CAG_Bramsito

Ok, so I thought I'd pitch in as well. Long time listener, first time poster. I'm a huge submarine fan so I'm happy to see that WG is implementing them. That said, I really like that they're fragile and not powerful at all. They don't feel game breaking in their current state. If WG would allow them in randoms right now (they shouldn't! they need some more time in the oven), there would probably just be some salt that subs are taking up slots of ships that DO influence the battle :P. I've played all the classes, DD, CA & CL, BB and CV. Anyway, here are my observations. By no means is this the hard truth, just my opinion. First off, a concern. During my testing, I have never played a match without bots. In fact, I've never played a match where more then half of the enemy team were actually players. The highest number of players in DDs that I've seen is two. This means that the nature of the current testing is not fully representative. The skill level of the AI is not that great which meant that playing as a DD, I have managed to kill all three subs and getting away with it. And this is coming from maybe the worst DD player that WOWS has ever seen (yes, I'm working on my "don't yolo" skills). I hope the next round of testing will fill up the test servers to their full capacity. Now, on to my observations. Feedback on submarines themselves In general Having played both the Cachelot and the U-69, it's nice to see the differences in handling. More on that later. A small bug (I think) is that I seem to be "located" by a DD for the rest of the match, even if all DD's have died. Speed I think submarine speeds are fine as is. 24kts surfaced is fine for positioning. 3kts (a.k.a. stationary) for periscope depth is also fine. It's nice that I still have ample turning rate to point my sub in the right direction. Submerged speed of 17~18kts is also fine if you ask me. It's kinda like moving around the map as a BB. ...but without the situational awareness. I really like the turning speed at periscope depth. I hope this will remain the same. It allows me to still get my boat pointed in the right direction after the torpedo lead indicator becoming available. Armaments Torpedoes are fine. I think the changes to the damage were a good call. Increase in base damage (non- & single pinged) and reduction in citadel damage (for the double pinged torps). I hope these damage changes will relieve the anxiety among some of the community that are afraid of a repeat of what happened to Navy Field. I never played NF myself, but I did some reading and subs were supposedly one of several contributors to that games' downfall. Since I can't sink a BB as a sub in one go, I'm hoping this will reduce some of the PTSD :P. With their current long cooldown I feel I have to make careful decisions on whether I will try to keep a set torps in reserve or go all in with the damage if I think I can make them land. Deck guns, these would be really great if enabled. First of all for sub-vs-sub interaction (especially during late game). Second of all, sometimes your target has just a sliver of HP left and it would be really nice to just be able to fire the deck gun. I can see the reason why WG probably hasn't enabled them since in the future at T10, there will be the type XXI and type XXVI which don't have deck guns. That said, deck guns would be great right now at T6. I'm happy to see that in this second round, torpedo homing works against enemy subs. I've managed to get 3 hits in my games and one resulted in a kill. This was mostly due to the sub not paying attention. Which happens quickly because of your engagement range, you'll have to put yourself close to a lot of enemy ships. That tends to cause a lot of chaos for my mind and has also made me fall prey to missing the fact I was being pinged. For the end-game though, sub-vs-sub interaction is still very limited as the torpedoes can still be dodged. The deck guns would help here. Consumables Feedback regarding the "maximum depth" consumable. I love that I have the consumable. A suggestion from me would be to rename it to "crash dive", and once I activate it, it just takes me to my maximum depth right away. Preferably at a slightly faster rate than currently implemented, because I tend to use this consumable in an "oh-crap!"-moment! when I've messed up my positioning. U-69 (unlocked this one first) This sub sails more like a CA or BB due to it's slow speed and very large turning circle. I like it, see next bullet. This makes position very important as you cannot run away if you mess up by getting too close to other ships. The 9km torps become 7,2km with the torpedo acceleration captain skill. Interestingly, current torpedo speeds combined with the ping reload also put a very hard limit on the minimum engagement range. Within 3~4km, you barely have enough time to land your pings because it takes something like 5 or even 8 seconds to reload. Personally, I think this is fine. And for the U-69 the pings need to be refreshed after 35 seconds if you want to keep them guided. These factors combined create a "zone" between 4km and 7,2km where you can engage enemy targets as a submarine. This is again fine in my opinion as this requires subs to carefully consider their positioning. The model looks gorgeous. Dive time is shorter and recharges more quickly compared to Cachalot. Personally I think this is fine as is at is requires the sub player to carefully plan their positioning. Cachalot (unlocked this in the first round of testing through earning the necessary base xp) This sub sails more like a DD or CL due to it's tighter turning circle. This makes the sub a lot more forgiving when you mess up your positioning Using the torpedo acceleration captain skill on this submarine would sacrifice too much range for me as it will become very difficult to hit retreating targets. (the U-69 with torp acceleration is already quite tricky to play) The engagement range for this submarine is something like 4~8km. Too close and you cannot get your pings off, to long and your torps won't reach. Pings from the Cachelot currently don't need a "refresh ping" since their duration feels like forever compared to U-69. This means that the Cachelot is a lot more forgiving in positioning. The dive time of Cachalot is nice and long, but so is the oxygen recharge rate. In that sense, Cachalot is more forgiving for a single torpedo run, but requires you to disengage and catch your breath (pun intended). Submarines VS other classes Getting hunted by a DD as a submarine usually just means the end. You have one shot at getting a torpedo hit by waiting until the very last second. If you miss, you're done. Because even if your second pair of torps is ready to go, there's a 5 second cooldown after firing your first set. By that time the DD will be on top of you and throwing depth charges. I actually like this! DD's should be a hard counter to subs, and personally, I feel select cruisers (just like radar doesn't come on every single one) should get depth charges too. VS DDs, I have not once manage to successfully evade a DD. Doing a "last stand" where I wait at periscope depth until the very last second to fire my torpedoes also hasn't paid off in this second round since the DD still dodged them. In the first round of testing I managed to kill a DD because he was rushing directly at me. I guess the 300m homing limit vs DDs doesn't help. All in all, I think this is fine since I'm not supposed to win from a class designed to hunt and destroy me. VS CLs, they usually manage to evade my torps. Especially now the guidance stops within 600m of a CA/CL since this gives them enough time to dodge them. Even the AI easily evades the torps in my experience. VS CAs, the same VS CVs, rocket planes do plenty of damage, but aren't an instant kill. RN bombers are pretty much an instant kill. If you're lucky, you walk away with 10% HP. USN bombers are painful too, but you kind of hear/see them coming due to their longer attack approach and can be avoided by quickly hitting the dive key. You are safe from torpedoes since they even pass over your bow and stern. Getting a fighter squadron dropped over you sucks big time as a sub since that forces you to stay submerged or you get surprise-detected when you surface. I think this is a good thing, planes were historically a submarine's bane. VS BBs, against human players the success rate of a hit really depends on the player. I've seen testers that rush in and simply take my torps (I assume these are players that are new to the game). And I've seen testers that play more cautiously and wait further back. These ones usually knew my torps were coming since after I pinged two/thee times they would turn nose in (I assume these are more experienced players). Secondaries don't really kill you out right, but if you're closer to the enemy team and the secondaries of a BB and a CA/CL start firing you, you'll soon wish you hadn't let those secondaries eat away at your health. It goes kinda fast and I think this is fine. VS other subs... this is still not a thing. While I've managed to hit other sub drivers with a ping while they were distracted, this won't work for the endgame. Again, deck guns :). Other classes VS submarines Feedback on DDs vs submarines I played as Fubuki, Farragut, Gaede, Icarus and Fushun. DDs are absolutely deadly vs submarines. I like it! Making depth charges manual feels more involved. I'm the one that's dropping the charges and killing the sub as opposed to letting my ship kill the sub for me. It's a bit difficult do describe, but I like the change compared to round 1. The three charges are great. Three is enough so that you can drop them all if you're certain about a sub location and kill it. Usually, two uses of the depth charge "consumable" was enough. What I like most is that I actually have to think about how many I will drop. The reload of the depth charges is also fine to me. I once used all three and the sneaky sub driver had managed to turn away. While initially I though I was out of charges, by the time I caught up with the sub one of the charges was already off it's cooldown. So in practice you kinda have an infinite supply. Firing your HE at a sub doesn't seem like it has a lot of effect. But being on the receiving end, 500hp bites being taken out of your health for a short while adds up quickly. So I'd recommend firing the main batteries at subs if your position/concealment allows it. I had no problems avoiding incoming sub torps. But I haven't had the "pleasure" of eating a pair when I've smoked up. This will require more testing and see opening concern. Feedback on CL/CA vs submarines I played as Dallas and Pensacola. CL/CA are quite capable against subs with their HE. Once you figure out you have to point your reticle at the depth number of the sub, the hits are consistent. You don't really feel you're doing a lot of damage, but having been on the receiving end of accurate CL/CA fire, it hurts plenty! If subs ever get introduced in randoms, CLs and CAs will have to help out DDs with firing at subs. Dodging torps as a cruiser wasn't really a problem. But, it requires good situational awareness. I imagine a good sub captain being extremely patient and not giving away his position in the first 5 minutes and only pinging his torps at the last second to get good hits. I really wouldn't mind select cruisers having depth charges since it would help in the late game to take out submarines. Feedback on CVs vs submarines I played as Ranger. CVs can make short work of subs when a sub driver is distracted. This usually happens mid-game when there are lots of targets and as a sub driver you feel surrounded by enemies (you're not actually within enemy lines, but you're pretty close to it, so your periphery is quite full of enemies). In the early game, it's hard to detect submarines since they see your planes coming. In the late game, subs are usually more low on oxygen, so then there's a slightly higher chance of detecting them. I imagine a good submarine captain will manage his oxygen in such a way that he'll try to stay hidden from CV players, see the next two bullets. With dive bombers you can even take them out in a single pass. I haven't tried the IJN AP bombers yet, those are supposedly completely ineffective from what I've been reading. Using rocket planes is also quite doable, but you won't kill a submarine in a singe pass. But you might not get a second pass of on the sub since the first one took out 30~50% of his health and he will now be diving away like crazy. Feedback on BBs vs submarines I played as Fuso. I found it easy to handle subs in a BB. Becoming detected and having "last known position" enabled on the mini-map meant I more or less knew the direction a sub was coming. On top of that, the subs usually ping, so then I know their exact locations. At that point I will just turn bow in (or out, depending on the situation) and I would only eat one torp. I haven't tried blind firing HE using the mini-map. This could be interesting. As a sub however, I have been oneshotted. Additionally, my secondaries open up on spotted subs as well. While it didn't really feel like they were doing anything, I knew from my sub driving that they at least had some impact. Closing remarks Personally, I think submarines are in a great place. They're fragile, stealthy, require skill in positioning, require situational awareness and can land a reasonably painful set of torps every now and then. They will for sure change up the meta, but it is not clear yet in which way. With half the team being bots and most human players playing to test (instead of playing to win), we'll have to see what the gameplay will become.