Captain_Newman

TBH I wish these containers would just never relase. More people in premium CV's in MM is pretty much the last thing this game needs.

WG has no idea what compensating even means. They said they wanted to remove the ability of a CV to permaspot the whole map, so they "fix" that by giving a CV control over only one squad at a time. ... and then they introduce multiple CV's per team, even in t10, and equip them with infinite planes that can almost teleport around the map, especially rocket planes, essentially removing stealth. Good job. Want to help dd's, wg? Get rid of sky cancer the majority of players doesn't want anyway. Radar is manageable for any good dd player with a brain the way it is. You're even adjusting ranges so it's easier to remember.. this catering to the lowest common denominator is giving me a headache.

Completely unnecessary changes. What was so wrong with the flooding mechanics? Flooding is supposed to be a very bad thing. Can you think of even more things to demotivate dd play? Clearly rocket planes with warp drives attached weren't enough... As for the radar changes, can you please stop trying to balance the game around the low 40% players who die in their dd's because they are completely incapable of learning how to play vs radar? There's plenty of things a dd player can do there: - check team lineup and see how many radars there are; - learn to predict where they will be on certain maps; - learn to spot them without getting insta nuked, so they can either torp them or allow their cruisers and bb's to focus them down; - learn to bait radar by positioning so quick escape with minimal damage is possible. Yet you decide to go cater to crybabies who refuse to learn any of the above things, thus making the gameplay less interesting for anyone interested in actually skillful dd play. Players who die in the first 2 min because they yoloed their dd's straight into radar cruisers, then rage at "noob team no support", then go off to the forums to complain about radar as if it's some kind of unavoidable death ray.. guess what, they will never improve, and will thus never be happy and will always cry about something. Trying to balance the game around these players is an exercise in futility.

One class shouldn't be a wolf to every other classes sheep though. CV's may have been OP in real life, but translating that to the game makes for terrible balancing and a bad experience overall. But leaving OP or not aside, my main concern is what the heavy CV meta does to gameplay. So far what we've witnessed is an effective removal of stealth, which for me has had a negative effect in how much interesting I find matches; the non CV ones are just more fun, win or lose - the tactics used, the way it's played, it's just better. Being able to ambush and outplay someone because you were able to correctly utilize your stealth is fun and requires skill. You need to know where the enemy radars, hydros, dd's are. You need to anticipate what they'll do and position accordingly. You need to outplay. All of that goes out the window when everyone is constantly spotted by planes so it's just blob vs. blob. It's boring. And the only way ramping up the AA, like the current hotfix did, helps address that is by lowering the CV population so non CV games are possible again - and with them, fun. I also completely reject the idea that this poll is irrelevant because those who are happy don't go to the forums. I move around various wows related communities / discord servers and people who actually like this are rare. They do exist, but the vast majority dislike this heavily, and a lot just play ranked and avoid randoms entirely. The sample size of this poll covers a higher percentage of players than your typical election poll does voters, so I wouldn't call it irrelevant (not to mention that if we were to follow this logic of the poll being irrelevant, we'd reach the conclusion that every single online poll about a game is always irrelevant because only unhappy people vote, yet there's plenty of polls I've seen over the years showing player satisfation). In addition, CV gameplay is currently in the process of being changed heavily on a weekly basis with hotfixes bringing balancing changes - you'd think that those who actually like CV's would have an interest in going to the forums and participating in the conversation; giving WG feedback on how to best balance the class they like, since it's literally a work in progress atm.

We're starting to reach a respectable sample size here. Are we still going to pretend that those who like the CV's are just as numerous but somewhere else and not voting, or acknowledge that this update is heavily disliked by the majority? And btw WG, with the state of balance being what it is, releasing a yet another CV line is a truly special decision. Like dousing fire with gasoline.

That, fundamentally, is the issue. I'll admit, playing CV's can be fun, in a derpy, brainless kind of way (honestly, it doesn't require that much skill or tactics, short of understanding which targets you should prioritize and realizing you're not a static airfield and should definitely move your ship to not get ambushed by dd's). But that is the only thing that is currently fun to play. I tried the other classes and it's just... annoying and boring. Everyone blobs, dd's included if they're even on the team - I've had multiple battles with no dd's at all now. The old tactics of actually supporting your dd's, setting up flanks and crossfires, etc, all irrelevant now, it's just one AA blob vs the other AA blob. If you dare play a DD, radar cruisers aren't even that big of a threat anymore - I mean, you're constantly spotted from the air, anyway, so as long as you don't smoke up in range of radar, it's not like they can surprise you; and thanks to CV's removing all stealth from the game, you always know exactly where they are, you don't even need to guess at the most probable locations. It's just a brainless derp fest that will get very old, very fast, and if they don't fix this quickly they will lose the kind of players that stick around for years, and will have to keep replacing them with those that show up for a few weeks, then leave for year, then maybe revisit it for 2 days after that. Not sure it's a viable business model, tbh, this could literally kill the game - randoms are just unplayable in anything but a CV right now. Like I said before, the best option is to literally remove the entire class. Failing that, at least limit CV's to ONE per team, and outright remove rocket planes; they counter DD's way too hard. That trick you mentioned about turning off AA as a DD, yes we know WG. That just helps against the first strike; in case you didn't notice, the rocket planes have warp drives and have multiple strike capability. Smokes can help a bit, though the DD has to turn off his AA and hold his guns completely so the CV can't still hit him in his smoke. It's just ridiculous how helpless DD's are against CV's right now. Yes, you can mitigate damage a bit by turning into the planes, making it harder for the CV to land multiple rockets, but given how fast he can do his multiple drops, hit F the moment he's out of rockets or threatened, then be back in a minute, it's literally impossible to avoid losing massive chunks of your DD's health if a CV decided he wants you dead. Not to mention that if you have to constantly dodge air attacks through the entire battle, you are: a) prevented from doing a DD's job, and b) annoyed as hell because it's really, really not fun for a DD. A class that is fun to play but makes everything else cancer is a badly designed class. Delete CV's please. Before it's too late.

Plenty of good suggestions here. I'd like to add one more thing - the matchmaking of t6 CV's is atrocious. Everyone blobs now, even the dd's, and I'm not sure what am I supposed to do with a Ryujo or Ranger vs. a blob containing ships like NC's, baltis, etc. There's literally nobody isolated, everyone blobs (this is an issue at large with this update btw), even the dd's just go close to their blob when planes approach. If you're lucky enough to get top tier, you can play and get work done. But when 8/10 games are in t8 MM, the t6 CV's are a really frustrating experience.

Oh, I don't know, I've heard plenty of CV mains being unhappy about this change. Seeing a CV main-only opinion poll would certainly be interesting, but ultimately if the majority of the player base hates it, it should be reason enough to do something about it. And I sincerely doubt subs, if added, will impact the game this much. Will they get rid of all tactics and turn it into a boring blob vs. blob derp fest? Will they make another whole class almost extinct in the MM, as CV's do to DD's now? I highly doubt it. I don't think it's a particularly good or constructive analogy, though, as we have no idea how WG would balance them if they even choose to add them into the game, so a bit useless to use them as a comparison right now.

I would like to encourage people to do two things: 1) Keep this thread alive and active, and 2) You have clan mates, or you're a member of different discord servers for various wows related communities? Link this poll. Encourage people to vote, no matter what their opinion on this update might be. While the current poll results are certainly telling, a larger sample size is always better, and harder for WG to dismiss as rantings of a vocal minority. ATM it's not even that bad of a sample size, but I'd definitely like to see more votes pour in.

I see the majority is still reacting positively.. for some other update of another game. Boy oh boy this one is absolutely terrible. Restrict CV's to one per team, remove rocket planes (they basically make playing dd's a lol no, they counter them hard without any skill needed to do so), and go back to the old system (meaning get rid of the g***amn sector system which is clunky and awkward to use, nobody likes it, and doesn't appear to do much. I literally had a JB game with 0 plane kills, using the sector and speccing for AA which, ty wargaming btw, does nothing now).

"Positive reactions across the board".

No, you do not have the right to like it. Stop being so selfish by liking it. See how amazing an argument that is?

Sure, though just the fact that a bunch of people ask for a refund (and are denied) is a massive pr nightmare.

I would refund it immediately without a second thought. And should they make the game not boring again by removing or heavily reigning in this CV crap, then and only then would I consider investing in premium time again. Never again will I pay for a year of gameplay in advance when the developer can mess the game up this hard at any point and make it unplayable. Live and learn...

By that logic, every time a developer receives only negative feedback, they can still claim the majority reacted positively, they're just not posting their opinions. Seems legit. Now, if only we had some kind of weird, next level technology that would allow people online to express their opinions easily by simply voting... Oh wait, we do have that. Positive feedback, indeed. 80% heavily disliking it, and counting. Granted, the sample size isn't that huge right now, but the voter count is rising quickly, but somehow all those "positive reactions" weegee talked about have yet to materialize... Just taking the current amount of players online and playing is a terrible metric at the moment, because the patch just hit and people are logging in to check the new stuff out. The player count was always going to be high after an update that brings changes that are this big. The true test comes in a week or two, when the novelty value wears off. In the mean time, you have online reactions and polls. And so far those are almost unanimously negative.

I'm seriously regretting buying my year of premium right now. Unless they make this game about ships, and not some weird world of warplanes offshoot, and insist on keeping this boring system, I don't see myself staying for very long. The game is a snooze fest right now. And if you happen to like playing dd's every now and then, sucks to be you comrade. 0.8.0 needs to be placed where it belongs - in the garbage bin. At this point I'd pay money to just be allowed to play the pre-0.8.0 game, as cancerous as CV games could be back then at least it was somewhat rare and the matches in between could actually be interesting. Right now the only thing playable is ranked, and that comes with a time limit attached. I don't remember a single game I've played releasing an update that ruined it this hard, ever. And keep in mind I still remember the whole "press play on tape" as a kid on my cousin's commodore 64, so it's not like I started gaming yesterday. This is a different game now, and not the one I spent money on. If they persist with this crap I think we should start asking for full refunds en-masse.

I know what you mean. The issue is, random battles are so incredibly boring right now. And I suspect those that aren't there yet will be soon. When the novelty value of this wears off they will need to react fast or lose massive amounts of players. The game could always be frustrating, but it was rarely actually boring. I don't see this ending well without a fast and radical reaction.

Shhh, I found sikrit dokumentz that outline the backup plan in detail. The code name for the backup plan is "War Thunder". But don't tell anyone, is top sikrit komrade

This is the problem, in a nutshell. All the CV spam means that you now have very limited options on how to build, position and play your ship. It even limits which ships you can still play effectively - something that was designed to operate alone from a flank is going to suffer now. DD's have literally no counter play to immediate loss of HP given how brainlessly easy it is to damage them with rocket planes. Worst of all, randoms are boring now. Whether I play a CV or another type of ship, I'm bored. The old tactics where the team that positioned better, flanked properly, set up crossfires, played the objectives, that all went out the window. Now it's about one blob whittling down another blob. When I go ranked, aka the no sky cancer zone, it's just amazing how different it is - it's like a completely different game in there. One that is actually way more interesting. I still think they should just delete CV's as a class. But WG, if you insist on keeping sky cancer, there are some options to make it more palatable: - if you want to keep the reworked system, get rid of rocket planes, and give all CV's both ap and he bombers. This way going for dd's and removing half their HP with the first rocket squad launched isn't possible anymore - if you want to damage one it actually takes skill to drop it. ATM dd's are pretty much dead. In addition, limit the amount of CV's to ONE per team. The idea behind controlling only one squad at a time so CV's can't spot the entire map anymore doesn't work if you allow 3 CV's per team and give rocket planes warp drives! - the old RTS system was actually a far more interesting concept, made untenable by some very poor decision making on your part, WG. You're the ones who came up with the absolutely broken AP bombers that don't seem to care about flying through AA cruiser's def AA until after they've dropped. You're the ones that made t9 and t10 CV's broken, with Midway's planes sometimes feeling invulnerable, particularly with things like that legendary mod nobody asked for to be introduced into the game. You're the ones that made most premium CV's blatantly p2w broken. So after all these "spectacular" decisions, it needs a rework? Hmmm, I wonder why.. - introduce a CV game mode and keep them out of randoms. There's way to make this work, since it's a separate game mode you can invent new rules to make this work, much like arms race plays differently. As it is, CV's are a crap sandwich. There are ways to mask the taste of excrement in said sandwich, and you can choose to go down that road at least, but honestly the optimal solution, and one that keeps the game about ships and not planes, and actually makes battles interesting, is removing them. You might find this necessary anyway, because when the novelty value of the rework wears off, I predict you'll start seeing declining numbers in player population. I have close to 8.5k battles and have never felt less motivated to play than right now. Not because I'm burnt out, but because I can't play the game that I actually like - the rework changed the gameplay of everything so much, I don't really enjoy the matches anymore. Randoms are quite simply boring. Delete the whole class, bite the full compensation bullet, before it's too late. It might mean a slight delay in your lootbox-funded moonbase, but it's worth it if it makes the game, y'know, not die.

It's difficult to not see a difference in the volume of negative feedback between this and pretty much any of the other past patches. Speaking personally, it's not my goal to be toxic, but looking at the game as a whole and not just from the perspective of a single class, I have great concerns about this negatively impacting the health, and as a result the ultimate survival of this game. I'd like it to be fun to play and live, and I have serious doubts about this being the correct route to get there. I don't see how not expressing this constitutes as "not being toxic". I will gladly offer positive feedback when I think something is good, and have done so in the past - the irony here is that what actually is toxic, however, is automatically branding anyone expressing concerns and giving negative feedback as toxic. I'm merely noticing that every time I see a thread or comments section on this topic, it's overwhelmingly filled with negative feedback, way more so than any of the other patches I've seen.

WG still claims most people react positively to this. I wonder where they are and why they're all avoiding this thread, and every other venue where people publicly post their opinions about changes to wows Every time I see a discussion about the rework, WG gets absolutely trashed in the comments, yet they still maintain most people like this. Must be a nice fantasy world they live in.

The bad stuff most people don't like: - 3 CV's per team. What are you smoking, weegee? First, you say that CV's are too powerful and in need of a rework. Well, what is the one thing that made them powerful? The ability to spot the whole map and keep it spotted. So then you say, we'll just let a CV control one squad at one time, problem solved, and then invalidate this solution completely by allowing 3 CV's on each side. Everyone will be permaspotted by planes all the time now. Fun fun. - CE changes: nobody asked for this. Has the potential to make bb's and cruisers camp even more, making gameplay even more passive. Not that it matters since everyone will be permaspotted by sky cancer, anyway. - Gun bloom changes: who exactly complained about this? It was fine. - The impact a single CV has certainly won't be smaller with the ability to absolutely murder dd's with rocket planes. Killing dd's and win rate are very closely tied together. Overall, your fixes are either going to make existing problems worse, or they are fixing things that didn't need fixing. When most of the player base keeps outright saying they don't want this stuff and you keep saying "according to our records a lot of players reacted positively", don't be surprised when you find yourself doing one emergency patch after another when you start hemorrhaging players left and right. Deleting CV's entirely and abandoning the CE changes would be the smartest thing to do now, but I guess you need to start losing massive amounts of players before you see the plainly obvious writing on the wall here.

"These ships have already been replaced with a French Tier IX battleship Jean Bart, and we also plan to offer U.S. Tier IX cruiser Alaska in the near future." I don't think you understand what "near future" means. You said Alaska was ready almost two months ago now. Then you went on to do the fire duration nerf, but everyone still assumed that she'll be out when Kron and Musashi are removed. And now you're still holding her back? There's a difference between creating hype and just dragging things so much people lose interest. And nobody is going to accept that "these two have been replaced by Jean Bart", since: - the JB has been available for some time now, and - two ships are being removed, so it stands to reason they would be replaced by two ships. Unless my math is wrong because counting to two is just too hard, you're missing one. Can you stop dragging the Alaska release along until eternity?

Yes, poor CV mains, indeed. People cry about nothing! After all, it's fun that a match depends on that one guy, and if you get a potato CV vs a unicum one, the match is pretty much over, having been decided on the loading screen. It's fun to be forced to blob up and not go where you would be most useful, instead, only to have an enemy midway fly through a bunch of DM's and Worcesters and ap bomb delete one of them, anyway, because it's so "fair and balanced, learn to counter it". (Hint, bunching up against midway's ap bombers simply doesn't work in most cases). It's fun to totally depend on that one random dude who will most likely fail, and have almost no impact compared to him. It's fun to continually be placed in situations you have no real counter for. It's fun to have your dd's permaspotted across the whole map. It's totally fun to watch your team get farmed one by one from absolute safety by a ship that is stealth and in cover on the other side of the map - love him, people, this is so much fun he's providing you! Yes, it's really a wonder why people "cry" about CV's - we should totally love these stat padders that ruin everyone else's experience. If things weren't this bad, they wouldn't require a complete rework. There's a reason why this class is only played by 3% (most of which can't really play it), and is hated by most. The only issue here is, CV rework or delete? I still vote delete, I actually think the CV rework will potentially make things worse and the game unplayable.

Adam Jensen was asked to comment on the CV rework.