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Allorhos

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Posts posted by Allorhos

  2. Posted

    4 horas antes, Cammo1962 dijo:

    Some DDs have a long reload lets take the Shima it have a 117 second loading time before it can shoot them agai and these torps can be seen from the moon and back again with a 12 km range and lest take the French DDs like the Kleber it has a 7,8 km concealment and it torps have a range of 8 km with a loading time of 69,3 sec. The Harugumo has only one set of torps and it takes them and it takes 130.8 sec to load and them it can reload and send another set of torps but it then has a cooldown of 160 sec before it can use torps again and most of the time you need to go in under 12 km when shooting torps in them while in a sub you can sit up to 14 km and just ping away and send torps you can go closer in them true but if you get discovered you just dive while in a DD if you are discovered by radar you are caught and a good portion of your health are gone. But as someone said try and play other classes of ships espeacially some BBs and before you say to me that I should try and play subs I can say I have done that and I still dont like them.

     

    What you're saying doesn't address the point we were discussing, which is how easy it is to hit someone with a homing torpedo without pinging.

    Anyway, if you "ping away" you're telling your target that torpedoes are coming, and as far as my sub experience goes and as I said before multiple times, if a target knows torpedoes are coming, they will dodge them as long as they're not distracted with something else and don't know how to dodge them (and they don't have a REALLY slow BB, maybe).

     

    4 horas antes, Cammo1962 dijo:

    No you dont need a bigger crystal ball than others you just have to predict like anyome else where the enemy will go or react.

     

    If you really are saying that predicting 15 seconds in advance is just as hard as 40 seconds, I think that I'll stop this debate with you, since you're either fooling yourself for the sake of being right, or you're taking me for a fool.

     

    4 horas antes, Cammo1962 dijo:

    Well we can say the same regarding you playing other classes so whats your point ??

     

    The difference is that I'm always talking about submarines and how I see things from their point of view over a bunch of games I've played with them. If I play other classes I might see how hard it is FOR ME to dodge sub topedoes. But when I'm playing subs it's not me who's dodging those torpedoes. So, from a sub, if I see that almost everybody seems to be able to dodge homing torpedoes just by steering, I think that it's logical for me to arrive to the conclusion that they're quite easy to dodge if you know how.

    Also, I think that playing cruisers (for example) won't improve my insight on submarine non homed torpedoes.

     

    4 horas antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    And some of us 100's at a higher skill level. So. If I say that sub torps both homing and none homing are more than fine. Why am I wrong and you right? What's you actual statistical yard stick so to speak. 

    If you say that sub torpedoes are fine that's your opinion, I have mine. You were the one saying that all my points were invalid because I haven't played other ship classes in the first place, I haven't said such a thing about others nor to you.

    If you say that my opinion on submarines is not valid because I haven't played other classes, then yours isn't valid either because you've only played 10 sub games.

     

    However, I'm not saying that your opinion is invalid; I'm only saying that, since I played submarines a little bit, I may have more insight on them than people who tells me to play more in order to have an opinion on them, and then proceed to give their opinion on subs without having played a single game as one.

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  3. Posted

    17 minutos antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    You fired a Vermont salvo?

    How much travel time does a Vermont salvo have at max range?

     

    EDIT:

    I've just checked it in a replay. 15 seconds for a 23km range shot, a little bit faster than a german sonar ping. Obviously you'll need to make some guess about what your target is going to do in the next seconds. But please, I hope you'll agree with me when I say that a torpedo needs a much bigger crystal ball when trying to hit someone at ~9km with a travel time of 40 seconds. I don't need to "come back after several 1000 games across all classes and tiers" to claim that.


    I know that I'm a big newbie around here and that my opinion most probably has zero to no value. I've stated that many times in this thread already. By no means I'm pretending to be the almighty and allknowing one that's wiser than everyone else just by playing a handful of DD and sub battles. But there are things that are just common sense (like the Vermont salvo thing, for example), and other things are concepts that don't need much context or experience to grasp (homing torpedoes are not as powerful as many submarine haters claim, for example).

     

    And hell, seeing many people around this thread I may have more insight on submarines than them, as they have almost 0 games played with submarines!

     

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  4. Posted

    20 minutos antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    The same speeds as most DD launched torps. Boom. Point gone.

     

    In fact, no. DD torps are slower than accoustic homing torpedoes. Torpedo boats, however, can shoot more torpedoes than a sub and, thus, covering a much wider area than a sub and even then they get only ~5% accuracy. Whoosh, point not gone.

     

    21 minutos antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    Errrrrr.... Do you even play the same game as us??

     

    Are you impliying that a battery salvo takes 35-40 seconds to get to the target?

     

    21 minutos antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    Come back to this discussion when you are at least semi proficient in all the other classes you claim have superior advantages. 

    Please tell me where have I claimed such a thing.

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  5. Posted

    2 horas antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    No. Pros and cons? Pro. Torps deal huge damage as a single item. And as a salvo group have the highest hitting alpha in the game. Cons. The harder hitting the torp the longer the reload and or detection and dispersion. They also stay on a fixed course when fired.

     

    Guns. Pro. They land generally as a salvo in weight and can hit at range and or have different shell types for different situations. Cons. They have rng. Range factors. Limitation in use. And hot less individually. Because a single shell doesn't even come close to the damage of a single torp.

     

    Every other class has RNG on multiple factors. The sheer audacity to demand sub have less because???.... Wow. 

    It's funny you seem to forget the biggest and most defining con of all for torpedoes: their speed. With guns you don't need to pull your crystal ball out to predict your target's next moves over the next 35-40+ seconds and pray that they don't change speed/course even a 5% of your prediction, with torpedoes you do. If on top of that you add a huge dispersion, you're making it almost impossible to use torpedoes without homing at mid-long ranges.

     

    EVEN THEN however, regarding that "sheer audacity" you speak of, please read carefully my previous posts. I've never said that subs should have less dispersion. What I said is that guns having dispersion shouldn't imply that torpedoes should have it too, and that I was surprised about the huge difference on dispersion between U-190 and U-2501.

     

    2 horas antes, Smegger213 dijo:

    Wrong again.

    I challenge you to try playing a mid tier slow American Battleship.

    Then see how you get on trying to dodge torpedoes.

    Time and time again you say that BB's easily dodge torpedoes.

    But you admit that these days you ONLY play Submarines.

    So, how can you know what it is like to try to dodge homing torpedoes in a slow battleship if you don't see what its like yourself?

    He was speaking of BBs in general I think. Are there some specific BBs that have a hard time dodging homing torps? Maybe. Since you always mention US BBs I talked to a friend who has US BBs up to T7 and we'll give it some testing, so that he gives me his impressions about dodging them.

     

    You challenged him to play BBs, I challenge you to play submarines, and you'll see how frustrating it is to see how your double pinged homing torpedoes keep steering right while your BB target is steering left, over and over again.

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  6. Posted

    12 minutos antes, Cammo1962 dijo:

    Why should a sub not have despersion on there torps its their main guns and all ships have a despersion on their guns why should they be excused for it ??

    If you want to give torpedoes the same dispersion as gun shots, give guns the same travel times as torpedoes aswell. Justifying torpedo dispersion "because main batteries also have it" isn't, in my opinion, a valid argument. They are different types of weapon and they should have different pros and cons.

     

    Having said that, however, I've never said a sub shouldn't have dispersion. The only thing I did is showing surprise about U-190 and U-2501 huge dispersion difference.

  7. Posted

    En 1/7/2023 en 20:54, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    I think they should get rid of shotgunning also. Extending the range the torps arm out to 2km, rendering subs harmless at close range and making charging them a viable and useful tactic would improve the game. But the homing aspect should be improved to compensate. At the moment it is absurdly easily to dodge, whilst ASW is borderline impossible given the damage radius.

     

    The dispersion has a bigger impact the further your target, for obvious reasons. Trying to attack a target from about 9km without homing is a waste of torpedoes at the moment. It can take a long time indeed for your torps to intersect the target, and any slight course adjustment by them can mean you're out by a few hundred meters. Add to that the wild dispersion and it is literally impossible to attack at range without pinging the target.

    Now I see why you talked about dispersion... I've just got U-2501 and played 4 games (lost all 4 and did almost nothing in any of them by the way, in one of those games I got paired Vs. @COPlUM, obviously he dodged my torpedoes with no effort :D)

     

    The dispersion difference between U-190 and U-2501 is HUGE, didn't know it was that big. It may play a role even when shotgunning, at least when targeting smaller targets.

     

    Oh, and I'm gonna miss those stern torpedoes...

  8. Posted

    23 minutos antes, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    I think they should get rid of shotgunning also. Extending the range the torps arm out to 2km, rendering subs harmless at close range and making charging them a viable and useful tactic would improve the game. But the homing aspect should be improved to compensate. At the moment it is absurdly easily to dodge, whilst ASW is borderline impossible given the damage radius.

     

    The dispersion has a bigger impact the further your target, for obvious reasons. Trying to attack a target from about 9km without homing is a waste of torpedoes at the moment. It can take a long time indeed for your torps to intersect the target, and any slight course adjustment by them can mean you're out by a few hundred meters. Add to that the wild dispersion and it is literally impossible to attack at range without pinging the target.

    Oh, that's why I didn't notice dispersion... I never use homing torps without pinging at that distance. It's a waste, but in my opinion dispersion doens't play a big role here. The problem is that we only have 4 or 6 torpedoes to create a "torpedo wall". Torpedo boats have ~5% accuracy, and they are able to shoot... how many torpedoes? 12? even more? With those torpedoes at their disposal they can cover a much wider area than submarines, and each torpedo from a DD deals much more damage than a homing torpedo. A submarine can only cover a really narrow area and each torpedo deals much less damage, because they're intended to be used as homing torpedoes.

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  9. Posted

    3 minutos antes, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    In my opinion this is a poorly designed mechanic.

     

    They'd be better off ditching the unguided high-power torpedoes, and replace that function with a simple unguided mode without altering the torpedoes in any way other than doing away with the dispersion entirely.

    Shotgunning with alternate torpedoes, in my experience, is one of the things (if not the only) that make subs dangerous and hated. However, ditching them may not be a bad idea for balance purposes, but only if they improve the homing aspect of accousting torpedoes. I'm not sure if eliminating that dispersion would be enough (I haven't noticed it in fact).

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  10. Posted

    24 minutos antes, Molly_Delaney dijo:

    I'd like an option to allow me to use unguided torps; sometimes they're more accurate than guided.....

    Also it would allow me to 'ping' ships which I'm not targeting...:Smile_trollface:

    (Basically before launch choose whether guided or unguided)

     

    :Smile_popcorn:

    You can do that by pressing G after pinging. If you ping again after launching torpedoes they will home to that target even if you pressed G though.

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  11. Posted

    16 minutos antes, darkt1981 dijo:

    Subs are a joke,

    Homing torpedo? you mean Aimbot for subs ... i thought you guys went for realism what a joke..
    There speed is unrealistic. (anybody wanna a speed boat sub)

    https://www.thegamer.com/eu-loot-boxes-gaming-addiction-report/

    Okay, let's go to realism. Subs should be able to stay submerged for hours.

    Still, that "aimbot" is extremely bad. Even with when double pinged cruisers can dodge them just by steering. DDs aswell.

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  13. Posted

    2 horas antes, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    I want to ask, specifically those that are using subs, has anyone found any success in using the alternative torpedoes? I've found them fairly useless;

     

    1. They're slow, so useless against fast opponents and even slower opponents manage to dodge them unless they're moving *very* predictably.

     

    2. They are useless at ranges where you're not right in among your opponents, in which case you can't get to periscope depth without having your time piece thoroughly cleansed.

     

    3. They have too much dispersion for an unguided, slowly reloading weapon, further forcing a closer range attack which subs are intrinsically unsuitable for.

     

    I kind of feel they're a weapon without a purpose. Am I missing something?

    When I use them I approach to a 3km distance of BBs I deem exposed in periscope depth, shoot them a little behind of the torpedo guide (assuming they will steer) and dive.

    It's a risky move since by doing that you're most likely in an extremely vulnerable position, and even then I sometimes miss, so I don't use them in most of my games.

  14. Posted

    8 minutos antes, Cammo1962 dijo:

    There is always someone that can reach you unless you all the way back at your own backside of the map.

     

    14 horas antes, Yosha_AtaIante dijo:

    Bro cope harder. The Salmon does not have the speed or capability weapon wise to shotgun any of these ships if they just pressed W.

     

     

    Guy in the following clip is a clanmember talking.

     

     

    If Copium says that the sub is completely isolated, it's because there's nobody around to shoot him. At least that's what I understand from the expression "completely isolated". If there's anybody around then it isn't isolated.

  16. Posted

    En 26/6/2023 en 3:24, COPlUM dijo:

    Submarine, completely isolated, under my lightning in hydro, it is eating depth charges, as perfect as it gets for dealing with a submarine, the ideal scenario.
    It clicks the "surface" button and right before it dies it clicks the "left mouse" button so it still trades me anyway by shotgunning me.
    Are they just designed like this? Like they 100% guarantee always trade, even if they misplay 100% and find themselves isolated under a destroyer with hydro, they still trade.
    How? Why? Why don't other ships get this feature where even if you misplay horrendously, you have a panic button for disappearing and a panic button for trading the kill.

     

    Now I won't even engage them anymore when they are isolated and I'm in a destroyer with hydro, the only ships I was still engaging submarines with, not doing it anymore. If trading me is simply a choice they get to make, I'm not fighting them ever again in any ship.

    No, it's not a 100% guaranteed trade. Torpedoes have minimum range and a DD is MUCH more manoeuvrable than a sub. If you stick just by its side he won't be able to shotgun you.

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  17. Posted

    5 minutos antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    And? The DD dodged them. DD's ARE allowed to do that you know. Just remember that a lot of the time the the DD gets wiped out in other multiple 1000's of random encounters similar. 

     

    One anecdotal time you got outplayed does not mean homing torps are crap at all. 

    I mentioned that case as an example because that was one that just happened to me when I wrote that post. Obviously there were other times in which with one just ping on a DD I got 2 impacts I didn't expect and sunk it. But for now (once again, according to my really short experience) I'd say that DDs will dodge homing torps more likely than not, even when launched in optimal (even if it means from risky positions) conditions.

  18. Posted

    1 minuto antes, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    Launch from a bigger distance if possible.

     

    Shotgunning a DD is a tactic you should only use in desperation. Remember - sub torpedo dispersion now is pretty extreme and you're relying on good fortune that they're going to be leaving at the angle you want them to. It's pretty easy for a competent DD pilot to dodge them at this point.

     

    If you shotgun a charging DD and it goes wrong then you've had it. They can depth charge you do your doom with little effort once they're on top of you.

    I wasn't shotgunning a charging DD, I only do that with stern torpedoes when the DD has already spotted me and I'm trying to escape, and I don't use pings as the distance is usually around 2km in those cases. He was moving away from me so it's possible that the distance was 4km-ish instead of 3km at the time I launched torps (and, since the DD was moving away from the torps, the homing cutoff point was most likely in front of him, not behind). If I he'd been moving towards me I would've known that there's not enough space for torps to maneuver properly so I'd just stay submerged until out of danger.

  19. Posted

    6 horas antes, Bear__Necessities dijo:

    I don't mean to sound like a [edited] when I say this. But this is just an example of being outplayed. It happens to us all. 

    Dude, I double pinged a DD within 3 km and launched 4 HOMING torpedoes from close range. There was nothing more a sub can do there to increase the chance of their torpedoes hitting the target. All I can do is get that double ping and launch torpedoes in an angle "as nice as possible". If a DD can dodge those torpedoes (yes, outplaying me) under those circumstances I would say that it's proof enough to say that homing torpedoes are s@#!.

     

    I know that I'm a noob, and people outplays me over and over again, that's fine and I don't get mad at it. It would be childish.

     

    The point is that homing torpedoes have a much lower skill ceiling than normal torpedoes, all you can do is double ping and try to get a tricky angle. If I miss with normal torpedoes it means that my aiming/predicting skills are s@#!; if double pinged homing torpedoes from 3km with a nice angle miss I'd say that it's not my skill that's crap, but the torpedoes themselves since they are the ones doing their job.

  20. Posted

    6 horas antes, Dutchy_2019 dijo:

     

    For one: T5 ships also face T6 submarines; Also, Ohio (T10), Jean Bart (T9) and Massachussets (T8) wish they have a 10km ASW range.

     

    There is a VERY good chance a BB will be on his own when throwing ASW, since all is dependent on MatchMaking, Spawns, what every BB is doing, AND what players are doing. 

     

    Also, you getting detected and blapped is mostly you messing up and for once getting punished as a result. And yeah, considering the risks a DD has to take taking on a sub, it is a good thing was actually rewarded.

     

    Subs are not necessarily OP, their implementation in the game is completely broken; 

    I know that T5 BBs can me matched VS T6 subs, but comparing T5 and T6 ships is unfair. It's logical to assume that a T6 ship will have an advantage VS a T5.

     

    Regarding my incident with the DD, of course I messed up. I went into an unsafe position and there was an undetected cruiser nearby of which I wasn't aware. I'm not complaining about getting depth charged and sunk there, but it shows that if a sub gets caught in a bad position it will be punished and, most likely, sunk without any chance of survival for the sub there. And trying to get advantageous positions avoiding unsafe ones is not easy.

     

    What I may complain about is that even at that short range and double ping homing torpedoes can be dodged by a DD, when they are supposed to be "effective against nimble targets". I took a massive risk and launched my torpedos in the best conditions possible and, even then, the DD came unscratched and I got sunk.

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  21. Posted

    8 horas antes, Smegger213 dijo:

    Wrong yet again.

     

    Try turning to avoid any torps in something like a New Mexico. A BB that does less than 20 knots and turns like a brick.

    Oh and 30 seconds cool down on ASW is still a long time. It does not result in ASW SPAM.

     

    Oh and lots of Cruisers and Battleships only get 1 plane and 1 bomb on their Depth Charge Air Strikes.

    Plus its 1 bomb with 3400 damage on a lot of BB's. That is if you even hit the thing.

    Plus you are forgetting about the limited range of ASW. As low as 5km on some ships. 4km on one BB. Now why do Wargaming penalise those BB's?

    https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines_in_2022#Ships_with_anti-submarine_weapons

    I don't know man, I've seen BBs of all types dodging my torpedoes just by steering 30º. Homing torpedos are not like normal torpedos which can cover a large area and are indeed harder to dodge for a BB. Homing ones all go to the same point and stop homing you at 1.5km (or even more with a tier X submarine). If you avoid going to that point you dodge all torpedoes. You may get hit by one or two if they had a tricky trajectory, but that damage is not a big deal for a BB. Maybe a New Mexico can't, I don't know, but in my experience that would be an exception.

     

    On the other hand, I've just double pinged a DD that was 3km from me and, even then, he was able to dodge them. Then someone detected me, DD turned back and blew the s%!@ out of me from 100% to 0% with a depth charge run.

     

    Regarding BBs ASW, lowest tier sub is VI. Lowest ASW range for a tier VI BB is 8km, not 4 or 5. Next sub tier is VIII, from there BBs have 10km range and 2 flights with 2 4.2k damage bombs each. Plus, if a BB is throwing ASW at a sub, chances are that he will not be alone, so for a couple of BBs the "effective cooldown" would be 15s.

     

    The more I play subs, the more I'm convinced that they are not OP. I won't say that they're underpowered but I definitely don't see them as OP.

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  22. Posted

    En 20/6/2023 en 22:09, Cuddly_Spider dijo:

    I'd like to ask a question - ping disabling aside do you find DDs, CVs, or BBs the more challenging targets to hit? I mean purely in terms of what class your torpedoes are most likely to make contact with assuming the enemy uses evasion.

    I'm starting to change my mind on this topic... I said that I found BB's easier to hit than cruisers but now I'm not so sure anymore. Lately I've many games with BB's dodging torpedos with a LARGE margin, pursued some for quite some time and accomplished nothing but waste time.

     

    I suppose that it's because I'm still a friggin' noob and I don't know how to play subs properly, but I'm starting to find it quite frustrating.

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  23. Posted

    Justo ahora, Smegger213 dijo:

    Most BB players will try to avoid using DCP against homing torperdoes, because they prefer to save it to combat fires and flooding.

    That is the mistake that Wargaming made, by making DCP a counter to sonar ping locks and homing torpedoes.

    You need DCP to stop fires and flooding. Wargaming should have given us a separate mechanic to counter sonar pings and homing torps. Not force us to use DCP.

    WG doesn't force you to use DCP to avoid torpedoes, you don't need it. Their homing capabilities end when they are around 1km and a half away for a double ping on BBs which is enough to "bullfight" them.

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  24. Posted

    36 minutos antes, Smegger213 dijo:

    Appologies. I did not know that DCP had been made unlimited (apart from the Soviets). Pretty sure that is a recent change.

     

    But having unlimited charges on a DCP is pretty irrelevant really.

    What matters is the cool down on DCP.

    EG  on most battleships the cool down of DCP is 80 seconds.

    But  a submarine such as the U-69 can reload its torpedoes in 58 seconds.

    So the submarine can be sending more torps your way before you have DCP again. Then all you can do is dodge.

    80 seconds + 10 to 20 more seconds from usage time, since cooldown doesn't start to run until the activation time of DCP ends. During that activation time torpedo's cooldown time is already running so effective cooldown difference is even bigger.

     

    But the thing is that, as I said, I noticed that battleships are able to dodge homing torpedoes pretty consistently just by "hiding" their broadside once they detect them. So they don't really need (once again, according to my limited experience) to use DCP to avoid torpedoes. Homing cut-off range for battleships is really big and makes things easier for them.

    • Cool 2

  25. Posted

    1 hora antes, Smegger213 dijo:

    Hi bud. I see you are new to the game, and only have 300 plus battles in randoms.

    Here you say you don't get why homing torps get all the hate.

    What I would say to you is to go play some of the mid to high tier US Battleships.

    Most of the US Battleships are slow as hell, and turn lick a brick.

    If you go play the tier 5, 6 & 7 US BB's, then you will understand how hard it can be to avoid homing torps.

    You will also find out, how hard it can be to hit a Sub with your air strike depth charges.

    You have only played up to the tier 4 US BB in random battles mate.

     

    Also like others have said. DCP is not infinite.

    You will only have a small number of DCP available to you.

    When playing a BB, you have to decide whether you want to use that DCP to get rid of a sonar ping lock.

    Or, do you save your DCP for when you get set on fire or get flooding.

    Half the time, its a waste of time to use DCP to stop homing torps, because the sub can just re-ping and torp you again before your cool down on DCP has finished.

    A Subs torp and sonar ping cool down is a lot shorter than the DCP cool down on a Battleship.

     

    The DCP mechanic has been made as totally overloaded by Wargaming's incompetence.

    Using DCP to stop a sonar ping lock and homing torpedoes are the dumbest heap of crap that Wargaming has put into this game.

    Hello.

    Yes, I'm new as I already said and no, I haven't played a lot of BB. My experience is based on sub gameplay.

    Obviously if I start playing BB now I won't be able to dodge homing torps because I'm not used to it, and by no means I'm saying that dodging torps doesn't require skill. I say what I say because I see lots of BBs dodging my torps without using DCP (which, as other people told me, is unlimited except for Soviet BBs) or compromising the safety of their position. And AFAIK, homing torps skill ceiling is not much higher than being able to land double ping consistently, so I'm not sure how much can I improve on that to make them harder to dodge.

     

    And, by the way, I want to make clear that I'm aware that my experience is really limited and my no means I think that my opinion is a valuable one :Smile_teethhappy:

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