Allorhos

No, I never bet.

What you're saying doesn't address the point we were discussing, which is how easy it is to hit someone with a homing torpedo without pinging. Anyway, if you "ping away" you're telling your target that torpedoes are coming, and as far as my sub experience goes and as I said before multiple times, if a target knows torpedoes are coming, they will dodge them as long as they're not distracted with something else and don't know how to dodge them (and they don't have a REALLY slow BB, maybe). If you really are saying that predicting 15 seconds in advance is just as hard as 40 seconds, I think that I'll stop this debate with you, since you're either fooling yourself for the sake of being right, or you're taking me for a fool. The difference is that I'm always talking about submarines and how I see things from their point of view over a bunch of games I've played with them. If I play other classes I might see how hard it is FOR ME to dodge sub topedoes. But when I'm playing subs it's not me who's dodging those torpedoes. So, from a sub, if I see that almost everybody seems to be able to dodge homing torpedoes just by steering, I think that it's logical for me to arrive to the conclusion that they're quite easy to dodge if you know how. Also, I think that playing cruisers (for example) won't improve my insight on submarine non homed torpedoes. If you say that sub torpedoes are fine that's your opinion, I have mine. You were the one saying that all my points were invalid because I haven't played other ship classes in the first place, I haven't said such a thing about others nor to you. If you say that my opinion on submarines is not valid because I haven't played other classes, then yours isn't valid either because you've only played 10 sub games. However, I'm not saying that your opinion is invalid; I'm only saying that, since I played submarines a little bit, I may have more insight on them than people who tells me to play more in order to have an opinion on them, and then proceed to give their opinion on subs without having played a single game as one.

How much travel time does a Vermont salvo have at max range? EDIT: I've just checked it in a replay. 15 seconds for a 23km range shot, a little bit faster than a german sonar ping. Obviously you'll need to make some guess about what your target is going to do in the next seconds. But please, I hope you'll agree with me when I say that a torpedo needs a much bigger crystal ball when trying to hit someone at ~9km with a travel time of 40 seconds. I don't need to "come back after several 1000 games across all classes and tiers" to claim that. I know that I'm a big newbie around here and that my opinion most probably has zero to no value. I've stated that many times in this thread already. By no means I'm pretending to be the almighty and allknowing one that's wiser than everyone else just by playing a handful of DD and sub battles. But there are things that are just common sense (like the Vermont salvo thing, for example), and other things are concepts that don't need much context or experience to grasp (homing torpedoes are not as powerful as many submarine haters claim, for example). And hell, seeing many people around this thread I may have more insight on submarines than them, as they have almost 0 games played with submarines!

In fact, no. DD torps are slower than accoustic homing torpedoes. Torpedo boats, however, can shoot more torpedoes than a sub and, thus, covering a much wider area than a sub and even then they get only ~5% accuracy. Whoosh, point not gone. Are you impliying that a battery salvo takes 35-40 seconds to get to the target? Please tell me where have I claimed such a thing.

It's funny you seem to forget the biggest and most defining con of all for torpedoes: their speed. With guns you don't need to pull your crystal ball out to predict your target's next moves over the next 35-40+ seconds and pray that they don't change speed/course even a 5% of your prediction, with torpedoes you do. If on top of that you add a huge dispersion, you're making it almost impossible to use torpedoes without homing at mid-long ranges. EVEN THEN however, regarding that "sheer audacity" you speak of, please read carefully my previous posts. I've never said that subs should have less dispersion. What I said is that guns having dispersion shouldn't imply that torpedoes should have it too, and that I was surprised about the huge difference on dispersion between U-190 and U-2501. He was speaking of BBs in general I think. Are there some specific BBs that have a hard time dodging homing torps? Maybe. Since you always mention US BBs I talked to a friend who has US BBs up to T7 and we'll give it some testing, so that he gives me his impressions about dodging them. You challenged him to play BBs, I challenge you to play submarines, and you'll see how frustrating it is to see how your double pinged homing torpedoes keep steering right while your BB target is steering left, over and over again.

If you want to give torpedoes the same dispersion as gun shots, give guns the same travel times as torpedoes aswell. Justifying torpedo dispersion "because main batteries also have it" isn't, in my opinion, a valid argument. They are different types of weapon and they should have different pros and cons. Having said that, however, I've never said a sub shouldn't have dispersion. The only thing I did is showing surprise about U-190 and U-2501 huge dispersion difference.

Now I see why you talked about dispersion... I've just got U-2501 and played 4 games (lost all 4 and did almost nothing in any of them by the way, in one of those games I got paired Vs. @COPlUM, obviously he dodged my torpedoes with no effort :D) The dispersion difference between U-190 and U-2501 is HUGE, didn't know it was that big. It may play a role even when shotgunning, at least when targeting smaller targets. Oh, and I'm gonna miss those stern torpedoes...

Oh, that's why I didn't notice dispersion... I never use homing torps without pinging at that distance. It's a waste, but in my opinion dispersion doens't play a big role here. The problem is that we only have 4 or 6 torpedoes to create a "torpedo wall". Torpedo boats have ~5% accuracy, and they are able to shoot... how many torpedoes? 12? even more? With those torpedoes at their disposal they can cover a much wider area than submarines, and each torpedo from a DD deals much more damage than a homing torpedo. A submarine can only cover a really narrow area and each torpedo deals much less damage, because they're intended to be used as homing torpedoes.

Shotgunning with alternate torpedoes, in my experience, is one of the things (if not the only) that make subs dangerous and hated. However, ditching them may not be a bad idea for balance purposes, but only if they improve the homing aspect of accousting torpedoes. I'm not sure if eliminating that dispersion would be enough (I haven't noticed it in fact).

You can do that by pressing G after pinging. If you ping again after launching torpedoes they will home to that target even if you pressed G though.

Okay, let's go to realism. Subs should be able to stay submerged for hours. Still, that "aimbot" is extremely bad. Even with when double pinged cruisers can dodge them just by steering. DDs aswell.

Homing torps generally suck. If you know how to dodge them they pose no threat. They can be an annoyance, but nothing more.

When I use them I approach to a 3km distance of BBs I deem exposed in periscope depth, shoot them a little behind of the torpedo guide (assuming they will steer) and dive. It's a risky move since by doing that you're most likely in an extremely vulnerable position, and even then I sometimes miss, so I don't use them in most of my games.

If Copium says that the sub is completely isolated, it's because there's nobody around to shoot him. At least that's what I understand from the expression "completely isolated". If there's anybody around then it isn't isolated.

He was talking about a completely isolated sub.

No, it's not a 100% guaranteed trade. Torpedoes have minimum range and a DD is MUCH more manoeuvrable than a sub. If you stick just by its side he won't be able to shotgun you.

I mentioned that case as an example because that was one that just happened to me when I wrote that post. Obviously there were other times in which with one just ping on a DD I got 2 impacts I didn't expect and sunk it. But for now (once again, according to my really short experience) I'd say that DDs will dodge homing torps more likely than not, even when launched in optimal (even if it means from risky positions) conditions.

I wasn't shotgunning a charging DD, I only do that with stern torpedoes when the DD has already spotted me and I'm trying to escape, and I don't use pings as the distance is usually around 2km in those cases. He was moving away from me so it's possible that the distance was 4km-ish instead of 3km at the time I launched torps (and, since the DD was moving away from the torps, the homing cutoff point was most likely in front of him, not behind). If I he'd been moving towards me I would've known that there's not enough space for torps to maneuver properly so I'd just stay submerged until out of danger.

Dude, I double pinged a DD within 3 km and launched 4 HOMING torpedoes from close range. There was nothing more a sub can do there to increase the chance of their torpedoes hitting the target. All I can do is get that double ping and launch torpedoes in an angle "as nice as possible". If a DD can dodge those torpedoes (yes, outplaying me) under those circumstances I would say that it's proof enough to say that homing torpedoes are s@#!. I know that I'm a noob, and people outplays me over and over again, that's fine and I don't get mad at it. It would be childish. The point is that homing torpedoes have a much lower skill ceiling than normal torpedoes, all you can do is double ping and try to get a tricky angle. If I miss with normal torpedoes it means that my aiming/predicting skills are s@#!; if double pinged homing torpedoes from 3km with a nice angle miss I'd say that it's not my skill that's crap, but the torpedoes themselves since they are the ones doing their job.

I know that T5 BBs can me matched VS T6 subs, but comparing T5 and T6 ships is unfair. It's logical to assume that a T6 ship will have an advantage VS a T5. Regarding my incident with the DD, of course I messed up. I went into an unsafe position and there was an undetected cruiser nearby of which I wasn't aware. I'm not complaining about getting depth charged and sunk there, but it shows that if a sub gets caught in a bad position it will be punished and, most likely, sunk without any chance of survival for the sub there. And trying to get advantageous positions avoiding unsafe ones is not easy. What I may complain about is that even at that short range and double ping homing torpedoes can be dodged by a DD, when they are supposed to be "effective against nimble targets". I took a massive risk and launched my torpedos in the best conditions possible and, even then, the DD came unscratched and I got sunk.

I don't know man, I've seen BBs of all types dodging my torpedoes just by steering 30º. Homing torpedos are not like normal torpedos which can cover a large area and are indeed harder to dodge for a BB. Homing ones all go to the same point and stop homing you at 1.5km (or even more with a tier X submarine). If you avoid going to that point you dodge all torpedoes. You may get hit by one or two if they had a tricky trajectory, but that damage is not a big deal for a BB. Maybe a New Mexico can't, I don't know, but in my experience that would be an exception. On the other hand, I've just double pinged a DD that was 3km from me and, even then, he was able to dodge them. Then someone detected me, DD turned back and blew the s%!@ out of me from 100% to 0% with a depth charge run. Regarding BBs ASW, lowest tier sub is VI. Lowest ASW range for a tier VI BB is 8km, not 4 or 5. Next sub tier is VIII, from there BBs have 10km range and 2 flights with 2 4.2k damage bombs each. Plus, if a BB is throwing ASW at a sub, chances are that he will not be alone, so for a couple of BBs the "effective cooldown" would be 15s. The more I play subs, the more I'm convinced that they are not OP. I won't say that they're underpowered but I definitely don't see them as OP.

I'm starting to change my mind on this topic... I said that I found BB's easier to hit than cruisers but now I'm not so sure anymore. Lately I've many games with BB's dodging torpedos with a LARGE margin, pursued some for quite some time and accomplished nothing but waste time. I suppose that it's because I'm still a friggin' noob and I don't know how to play subs properly, but I'm starting to find it quite frustrating.

WG doesn't force you to use DCP to avoid torpedoes, you don't need it. Their homing capabilities end when they are around 1km and a half away for a double ping on BBs which is enough to "bullfight" them.

80 seconds + 10 to 20 more seconds from usage time, since cooldown doesn't start to run until the activation time of DCP ends. During that activation time torpedo's cooldown time is already running so effective cooldown difference is even bigger. But the thing is that, as I said, I noticed that battleships are able to dodge homing torpedoes pretty consistently just by "hiding" their broadside once they detect them. So they don't really need (once again, according to my limited experience) to use DCP to avoid torpedoes. Homing cut-off range for battleships is really big and makes things easier for them.

Hello. Yes, I'm new as I already said and no, I haven't played a lot of BB. My experience is based on sub gameplay. Obviously if I start playing BB now I won't be able to dodge homing torps because I'm not used to it, and by no means I'm saying that dodging torps doesn't require skill. I say what I say because I see lots of BBs dodging my torps without using DCP (which, as other people told me, is unlimited except for Soviet BBs) or compromising the safety of their position. And AFAIK, homing torps skill ceiling is not much higher than being able to land double ping consistently, so I'm not sure how much can I improve on that to make them harder to dodge. And, by the way, I want to make clear that I'm aware that my experience is really limited and my no means I think that my opinion is a valuable one