "B" trupu) + postupně modernizovanou lehkou protiletadlovou baterií. Tier VII: Kreuzer P Tady už začínají papírové designy. Já vím, já vím, málokdo je má rád, ale bez nich se leckterá linka prostě nedá postavit, navíc v případě DKM se jednalo o celou řadu různých designů lodí všemožných typů v rámci "plánu Z" a většina z nich byla dost detailně zpracovaná. Kreuzer P byl navržený jako třída dvanácti jednotek a jednalo se o nástupce třídy Deutchland. Hlavní baterie byla ve stejné konfiguraci 2x3 jako u Deutchlandů, ale namísto starých SK C/28 se jednalo o modernější SK C/34 známé z třídy Scharnhorst (první tři lodi měly dokonce dostat přímo zbraně z lodí Scharnhorst a Gneisenau po jejich plánovaném přezbrojení na 380mm baterii). Sekundární baterie měla být oproti Deutchlandům soustředěna do dvou věží v superpozici nad věžemi hlavní baterie a torpédomety byly redukovány na 2x3 a přesunuty doprostřed lodi. Tier VIII: Schlachtkreuzer O (1) Návrh bitevního křižníku určeného k samostatným operacím, jednalo se o poměrně velkkou loď vyzbrojenou hlavní baterií ve třech věžích. Co se výzbroje týče objevilo se postupně několik návrhů s ráží děl od 280 do 380mm a předpokládanou maximální rychlostí až 35 uzlů. Několik z těchto návrhů jsem vybral jako zástupce posledních tří tierů s postupně sílící výzbrojí. Na tieru VIII by byl adekvátní návrh lodi s lehkým pancéřováním (pás max. 190mm) a výzbrojí tří věží po třech dělech ráže 280mm doplněnou sekundární baterií ráže 150mm, dvouúčelovými děly ráže 105mm a dvěmi třírannými torpédomety Tier IX: Schlachtkreuzer O (2) Jako přirozená protiváha lodí Kronstadt a Alaska by se nabízela verze návrhu třídy O vyzbrojená hlavní baterií děl SK C/39 ráže 305mm. Jednalo se o plánovanou výzbroj budoucích bitevních křižníků, jejíž vývoj byl ukončen po tom, co bylo rozhodnuto vyzbrojit je děly ráže 38cm použitými na třídě Bismarck. V kontextu hry by asi nejlepší volbou byla volitelná konfigurace, buď 3x3 305mm děla nebo 3x2 380mm děla se stejnou penetrací, poškozením, úsťovou rychlostí a dalšími parametry vázanými na střelu samoznou jako u lodí Gneisenau a Bismarck, ale s předvídatelnějším rozptylným obrazcem za cenu kratšího dostřelu +rychlostí nabíjení optimalizovanou pro IX. tier. Tier X: Schlachtkreuzer O+ Tady se musím přiznat, úplně vymyšlený design na bázi Schlachtkreuzer O. Na druhou stranu totéž se dá říct o Grosser Kurfürst, République, Conqueror, a vůbec spousta tier X lodí s jen hrstkou čestných vyjímek, takže bych v tom pro účel hry neviděl problém. Jednalo by se o design s pancířem srovnatelným s Schlachtkreuzer O vyzbrojený baterií devíti 380mm děl ve třech věžích Herní styl: Společnou vlastností většiny německých bitevních křižníků byla poměrně silná sekundární baterie děl ráže 150mm, což mě přivedlo na myšlenku možnosti konfigurovat lodi tak, aby bylo možno tuto vlastnost s výhodou využít. Nemluvím teď o dostřelu na úrovni francouzských a německých bitevních lodí, ale o dostatečně dlouhém dostřelu tak, aby se vyplatilo investovat do jejího posílení pro boj zblízka. Zároveň pro ty, kdo preferují možnost obrany před nepřátelskými letadly by u vyšších tierů mohl být k dispozici alternativní "C" trup, který by obětoval dostřel sekundární baterie (a někdy i přímo měnil "hladinové" zbraně za dvouúčelové) pro posílení protiletadlové výzbroje. Nakonec, můj osobní návrh ikony pro označení bitevních křižníků:
  4. So, first of all: Hello and please excuse my english, as well as any inevitable typos below. It's not my 1st language, but i believe it's enough to get the message around, so let's get to the point: This topic is basically translation of my previous, similar one in czech forums. I may or may not add or change some bit here and there, but the general message is basically the same for both of those topics. This is just to spread the message a bit further. I have been thinking about this thing for some time now: In recent time there seems to be increasing number of ships in WoWs which one might call "battlecruisers". Truth be told, i believe even now there is enough ships with characteristics somewhere between cruisers and battleships to classify them under separate category and add their own tech branches where possible - which i believe might be for the DKM and RN trees. Personally i would classify as "battlecruisers" every ship, which combines characteristics from both classes, be it german "Pocket battleships" or american "Large Cruisers" of the Alaska-class. Also, ships which were technically battlecruisers but in effect were not really much different drom fast battleships (like Kongo, Eitel Friedrich, Hood or Amagi) would not be included in the battlecruiser class for ballance and tech tree continuity purposes. And since DKM tech tree is older than the Royal Navy one, i would like to present my suggestion for the battlecruiser line of the Deutches Kriegsmarine (or Kaiserliche Marine for the lower tiers), so let's get to it: Tier IV: S.M.S. Blücher First ship of the branch is not actually battlecruiser per se, but among the low tier ships it fits the definition well enough: Designed as counterpart to british Invincible-class battlecruisers, the Blücher was the last protected cruiser of german navy armed with twelve 210mm guns in six turrets (one fore, one aft, 2+2 wing turrets, much like the Nassau), secondary battery of numerous 150mm and 88mm guns and quite reasonable armor, with belt thickness up to 180mm. Its max speed was 25,4 knots. Those characteristics all fit pretty well between cruisers and battleships of tier IV. Tier V: S.M.S. Von Der Tann First proper battlecruiser of the german navy. It was armed by 8 280mm guns arranged in "zigzag" configuration, much like the german battleship Kaiser. In comparison to british idea of battlecruiser, which sacrificed armour to max out speed and firepower, german battlecruisers had a bit lighter armament, but considerable amount of armor (belt thickness up to 250mm) with not exactly stellar, but quite reasonable max speed of 27,5 knots. Secondary armament was still composed of 150mm and 88mm guns mounted in casemates and dual purpose mounts respectively. Tier VI: DKM Deutchland The older sister of Graf Spee, which is well known to WoWs community for at least two years now. It was built to fulfill the versailles treaty limits, which limited new german ships to 10000 tons of displacement and their main battery armament to 11". In WoWs, Deutchland would mark the point where the design philosophy would shift from heavily armored ships of the 1st world war to highly mobile commerce raiders and cruiser hunters of World War 2, best suited for the "hit and run" tactics. Armor and armament-wise, Deutchland was basically identical to Graf Spee and differed mostly visually by different superstructure design and later after its modernisation, bu the "atlantic bow" (in-game this might reflect on B-hull) + throughout the war steadily upgraded light AA armament. Tier VII: Kreuzer P Here we actually start with the "paper designs", althrough many of those designs were actually approved for construction and some ships even laid down as part of the "plan Z" fleet, which was supposed to challenge Royal Navy on equal terms. Some people might not like the paper ships, but sometimes you can't actually build whole tree without them and as i said some of those were in really advanced stage of development, so moving on: Kreuzer P was supposed to be twelve unit class of pocket battleships designed as successors to the Deutchlands, sharing the same main battery configuration of two 280mm triplets, but instead of the older SK C/28 guns these ships were supposed to carry the more modern SK C/34 of the Scharnhorst-class, quite literally for the first three ships planned, which were supposed to be armed by guns salvaged from the two light battleships during their scheduled refit with twin 380mm turrets. Secondary battery was to be concentrated to two turrets located in superposition to the main battery. Torpedo armament was to be reduced to two three-barreled launchers about in the middle of the hull's length. Tier VIII: Schlachtkreuzer O (1) Proposed battlecruiser designed for independent commerce-raiding operations was to be large ship with main battery composed of three gun turrets, relatively light armour and design speed of up to 35 knots. Several designs were suggested, with main armament consisting of guns ranging from 280 to 380mm. Several of those designs could fit as the last three tiers of this tech branch, with increasingly more powerful armament: For tier VIII, the most adequate would be one of the first designs armed by 9 280mm guns in three-gun turrets, 150mm secondary battery, 105mm DP guns and two three-barreled torpedo launchers. Tier IX: Schlachtkreuzer O (2) As natural counterballance to Kronstadt and Alaska, tier IX would be occupied by O-class design armed by main battery of 9 305mm SK C/39 guns. This was supposed to be the main armament of german Z-plan battlecruisers, before its development was suspended in favor of using 380mm guns already in production for the Scharnhorst-class and Bismarck-class battleships. In WoWs, best choice could be optional gun loadout of either 3x3 305mm guns or 3x2 380mm guns, which would be in shell performance to Bismarck, but with more predictable dispersion pattern, but shorter main battery range and reload speed optimized for tier IX. Tier X: Schlachtkreuzer O+ Here i must admit, this one would be fabricated design along the lines of O-class, but considering many (not just) tier X ships already in-game are complete fabrications, including Grosser Kurfürst, République or Conqueror, i don't see that big of a problem in this aspect. This would be slightly enlarged O-class design with the same almost cruiser-lever armor, armed by 9 380mm guns in three turrets. Expected play style: Společnou vlastností většiny německých bitevních křižníků byla poměrně silná sekundární baterie děl ráže 150mm, což mě přivedlo na myšlenku možnosti konfigurovat lodi tak, aby bylo možno tuto vlastnost s výhodou využít. Nemluvím teď o dostřelu na úrovni francouzských a německých bitevních lodí, ale o dostatečně dlouhém dostřelu tak, aby se vyplatilo investovat do jejího posílení pro boj zblízka. Zároveň pro ty, kdo preferují možnost obrany před nepřátelskými letadly by u vyšších tierů mohl být k dispozici alternativní "C" trup, který by obětoval dostřel sekundární baterie (a někdy i přímo měnil "hladinové" zbraně za dvouúčelové) pro posílení protiletadlové výzbroje. The common reccuring theme of most german battlecruiser designs was powerful secondary battery consisting of 150mm guns, which lead me to idea for these ships to be configured in a way where the player could build on this feature and in close-range brawls use those guns to his advantage. Now, i'm not talking about the secondary range on par with German or French battleships, but slightly greater range, which, if the player would invest the required captain skills, could enable him to effectively use those guns. At the same time, player who would chose not to emphasise on his ship's secondary surface armament and would actually prefer to have more reliable means to defend himself agains enemy carrier groups could use the optional "C Hull" available on mid-to-high tier ships, which would sacrifice the secondary gun range (and in some cases even exchange "surface" gun mounts for dual purpose or dedicated AA) to improve the performance of the AA battery. The last suggestion for now, my idea of "battlecruiser" class icon: 
  5. FrankvC_Jr

    IJN BB and BC tree

    Firstly the intro Im a spanish guy (and i already apologize for bad english) who loves the IJN BCs and 8 8 fleet plan So i wanted the Ashitaka and Kii Sadly my wallet cant take them, at least for now I have done 3 topics regarding buffs and improvements to the Eugen and the Kii plus a cry post on the Ashitaka You can check them here if you dare reading in Spanish Sadly you will probably dont catch the jokes Eugen topic Kii Ashitaka Now the problem As i said, i want to make a full tree of IJN BB and BC starting in the Kawa and then from tier 4 upwards the line will be splitted https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10SkC-pjMCGE2Xta92yDBOqQoOwkjuwr0z2puWwACDPc I hope the link works I will use Fuso preliminar for the “Fuso prot” spot Yamashiro 39 is a placeholder, same as Hiei 42 The Owari is used cause Kii is premium The Yamato prot aka Izumo could be changed thus i prefer to say that rather than the ingame one Finally i want to say than this is difficult and a bit time limited cause my real life status (university problems) I really hope you all who read this have a nice day and if some of you who have the ships i ask, i would like you to help me Again, sry for bad english
  6. Right, this topic is a copy of a post i made on the NA forums, but i thought i'd post it here aswel. Here are two plans made by the Dutch government to aquire big ships with which to defend its colonial empire. Suffice to say, two big wars spoiled those plans. I might add some other Dutch ships (cruisers etc) later. Enjoy! Battleship plan 1912 In the years before the outbreak of the first world war, the Dutch government became concerned about the naval expansion of the Japanese fleet during and following the Russo-Japanese war. As The Dutch Indies (now Indonesia) were of considerable economic importance to the Dutch economy, plans were made to enlarge the fleet protecting the colonies. In 1912, the then minister of naval affairs J. Wentholt came up with the plan "Panzerschip 1912" (roughly translated into Armoured ship 1912) which called for the construction of four armoured cruisers armed with 11" guns. However the navy was against this plan, which it deemed inadequate, and wanted bigger and stronger ships. This caused quite a stir in parliament and ultimately forced the minister to resign. The new minister (then under the new name "minister of war", now called minister of defence) wasted no time and formed a committee for the design and construction of 9 battleships, to counter the Japanese threat. They were to have a displacement of 21,000 tonnes, top speed of 21 knots, an armored belt of 250mm (where 300mm was more common) and armed with 8 13" guns. At first, only the German Krupp-Germania company (which was already constructing the German Kaiser class dreadnoughts) was contacted to make three preliminary designs for these ships: Fully oil fired, fully coal fired and mixed oil-coal firing. Oil firing was preffered, even though oil (and the infrastructure for it) was still scarce within the Dutch colonial empire. Among the designs that followed, this beauty came along. As far as i can tell, this is one of the first modern battleship designs with two quadruple turrets, just like the later French Richelieu and Dunkerque class battleships. The French Lyon class with 4 4-barreled turrets was designed in the same period, but also never built. HERE you can find a 3D redering of this vessel. (Dutch site, but the video speaks for itself!) As The Netherlands did not have experience with properly designing and building capital ships, a large number of international shipbuilding companies were contacted to assist in the design and to ultimately construct the ships. Of these, only Krupp-Germania (builders of the German Kaiser class), Blohm & Voss and Vickers came with designs which were seriously considered by the Dutch government. By 1914 the max dispacement had risen to around 28,000 tonnes and the guns enlarged to 8 14"/L45 in four twin turrets and the engines would run on mixed coal and oil firing with a top speed of 22 knots. Armor was still the weak, battlecruiser like, with a maximum thickness of 250mm. In the end... In July 1914 a bill had been passed for the funding of the ships (order was scaled down to 5 or 7) and even though there was still some discussion going about which design to choose (even though the Krupp-Germania design was apparently preffered), the first keel would been laid down in December of that year with the ships being completed in 1918. However, the War spoiled those plans and no keels were ever laid down. In 1920 and 1921 a new Royal Commission investigated the need for new ships to defend the Dutch colonial empire, but did not recommend to construct battleships. This ruling, combined with the growing pacifist movement of that time pretty much killed off the project...until the 1930 battlecruiser project came along (more on that later). In hindsight The latest designs of the Dutch dreadnoughts were relatively up to spec with dreadnoughts or battlecruisers of other nations, except in one area: armor and seconday guns. Due to the relatively small dispacement of 21,000 to 28,000 tonnes, weight was saved by using a less thick armoured belt. In that respect these ships were comparable to the Japanese Kongo class battlecruisers gun and armor wise, but much slower. To sum it up: not enough armor and guns for a battleship and too slow for a battlecruiser. But maybe the relative large amout of ships (5 to 9 planned ships) might have made up for that...we'll never know! So...How about some battlecruisers? In the 1930's the navy once again became convinced that the two light WW1 cruisers of the Java class, a fleet of submarines and a few old armored gunboats were not enough to protect the Dutch Indies agains possible Japanese aggression. It was believed that if a war with Japan broke out, it would send the bulk of its large ships to fight the Americans and the British, leaving their cruisers to fight the Dutch forces. So the Dutch navy began a project to aquire three "super cruisers" along the "stronger than faster, faster than stronger" line of thought. Dutch intelligence did not expect the Japanese cruisers to be escorted by carriers, so even the threat of these ships in port (as a fleet in being) would be enough to discourage the Japanese of invading Dutch territory. Design In 1939 the go-ahead was given to begin the planning and design of these ships. Top speed was to be 32 knots, 9 11"guns in three turrets and a considerable secondary battery of dual purpose 120mm guns and 40mm AA guns. As with the dreadnoughts, the Dutch were incapable of designing a modern capital ship so they turned to other countries. At first they turned to the French in the hope that they would release plans to their Dunkerque class battleships. But as this turned out to be a futile effort, the Dutch turned to their easterly neighbours: Nazi Germany.After a number of rounds of negotiations, the Germans agreed to release rough schematics of "a battlecruiser in line with the German school of shipbuilding" (which looked A LOT like the Scharnhorst class). At first this was even without the armor protection scheme but after later negotiations these were also released except the part below the water line. The Dutch faced two problems with the German design: They did not trust the all-diesel propulsion system and favoured a steam turbine setup. (but there wasnt enough room in the design) The design totally lacked torpedo defences as the Germans refused to release these. The first problem was to be solved by enlarging the engine room, but this ment sacrificing armour to keep within the 16,000 tonnes displacement limit. (as the Dutch were not involved with the naval treaties, they did not have to adhere to the 10,000 tonnes limit for cruisers)The second problem was solved with the help of the Italians. They gave the Dutch permission to inspect their Vittorio Veneto battleship and its protection scheme AND the Italians knew a thing or two about the German Scharnhorst. The result of this trip was a complete rework of the internal subdivision of the ship and resulted in better protection against magnetic torpedoes with the use of a reworked double bottom. The latter had to be abandoned however, as it would exceed the maximum draft specified. And in the end...part 2 Up to March 1940 Dutch delegations went to Berlin to discuss the designs with 1944 as an estimated delivery year for the first ship, but just like with the dreadnoughts, war reared its ugly head and things ground to a halt. In May of that same year, Germany invaded The Netherlands so you could say that all work was for nothing. 1047 class compared to the Scharnhorst class In contrast to the earlier dreadnought designs, the class 1047 would be one of the finest battlecruisers designed in that time. It's armor would be a bit weaker than its Scharnhorst counterpart, but in all other aspects it would have been better. More reliable engines, twin smokestacks which improved engine performance even further, better elevation for the main guns, far superior anti-air systems (the 40mm Bofors emplacements with Hazemeyer mounts were also used on Dutch destroyers, and were later copied by the British and Americans to become the Mark IV twin mount (RN) and MK 1 and 2 guns for the USN...some of the most effective AA guns of the war). Also the use of dual purpose secondary guns instead of single purpose enhanced its effectivenes even further. Concluding / TL;DR For a small navy (with a big history i might add) the Dutch had big plans for big ships, but every time they were ready to place the order war broke out. Their effectiveness in WW2 if they had been built would have been questionable though. Especially considering Japanese airpower and the use of long lance torpedoes. MAYBE that the battle of the Java sea would have turned out differently, but that's a big if. Thank you for reading, and i hope to see some more lesser known beauties on these forums! :) Sources: Wikipedia (plan 1912) Wikipedia (class 1047) Netherlandsnavy.nl (plan 1912) Netherlandsnavy.nl (class 1047)
  7. Centurion_1711

    British Battlecruisers

    Hi all, I know we haven't even got the British Battleship tree yet, but I was thinking about some of the Battlecruisers that Britain designed. I'm not sure on their tiers, so i'll just list a few that could be part of a split line. Invincible class: Lion class: Courageous class: Renown class: G3 class: Thanks for reading, I hope the post wasn't too long (definitely felt that way ) Feel free to list any other ships that I may have missed, or could work in this line.
  8. So I know this won't come for quite some time I assume, but I still just want to go over what we can expect to see later down the line. So on the top of my head I came up with this, but I need help to fill out the blanks or please tell me if you think my placements are bad. Tier 3-5: I expect to see paper ships here, but I can't find anything obvious Tier 6: I'm pretty sure Ise will fit nicely as it is basically Fuso. Tier 7: not really sure Tier 8: Tosa Tosa-class will do the trick as it has the same armament as Amagi. It's slower, but it makes up for it in slightly larger secondary battery and armor Tier 9: Kii Kii looks like an Amagi, but has better armor. So since Amagi is already pretty strong (I think at least), I think Kii could be a contender for this spot. Tier 9 contenders include the Fujimoto 30 project and Hiraga designs armed with 16 inch/406 mm main guns Tier 10: A-150 "Super Yamato" For many I guess this would sound insane as Yamato is already one of the strongest tier 10 ships, and I can understand that as the initial designs for A-150 was a displacement of 90 000+ tons and 3x3 20" or 4x2 20" guns, but let's not forget the design was reworked to be much lighter and only armed with 3x2 20" guns. With some balancing I think the A-150 could be balanced in game. Tier 10 contenders include the Hiraga design armed with 18" and Number 13 class. I'll write some specs later and do some polishing later, attach some photos maybe?
  9. 1MajorKoenig

    SMS Lützow - a good Premium Ship :-)

    Historical Background: SMS Lützow was the second Derfflinger class and while she was commissioned into the High Seas Fleet in August 1915 it was not until end of February 1916 that she became operational due to damages during her trials. SMS Lützow took part took part in the bombardment of Yarmouth and Lowestoft but her tragic moment of glory came as the flagship of the victorious Scouting Forces at the battle of Jutland on 31-May-1916. Her unit successfully spotted and engaged the numerical superior British Battlecruiser forces first despite a range disadvantage and blew up two of the British Capital ships in quick succession, “HMS Indefatigable” and “HMS Queen Mary”. A third British battlecruiser “HMS Invincible” exploded about 2h later under the fire of the German battlecruisers which in return received substantial punishment from the entire British battlefleet. Lützow suffered multiple underwater hits including hits to the forward torpedo room and attempted to withdraw home. Heroic efforts to save the ships during the night were ultimately unsuccessful and the ships had to be scuttled before the break of dawn. The DERFFLINGER-Class: Derfflinger marks a new generation of German battlecruisers after the first generation ships represented by Blücher to Seydlitz. The Derfflingers featured bigger guns (8 of the well-known high speed 30.5cm SK L/50) arranged in an all-centerline super firing A-B-X-Y-configuration. As typical for ships of that period the Derfflingers featured a casemated secondary battery and underwater torpedo tubes (which ultimately doomed SMS Lützow). The ships featured a heavy 300mm belt which is comparable to contemporary British Dreadnoughts and high speed around 28kn. Trials were a bit lower around 26kn but were conducted in shallow water under war-time conditions which translates roughly into a 2kn higher top speed under normal conditions. All in all the Derfflingers were an exceptionally successful design that distinguished itself in battle and formed the basis for most following battlecruiser designs, such as the Mackensens. Given Germany’s difficult situation of operating a defense-oriented battlefleet against a passive enemy who was head and shoulders over the HSF numerically, the high speed of the Derfflingers was a huge Advantage over the battleships, a fact that shows in the unusual active service records for capital ships of that time or even capital ships in general. Proposed implementation into World of Warships: HP: 42,000 Armor: 300mm max (belt) + Turtleback Speed: 28kn Armament: 4x2 30.5cm SK L/50 (reload 26s / range 12km / max dispersion 164m / sigma 1.9 – about half way between König and König Albert) plus 12 x 15cm SK L/45 (4km base range) With about 31.000t deep load her health pool could be around a healthy 42k HP. Her 300mm belt armor and turtleback armor will make her almost invulnerable to critical citadel hits at T4. Torpedo protection was good by the standards of 1914 but would most likely translate into some 25% like the other German Capital ships. Her primary artillery would be fast firing – assumption would be the “reduced” reload time of 26s as on Kaiser and König would be applied and could behave similar to König Alberts shells (AP alpha of 8300). Her turrets – in line with the other German Battleships would turn rather slow (eg. 60sec for a 180° turn). The penetration of the 30.5cm won’t be an issue as she would face T3-5 only in her tier. Peculiar about the ship would be a T3 like short firing range of about 12km. This would be due to the fact that Lützow didn’t receive a high up artillery director on a tripod mast like her sisters after Jutland. In consequence her range finders are comparable in height to König Albert which translates into the short gun range. However she would be far better able to compensate for that with high speed to get in quickly or retreat if needed. Her secondary battery would consist of the usual 15cm SK L/45 with a abase range of 4km that can be pushed to 5km by flags and captain skills. Being a 1916 battlecruiser she would have almost no AA to speak of. Handling-wise SMS Lützow would be very fast driving straight (28kn) but relatively sluggish while turning. Historically the ship turned well but was slow to answer the helm as the tandem rudders were not in direct prop wash. This drawback should be modelled in WOWS as well and would translate into a bad rudder shift time. As a special “gimmick” the ship would have access to the “Speed Boost” consumable. Summary: Lützow would be the perfect candidate for a Tier 4 premium ship and an intriguing vessel. She’d have some pronounced strength and weaknesses and would offer a unique playstyle. She would be a fast but slow turning ship. She would mount fast firing and relatively accurate 30.5cm rifles but suffering from a very short firing range which she would need to compensate by high speed. Her unique speed boost consumable would help her to charge in and out quickly into fights. Thanks for reading and looking forward to your thoughts on this :-)
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