tocqueville8

1) Oland with 18 points (with 3 more, I'd go Superintendent, as the problem with the torps is the low number, not the reload imho) Stock turret traverse is 10°/s, a bit on the slow side for a ship with such good concealment. 2) Halland with 21 points - hybrid build I think RPF is kind of mandatory on a slowish, smokeless DD. You can take the torpedo reload module in slot #6, but the increase chance of incapacitations is annoying. You can also take Fearless Brawler instead of torpedo reload and flooding chance, but you're still not a gunboat, not compared to Daring, Marceau and such. 3) Kagero, Yugumo, Shima Once again, you can take Fearless Brawler instead of RPF, but I find the latter is more useful both defensively (need to run away) and offensively (you outspot almost anything: go and find light them up for your team), depending on the respective hp and team support. At least, this is what I run. To be fair, I could never quite make the Halland work

I'm not against it, but the problem is...persistence of vision? aiming permanence...? I don't know how to call it. Basically, guns in this game are more accurate when you're locked onto the target, and if you lose the target, you still get the same accuracy for a bit, but your aim gets yanked upward a bit. You can still do blind shots, but you have to use the minimap dot trick. Furthermore, you lose your lead: the binocular view that was tracking the target (assuming it was moving) stops at once (maybe that's what causes the yank, I dunno). In short, this change would interfere with the lock-on mechanism, which is crucial to get...well, citadel hits instead of a couple of superstructure overpens, let's say. It's a fine idea, but it would require some reworking of one of the basic game mechanics...and we all know what that means

But that's true pretty much every time more than one enemy is shooting at me: - I have to turn to avoid broadsiding a BB, I show broadside to a cruiser and he hits me with AP in the upper belt. - I have to thread the needle between some torps, I take a citadel from someone else. - I'm spotted by a DD at mid-range, a cruiser melts me with HE (say, Cleveland over a Nagato: pens all over the deck). Even 1v1 against a ship of the same class/type, you should be taking *some* damage. It's normal, it's what the game is about. If the CV joins in, well, all the more, I should imagine. I don't know...I do alright with the Kaga (60something in Randoms, 80 or so in Ranked so far), but every Massa is a problem. The idea that one has to be a "complete potato" to have trouble there is...I dunno, it's just not born out in my experience. Tirpitz, Vlad, Bismarck? Not too hard. Massa? Eeeeh... Well...many games are one-sided almost to begin with. Some of those that are not don't have a CV in them, and in some of the remaining ones there might be more pressing concerns (brawling, then capping...or something). Still, I think we've all seen a CV getting caught too close to the frontline by a nice push, and sunk before 4-5 teammates. And besides, plenty of kills in this game are unimportant, not just CV kills. It's not just potatoes and superunicums around: there are plenty of average players that are going to make mistakes, but that doesn't mean they would've been useless otherwise.

I wouldn't say that. 1) A superunicum Massa will shoot stuff around while limiting damage from planes, effectively tying up both the potato Kaga and someone else (say, a cruiser). The exchange is far from 1:1, maybe more like 2:1 or 3:1 in favor of the Massa. 2) Unless the Massa is under repeated, high-caliber HE spam, she should lose AA mounts (to the Kaga's dive bombers, maybe?) more slowly than the Kaga loses planes against her, if at all. 3) BBs run down CVs all the time in the late game. With good maneuvering against torpedo bombers, a Massa might even manage a cap between two attacks, and she'll eventually push the Kaga against the map border. Then it's 3 salvoes at most. 4) Against targets with a fair amount of hp, CVs struggle to do much across the map (squadron turnover takes forever) and they're in big trouble when the enemy gets close. They have to stay close, but not too close. Terrain also can be a problem for rocket planes and torpedo bombers. I wouldn't want to be in a Kagero against a Lexington, but a Massa against a Kaga (an average Kaga, I mean)? Bring it on...

They outplay/out-trade you (sort of) by maneuvering. Kaga against straightlining/stationary, broadside Massa? 3, often 4 torpedo hits, maybe knock out the rudder, trigger a dmgcon for future permafires. Kaga against turning Massa? 0 torps, 1 if unlucky, 2 if under- or oversteered. Otherwise it takes forever to set up a good drop: meanwhile you lose planes to the AA, or just waste time in general. I'm not saying the Kaga is weak (far from it), just that the trade depends more on what the BB does than what the CV does, at least with some of the armaments.

Why don't you just upload a T8 CV replay of yours and let us (and by "us", I probably mean that @El2aZeR fellow...) point to your mistakes so you can improve? At least, the time you complained about people people not capping, you gave us a replay (Vladivostok on "Shards"). Now you're just assuming everyone is having the same problems as you do, but you're too presumtuous to show us. It's becoming clear that you don't want to improve, just to get some attention.

Definitely Napoli: torps and awesome secondaries below 9 km. Carnot gets neither.

I wouldn't take Gun Feeder on a BB unless I've got access to a unique captain (e.g. Halsey, whom I keep on *my* Iowa...) that gets -75% time instead of -50%. The reason is that 50% of 26-30 seconds (depending on the effect of Adrenaline Rush) is often too long to switch to AP and punish a broadside with citadel hits, or to switch to HE and deal better damage to a DD. An exception to this rule might be the République, which generally goes for reload in slot #6, so she has a 21 seconds base reload: waiting 9-10 for the switch is more acceptable. On the other hand, the Iowa should run the accuracy module in slot #6, so that's a 30s base reload. Imho the better alternative is Preventative Maintenance (top right), which reduces the number of times you're going to lose a turret (mostly when a BB shoots AP into them) or engine/steering (mostly when you take a torpedo in the stern). With stronger main turrets, you might opt for Auxiliary Armament Mod 1 in slot #1, making your AA guns (and your secondaries, for what they're worth on the Iowa...) more resistant, which is helpful if a carrier has it in for you.

Divisions BATTLE Co-op Battle NEW Unless I'm much mistaken, the NEW tag means you've unlocked Random battles, which is arguably the main game mode most of the time. Keep in mind, for the first 200 battles or so (forgot the exact number) you'll get protected matchmaking in Randoms, and even later at low tiers there are going to be lots of bots (their names will have colons before and after, like :tourville: or :halsey:) with normal matchmaking as well, as the game struggles to fill two teams of 12 players each, since not many people play low tiers typically. Bots are extremely bad, worse than most (not all) players, so you might be in for a bit of a culture shock once you start dealing with real people. At low tiers, many are going to be just as inexperienced as you, but the good ones will teach you some harsh lessons, unless you're already familiar with the gameplay from YouTube (let's say). Cheers

Sorry but your definition is illogical. The counterplay against a submerged sub is either 1-2 km (DD depth charges), or 4-6 (cruiser ASW planes), or 8-11 (BB ASW planes). It doesn't matter what's the gun range (nevermind the torpedo range) of said DD, cruiser or BB: subs can torp any of them without a chance for retaliation. Showing side, in any other class, means: - showing a bigger target to torpedoes - making citadel hits possible in the first place, or at least much more likely - not being able to go straight at the enemy (when pushing) or straight away from them (when retreating), both very convenient options. It's what makes the JB so comfortable: she doesn't have to go one way and shoot another, she can do the same thing at once (but doesn't have to) The idea that the Halland has armament at 360° is just an absurd way of describing her: the torps, her main weapon, have terrible firing angles. Try Kleber or something like that. It does not, not with curving torpedoes. Subs don't really have to stay submerged, that's the point. They're very hard to spot by airplane, very hard to spot at periscope depth, and they can keep enemies spotted, run away from them at decent speed towards their teammates, all the while launching torps from the rear, no need to slow down to show broadside.

I'm using this one on Druid and Elbing (I think), but only for the AP: I didn't even notice it helps with depth charges damage tbh. Still, if it helps securing a DD kill, all the better.

Well yes, sometimes I *know* I deserve a +1, but I get abuse in chat. I wouldn't say I'm "butthurt" about it, just annoyed at the bad manners displayed. I mean, I'm not "butthurt" when I see dogs**t on the sidewalk, but it is a sign of incivility, of why "we can't have nice things"... It's also disappointing in general to be exposed to stupidity: I'd rather get a +1 when I play well and a -1 when I play poorly than a -1 when I play well but some flamer doesn't get it. I like...I dunno, harmony? Things being as they should be...? Also, I didn't mention CVs and my karma is in the hundreds. I'm not a CV main and I wasn't talking about being reported for playing CV, which is just a tax on the class. I was talking about stuff like this (it's a pretty long read): Cheers

On a completely unrelated note, I could actually get "Cold Waters" for the price of a single T8 premium...

Well, they go so fast they can't necessarily turn 90° in little space, though it does help that you can make them go faster on demand (which is also bulls**t). My main point is that it's much better to have weapons you can launch while going directly where you want to go, or running directly away from a threat, than weapons that require you to wiggle, which slows you down both directly (turning bleeds speed) and indirectly (your route is more roundabout).

Sorry, I disagree. Getting berated in chat by teammates who are too obtuse to understand I'm carrying them makes me nervous and more prone to mistakes. If I also get reported, I'm more likely to be sour in the next game, which does affect my proficiency. I mean, I'm only human... I'm okay with getting reported if I severely misplay; I'm not okay with getting reported when I carry. And depending on my mood, I can get annoyed when I don't get a +1 for carrying, since it means there's no reciprocity from my usual policy of complimenting teammates that do well.

But this understates how good subs are, by a lot. 1) Subs don't have "short range": they outrange their own counterplay, meaning BB ASW planes in the best-case scenario 2) The angle of attack is indeed limited, but it's the best kind of limited: bow and stern. A Halland needs to show her broadsite to launch torps, exposing herself to...well, enemy torps. A sub can launch torps while going nose-in, when pushing someone (like a JB or a Dunkerque) or while running away. No need to wiggle, no need to drift into detection range as she shows some broadside to the enemy. 3) Subs are not slow. I mean, the whole game is sped up, but subs are sped up in proportion to other vessels, as well. 4) You forgot double-pinged torps A) do more damage, which makes no sense, B) ignore torpedo protection, which not only makes no sense, but is also unfair to ships, like the Yamato, that sacrifice some mobility to get more protection in the first place.

That makes about as much sense as "I didn't invent knives, my only crime is I stab people with them" I didn't get the Smolensk, I got the Georgia. I didn't get the FDR, I got the Plymouth. I didn't get the Thunderer, I got the Marceau. I could've gone for the annoying/toxic/troll ship, I went for something else. Likewise, I don't play subs (and never will, unless they rework them completely), I play...anything else, really. There's like 500 ships in the game right now, and only 6 of them are subs: if you play them, it's your choice, not WG's.

Before the free respec expires, I tried a different build with AFT+RPF (to angle against torps), no CE. I pulled a Vampire 2 on the Harugumo (snuck up on him as he farmed my team, then hydro+smoke...) and slowly turned the game around. I can't claim too much credit for this, as the Neustra is really hard to deal with: - I baited the Kitakaze into running towards my torpedo spread - waited out the Groeningen's smoke, then ambushed him with another spread - hunted down the Chung Mu, which is helpless against this thing

I am, I don't care. Acasta has bigger guns and no forward-mounted torps: she's not a torpedoboat destroyer, rather a mature destroyer, if a small one at that. Now, back to subs...

Apparently that button can only be used once, so there's a chance I've tried some questionable builds in the meantime and I'd have to check all my captains one by one to make sure

Only 88 mm guns and torpedo tubes just behind the fore castle, ready to launch with a very aggressive attitude? Sounds torpedo-boaty to me, no matter the displacement. Anyway, this is a tangent from the discussion about subs.

That's a lot of words to say that it's alright to call them "torpedo boats"

How about the V-25 and G-101? Plus, let's be honest, it's just a useful term to distinguish a Shima from a Udaloi, even though they have the same number of guns and the same number of torps.

What exactly is the "team play" against subs? Even if I know exactly where the sub is, as a DD captain I'd have to go and sit on his face to drop depth charges. As a cruiser captain, my airstrikes only reach out to 6 km, and that's at T10. Meanwhile, the subs can get a Dev Strike on me from 12 km. There's better counterplay against subs in Cold War-era games like "Cold Waters"...

Well, yes, I do drop if I have a decent idea of where the sub is. I might get 1-2 hits, better than nothing. But remember: ASW planes take a while to reload, something like 60s for the first strike and ANOTHER 60s for both. You can't just spam them around like a DD trying to blind-fire the enemy DD in a smoke. What if the sub emerges 20s later, and both your drops are on cooldown? Incidentally, why does the reload even work like that? Imagine if a Shima had to wait a total of 6 minutes to reload all 3 torpedo launchers...