NothingButTheRain

Perhaps he uses a potato pc and the camos just take ages to load Btw, it may also be the lighting, some camos are hard to distinguish with certain light angles. I had this with a Scharnhorst last week of which I thought it had no camo? But then I saw the icy spike things and it turned out to be the icy special camo the Scharnhorst has.

His question doesn't have an issue with reading comprehension, but more to do with game mechanics. Btw, wherever I see you write something here on the forum, why so toxic all the time?

I finished the Halsey campaign, finally! That was fun to watch He overextended and you did what you had to do He was agitated, but only for a few brief moments. I had the same distinction as you (not as much raging though but he didn't like my Monarch while he was in his Amagi. He was also outnumbered then ). It's hillarious to watch! And only by seeing myself from the red team's eyes did I notice I was actually not as well angled as I thought I was

Correct...but this (together with the others who had been gathering stats) is the best information that we got. And at least it's more reliable then a single screenshot of someone who had a good game with DD in ops. Not having ALL data does not automatically invalidate these statistics. It's actually quite common practice to do stats analyzing based on a certain sample size It's your call to either believe or not believe information you received from other sources (be it stats or opinions or a mixture of the two). But the opinion about the relative uselessness of destroyers in operations is a somewhat widespread one. Btw I solo virtually all operations, only now and again I bring someone else with me. And I actually have counted divved ops and solo ops separately, because when it comes to stats analyzing I prefer to do it the correct way Do you bring any friends into operations? And there is one other thing to say about player quaility: It takes much more skill to play DD well then to play BB or CA/CL well. Put that same noob from his Fubuki into a Budyonny or a Bayern or something and you can imagine the benefit to the team this has

If I were to look at how experienced both of us are in operations, I think both of us have played a good amount of battles if I look at the awards both of us have received for succesfull completions. I know this isn't fully accurate but suffice to say that we both are not noobs in operations, wouldn't you agree? I agree with you on the stats for operations not being public. I'm not even sure they keep these stats at all? Except maybe for the awards? I suppose they do have stats but not made public. This is actually part of the reason why I ended up making my own stats. Obviously I will have to count ALL operations I play, as it would be pointless to invalidate my own games by cheating on them So I count every single operation battle I play, no matter how craptastic my performance was. I screenshot everything!....... EDIT: Btw, I added you to my list of good scenario players. Perhaps we could team up together at some point. I'm pretty sure it would be to the benefit of both of us

The question on what is OP is actually an interesting one I wasn't around when this big IJN DD nerf hit, but everything pointed out they were just as OP as the Kamikazes were (please note that I'm actually withholding saying they were OP back then). I also don't know why these were nerfed. Perhaps too many people were complaining about them? But alas, the bold statement is not true. OP is being much too strong compared to something else. A ship being OP is basically a ship being OP compared to other ships (it will actually encounter). It's irrelevant if ship A got nerfed or ship B got buffed. The point is that noobs will encounter the now OP ship B and will not like it.

But I do have more to go on, I have stats to back up my claims. And this is besides my own personal experience. Btw, there was a topic about this in which several people made claims alongside their own little personal stats databases. One even had went so far as to look up the winrates of all teammates that ended up in operations with him and presented stats based on how much potatoes he had on his team Everyone can have impressions, but those can be biased. One funny thing was however that my own personal impression about DDs was a bit worse then my own stats made them out to be (so my own personal impression was also somewhat biased), but according to my stats they were still underperforming in both the number of stars achieved in relation to the amount of DD players we had, and the amount of XP received post battle in relation to all non-DD players. The vast majority of DDs end up in the very bottom of the list, usually the lowest 3 spots. The expected result with, for instance 2 DDs, is to see them at 7th and 5th position in the post battle results. That's underperforming.

The Kamikazes have not started out as OP, but the point is that they are now. Hence why they are OP now and why it is a problem now. I suppose we both know that OP is a relative thing. But in this case, Kamikaze is OP. I suppose you're not trying to argue with that? I'm unsure as to why mentioning OP premium divs (of which we all know very well how most of these battles are gonna end) has no basis of argument according to you. I was mentioning my mate more to illustrate the frustration these OP (premium) ships bring to the game, a game for which WG(at times in questionable ways) tries to either bring new players into the game, or bring veterans back by luring them with free stuff. And about the last bit. On the contrary to what you seem to believe, I don't need to think for two. This mate of mine is a WoT veteran with more battles in WoT then you have in WoT and WoWS combined. And with such OP premiums (and things like for example our Ranger going afk after seeing what he was up against), his personal inexperience is kinda illustrating the point I was making regarding OP premiums chasing away new players. So it's pretty much relevant.

I do it the manual way. Screenshots and some basic stats management. Where are you getting your information from? Are you even aware of how other DDs (under)perform in ops rather consistently?

There are a few players who know how to use DDs in operations, but how about your DD collegues? How do the DDs in your team that are not you perform? According to the stats I have processed, DDs are the most massive underperformers. The fact that I perform very well in CV in operations also doesn't make me a good CV player in randoms...kinda like you are in DD good in operations and not so good in randoms (according to your own words).

Ah, I see. So in a nutshell the problem could be described kinda like that this game is becomming more arcady? And arcade gameplay requires fewer brain cells, it's more a matter of shooting all the red stuff with the only consideration for positioning being to aim as many guns to the red thingy as you can, as quick as you can. Is this somewhat correct?

A day ago or so, I managed to get a double strike in my Bismarck in bottom tier! I was basically spamming HE most of the time when I lit up a Montana, and the next salvo I fired at an enemy DD with around 600hp. ANd literally a second before I killed the DD, the Montana burned to death. It was hillarious! The rest of the battle was kinda uneventful compared to this moment. I even managed to survive with barely anything, but oh boy did they try to kill me

Many people were complaining about the Rich though, but I liked playing Richelieu I actually liked Rich more then I liked Lyon I can't seem to make Bismarck work though I wouldn't want to compare Bismarck and Rich as similar though, they play very differently despite both having similar guns (sans the dispersion perhaps) and both do secondary jobs. But I loved Amagi and CM (mostly due to dual cata fighters and speed boost) and am getting the hang of NC more recently But if I were to rate the tier 8 ships according to how much fun they were to me, I'd put them in order of most to least funtage: Rich, Amagi, CM, Monarch, NC, Bismarck, Hipper, New Orleans (tier 8 version). Rich and Amagi were definitely the most fun to me. Monarch was fun to me as well, but took a while to get working. NC I kinda put her grind in the fridge, but lately taking her out again due to all the tier 9 nerfs making me undesicive about what tier 9 to play next and enjoying her. Bismarck, Hipper and old NO I found bad to terrible to play (Hipper post-buff isn't too bad but still not really enjoying her). I excluded Baltimore and Cleveland as I barely played those yet, but especially Balti was fun in the tier 8 ops. The thing is that Bismarck has bad dispersion, its guns scale very poorly and I end up in tier 10 battles (often with only 1 or 2, sometimes with NO other tier 8 ships), slinging HE all the time It's the dispersion and the shells that make Bismarck not work for me. And it's simply not tanky enough to get closer to enemies when bottom tiered. When top tier I would indeed assume Bismarck to (obviously) give better gameplay experience...but I kid you not I can't even remember the last top tier game I had in her (those modules) I don't mind Lyon, it will basically hit as many shells as any other BB with fewer guns (except Gneisenau, of course ) unless I let it get really close to me or something. If I see a Lyon, I just see an opponent BB just like most other BBs (except Gneis that is). I actually don't really mind playing vs a Conq either. I have more fear for Yamato and its guns and Rep has scary guns as well. Often you just have to bathe them, it's part of what it means to play BB. And Conq is also quite squishy. And more often won't put out fire so I love litting them for some extra xp But I think I'm a minority when it comes to the brit HE spam BBs. I think they are a nice change to play because of their differences and I don't care either way if I see one of those in the enemy team or if I see a non-brit BB. Things I do worry about in enemy team is OP premiums like Saipan ... The most important reason for me to hardly play cruiser anymore is because they seem so lackluster to me. And now they're nerfing the French tier 9 one, nice The high tier lines I'm kinda grinding are UK, USN and German BB and I have 4 cruiser lines on hold right now, but ready to pick those up again. The only high tier cruiser line I had been actively playing in randoms the last few months was the French line and now that that one gets nerfed, I guess it makes me a BB main, despite me not even wanting to be exclusive BB player.

I disagree!

I find even Bismarck to be ...lackluster, to say the least. I want to like her but I'm definitely not looking forward to the FdG Btw, I found Izumo the worst ship I played in this game so far I did buy Alsace, but it has terrible range, even though it supposedly uses the same guns as Rich? The USN tier 9 cruisers also seem kinda lackluster and the tier 9 French one is actually getting a nerf. To my recollection, the only techtree tier 9 ship that hasn't been nerfed recently (or left alone), is the Izumo....after I had spend a total amount of 200k fxp to skip the darned thing

So wait a minute....so if high tier matches were more dynamic, then the game would be braindead? Or do you mean that if lower tier games were also less dynamic, that the game would then be braindead? And if dispersion was good in all tiers, the game would be less dynamic, and thus more braindead or less braindead? Is more static gameplay more braindead to you or less braindead? I don't find any tier braindead btw, no matter the dispersion or the amount of yoloing. The French BBs were not OP, and I still wanted to play them. Same goes for the new CL line. It's more that I was busy with other lines and that tier 8 ops caught me by surprise so I did part of the gind in there. The old lines are not UP and I played those. I do agree with your stance on high tier gameplay not necessarily being the only end content. To me part of the end content is playing operations on a regular basis and trying to keep improving my game in there, as it's more relaxing and I have a bit more time to chat around in them :P But WG may think otherwise. I don't have Nelson but NM was a great ship to play! I kept it and even put a 10pt captain on it! But I find myself not having the opportunity to take her out once in a while. Same thing with Kongo. I don't think ±2 mm is bad. I do find that tier 8 is a hard tier to play atm with all the module grinding going on (I'm haing a hard time with my Bismarck here). Tier 5 is the same, but the maps played around those tiers are a lot more forgiving as they provide more cover. Frankly, I enjoy these maps more then the higher tier ones, overall The tier 9 ships are kinda terrible though, except for the Lion....but perhaps that's more because I actually did like Monarch and that ship is supposed to be legendarily bad I don't think powercreep is a necessity to keep the game flowing. But I can imagine the P2W elitists wanting this but those are the kinds of people one does not want around due to their general toxic nature and them easily voicing this.

Well, here is part of the actual problem. Tier 8 ops are meant to be harder then tier 6 ops, not the other way around. If OP wants harder ops, then the difficulty level of the higher tier ones should be elevated, not the ones where one often has to carry a couple noobs which is totally not the fault of the noobs themselves...many never even tried a scenario before and may litteraly have no idea what to expect. So either make the higher tier ones harder, or add hard mode. But don't go making all the tier 6 ones harder (because they are supposedly too easy and boring) and keep Cherry and Hermes in the top of the list of most easy operations. And frankly, I never really liked the higher difficulty level of the nerfed ops. They mostly made it impossible to carry with a few good to reasonably good people and made it almost impossible for the more casual gamer to farm xp in these. Now purple unicorn commando divs should have no problems with securing win after win, especially in the higher tier ones as those net more xp/battle. But leave the lower tier ones alone. Btw, I think your difficulty list is pretty accurate Afaic, there is no DD friendly operation. DDs in this ops consistently score lower on the xp list and more scenario battles fail the more DDs are part of your team. The gunboat ones are the least bad but most DDs end up doing mostly killstealing or prioritizing the easy juicy targets and ignoring enemies with guns, leaving fewer boats to mop up all the enemies that do shoot back... They are annoying, most will fail and die, most operations with more DDs end in failure and add more frustration. I'd ban DDs from KW if I had a say in this. Or at the VERY least limit them to 1 max.

Well, it is a good looking ship. But I wonder if it couldn't have received 406mm guns instead of the 380mm ones? My guess is that all countries will be receiving tier 9 and 10 freemiums...in itself not bad I think? But it would make for a gruesome grind I don't mind doing copy pastes by themselves? But I'd rather not see the tech tree ships get nerfed into frustrationgrinds in the process. I'm kinda hoping for the German or IJN supercruisers I was wondering the same thing The first reviews seemed to make it a kinda average ship with questionable guns. In itself maybe not a problem but there's already Scharnhorst and it got torps as well, which PEF is missing. I was kinda hoping for an accurate Kongo-ish ship (or just a premium Kongo at tier 5 maybe?), but for German captains. I could actually use a good ship at tier 6. If only they would've given it torpedos similar to Scharnhorst or maybe Tirpitz If it's not OP, at least make it fun. Or give it some special camo or something which has something extra? I was really looking forward to this ship (and addition of a tech tree line of German battlecruisers! ).

What's a DoT? *EDIT: Oh, Damage over time, correct?* Im not sure about the last bit, but if I suppose you meant the noob traps, I find these to actually be a high risk high reward part of a map. I'm talking about caps like the right most on the North or Northern Lights map or maps like Fault Line. Players who shouldn't sail into noob traps would've been a detriment to your team no matter what they do and forcing them would also force everyone else. The eneryone else players would get more frustrated by the lesser amount of choice and the noobs would still yolo and die well..anywhere. I sometimes stay at longer range (like 15 km, or more if it means I can cover more area like with ships like Yamato/Musashi), as being committed to a single cap means that if I had made the wrong choice, I can't reset the other cap (yes I do this from longer ranges and it regularly works) or have influence. I do want to point out that I'm totally not scared to take damage. But I do want to not die meaninglessly and I do make poor judgements when playing, if only due to lack of intelligence (not knowing where enemies are, not that other lack of ..you know? ).

Or worse...a DD that asks for support so he gets support. And then a couple BB/CA/CL are comitted and the DD pops smoke and starts farming damage Bonus points if at the moment the DD cloaks, all spotted enemies get unspotted and we all jsut sit there in wait Ah, I think I see where he's coming from D, otherwise known as a noobtrap I actually prefer those spots to remain in the maps though, you probably wouldn't have won anyway if D hadn't been that isolated Well actually, I get the timing wrong most of the time. I think my stats show this pretty well. I'm not a noob but I'm definitely no Flamu either (or at least not yet ) But having a basic understanding of the flow of a game and being able to punish inexperienced and impatient yolo idiots is preferable to having idiots punish everyone else for not yoloing so much. Weren't there some new game modes in the make that kinda had this? NoZoupForYou also talked about this, this was a couple months ago iirc. PvP operations...I'd definitely try that Or to prevent the enemy from shelling an allied village or something! I'm also one of those people that prefer epicenter mode not be removed, it diversifies gameplay and some of the maps I actually find more enjoyable in epicenter then in domination or standard (like Trident, to me the epicenter version is also the most fun version).

Another thing about the OP premiums... So I gotten 2 friends to start playing WoWS and I div with them kinda regularly. They are enjoying things so far, untill there comes a moment we (both in tier 4 tech tree ships as he has no higher tiered tech tree ships right now) get tier 5 MM, 2 carriers each side (I kid you not, carriers are swarming low and mid tiers and even high tiers carrier games get more common lately), and I see their CVs are seal clubbers And add to that a Kamikaze on the other team and I have to tell him "sorry we won't be able to finish this mission, can't win this one due to sealclunning and broken OP premium ships". So we go play tier 8 (he in his tier 8 premium BB, but I make up for his lack of knowledge so don't worry too much). Enemy team gets a Saipan + Flint div. Loss! Next we get a Kaga and our carrier goes afk...loss! Get rid of these broken ships finally! They are driving people away and ruining their games! What's the point of me bringing in new people into the game just so they get fed up with being thrown into a vat with OP premium sharks just to be the shrimp that feeds their leasure and pleasure? WG won't even make any money on them anymore because they are removed, but a customer that leaves the game for good won't spend anything and these friends will end up playing BF5 instead. Even though I don't play DD anymore (except maybe some coop for the funz), it's kinda painfull to see a friendly DD crawl into the edge of a cap, then suddenly he gets lit and light tracers from 6 different positions make him leave and loose most of his health...and then the next ship pops radar. This is particularly painfull for caps without any cover (in open water with no islands nearby). As a side note, nerfing a non-radar cruiser line at tiers 8 and 9 is not the way to solve the overuse of radar. Well...I do get a LOT of tier 10 matches in my Bismarck and I can safely say that it's a hard ride...and kinda pointless most of the times even though I do have a laugh with it now and again (like my Bismarck double strike from yesterday...lol). But I basically end up spamming he for most of the time because otherwise it's miss miss shatter bounce overpen....and maybe a citadel. But mostly misses. If I get in closer I get focussed like I'm a goose that lays golden eggs I don't mind bow tanking too much as a tactic, it's basically a tradeoff between more firepower and more susceptible to damage and more immune to damage but having less firepower. Maps should provide opportunities for flanking, but to me part of the gameplay is being able to tank and hold a position, preventing it from capture by enemies and clever positioning. Operations do clearly show maps with more landmasses. I'd actually be interested in trying out a map that actually has no really large open spaces at all! Islands everywhere, kinda like shatter but with less open water. And yes I do play lots of BB but I'd still be interested in trying this out and it would diversify gameplay. Say, a counter to Ocean I do acknowledge that creating a new map is time consuming (I've done some basic mapmaking years ago but mostly as a hobby and because it was fun to play those maps), but I do hope that there will be some improvement in this regard somewhere in the not too distant future. (btw WG plz don't remove Ocean ).

If I read this correctly, you're actually putting 2 arguments in front here? BB gameplay in general and OP premiums, or at least this seems to be the case to me? Btw, I don't want WoWS to turn into a brawler yolo fest because I think it's dumb gameplay if it's only that. It requires some level of skill and intelligence to know or feel when the right moment has arrived to start a push. And where to push. Getting the timing perfectly right can change a game around. I do really hope WG stops putting out more OP premiums, some of the tiers are basically dead when it comes to competitive play because of these OP premiums. I'd also prefer all tech tree lines to be balanced. Right now it seems tier 9 tech tree ships are seeing a lot of nerfs (except for Izumo but that's Izumo). Having a game where the best units are all premiums and we're one step closer to WoT. I don't want to play a game like that

I want to point out that on this particular map the left side is far from useless, in domination mode it would otherwise be very close to the border. On maps like Trap and The Atlantic I avoid the bottom left caps like the plague because those caps are too cramped to be able to maneouver. And besides, the whole border humping argument isn't even valid, there's very little border camping going on in this game. Most complaints I do see in ingame chat is made by triggered disgrunted players who died and also say stuff like "Why u no support me! You stooped!" and so on. Some players only want to go brawl and any tactical and often sensible gameplay is scoffed in ingame chat by these brawlernoobs and I really can't take these people seriously. Go ahead, do an actual count on the number of borderliners. This argument is really an overreaction. I get called "COWARD!" and "BORDERLINE HUGGER!" by people even though I'm less then 500m away from a cap. I get called coward with full HP the very moment I am actually at 40% hp (and no heals), don't take these agrivated people too seriously. I get reported because I'm holding position at a strategic spot and moving forward would put me in a torpedo alley. But they don't see it, they only see someone who (to them) is a dirty camper. If people want to complain about other people not brawling enough, then go play WoT it's the perfect game for them Static gameplay =/ braindead. Often it's the smart thing to do and I actually prefer a game where I get to use my brain once in a while. If I wanted an endless quickscope brawling streak without any consideration for tactical positioning or making use of other peoples mistakes (which includes punishing impatient rusher noobs that are apparently doing most of the complaining about 'campers'), kinda like the fastchess that has been mentioned before, I'd go play a shooter or something. Or WoT. If I want to play a (braindead reflex) shooter I'll go play UT tyvm WoWS is so much fun because both tactical positioning and brawling at the right time works! I think catering to brawler only rusher noobs is a mistake, there's already a great game out there for them. They can even use their premium time there! It's not just the radar but also the maps that make the high tiers not as enjoyable to me. Fewer islands (so also less cover for DDs). To me it would help if DDs had a bit more cover on some of the maps. Inpenetrable armor, I suppose you're referring to underwater citadels? I don't really have a problem with the "beyond WW2" bit (I like the what-ifs), but I wouldn't want guided missiles in a game that's basically about naval big guns and contemporary stuff. I do see what you mean with the CV thing but I'd rate them "obsolescent" at best. They are prohibitly expensive though...but then again so is F-35

Give me all your ARP ships! I will gradly take them from your heavy loaden backs!

I went from mostly TYL and sometimes the signals container (usually 1st crate I'd pick signal, all rest TYL) to mostly getting the resources container. I have enough spare signals for now and the economical signals in the resources crates are nice to have (I was kinda low on stock on those). Also I intend to use some of the coal to complete the Dunkirk collection.