tocqueville8

It IS complex, as a good game should be: - pushing early allows to grab space for crossfires and to support the DDs - hanging back allows to preserve points and hp for late-game trades Even after thousands of battles in BBs, I still have plenty of games where I get too close too soon, and I only manage to use 1-2 heals, or where I hang too far back and only *need* to use 1-2 heals

The enemy team was pushing so fast they experienced length contraction along the direction of motion What I mean is, please fix the aspect ratio

Yeah I find it odd that such a good player is now RenamedUser_XYZ and has private stats. I mean...he's a Youtuber, not a CIA operative...

Are you trying to talk to a player on a different server? You need the "shining" to do that...

It's a perfectly viable line, and I don't blame you for aiming at the Bismarck (she was my first Tier 8 ship, as well). The current meta has a lot of DDs and submarines, sometimes up to 6 of them combined. Plus Pan Asian cruisers with their sneaky deep-water torpedoes. As a result, a line that has hydroacoustic search has some advantages. As a beginner, I just wouldn't go all-in with the secondaries, which are the line's distinctive feature: - take the accuracy module in slot #3 (it's cheap enough to swap it for secondaries later, if you so fancy) - your first 10-14 captain points should go towards survivability, awareness and main guns - eventually you can spend some on improving the secondaries, or double down on survivability and awareness. By then the meta might've changed, anyway

That's almost 3x the xp of the next guy I think you were also robbed of a Dev Strike against the Fuso on B. I really should play my Monaghan more often...

Weird way to flex a Kraken...

That's a pretty good idea, though it could still be a bit OP depending on the matchmaker, especially in the late game. Still, I guess it could always be balanced in testing by adjusting the sub's max speed...

But what if the issue isn't being hydroed (that's what you mean by "passive sonar", right?), but rather with using submersion to avoid detection by airplane, radar or just RPF? What's the tradeoff then, what keeps subs from going 10 minutes at full speed underwater then?

My main gripes are with: 1) the durability of subs 2) the maximum time they can continuously spend underwater (which encourages disruptive, quasi-griefing plays like submerging before the caps and teleporting to the enemy CV or backline BBs) 3) the minimum time they can spend underwater, or on the surface. Your suggestions are fine regarding #1 and #3, but I'm perplexed by the idea of increasing the battery to 10 minutes. And I'm not sure I understand this one. 10 minutes at 30 kts is 5 minutes at 15 kts? Isn't it the other way around? I'm confused... Which distance, more or less, should a T10 sub be able to travel while continuously underwater? What's the tradeoff between submarsion time and submersion speed, if any? Thanks.

I believe I made similar suggestions on the other thread, so that's all fine by me. I made 11 in total, though some were more about the introduction of subs than their mechanics. I think the delay before submerging again, and possibly a delay for the sub in spotting around when emerging, are a great idea to limit shotgunning, which is very annoying. As for some of your other points, I think the detection function is alredy too complicated to make it also depend on the sub's speed. I mean, one could say of the Speed Boost consumable that if you don't use it by going at full speed all the time, it should last longer. Or that a smokescreen should dissipate more slowly if you lay all the puffs in the same place, standing still. It's reasonable, but also more complicated. My point is that this is already a very complex game with a mostly casual userbase, so I'd keep it simple. In this respect, the consumable system was a very good idea: DDs have N smokes, with X activation time, Y dissipation time, Z cooldown. Those numbers can be buffed a bit, but the point is that once you use a charge, you live with it, and you might be wasting it. Likewise, subs should have to make a decision on when to submerge, and live with it for a minute or two. I guess I'm not being very helpful with these generic responses to your detailed post, so I'll stop right here

It's not that I dislike submarines, it's that getting Dev Struck or focused on when in a bad position is the fate of all other classes in the game. The last time a Veneto showed broadside to my North Carolina under 8 km, she got Dev Struck. Ditto the second-to-last time. DDs that sit broadside in the cap get Dev Struck by torps, and those that overextend get shot to bits by 4-5 ships combined. Cruisers can get citadeled through the nose (happened to me recently in the Sejong vs an Incomparable: I was reasonably far and wiggling, but he got me ). Unless they run out of batteries or they get torped by other subs (but with a max of 2 per team, their encounters are fairly rare), subs are too hard to sink quickly imho.

Don't you get motion sickness when you sail around the middle?

Maybe it does, I haven't played DDs recently. I'm just saying how I think hydro, radar and RPF should work with subs, for future reference.

My suggestions: 1) Submersion should be a consumable, with duration, cooldown and number of charges similar to DD smoke. Subs shouldn't be able to stay on the surface until the cap, go down, teleport in your spawn 4 minutes later like the Nautilus sailing under the North Pole, shotgun a BB in the face, submerge again, shotgun the CV. The parameters should be different on each sub line and improvable with modules, skills and flags, but subs shouldn't be able to go 4 straight minutes underwater. And if you submerge, you have to stay down for 60-90 seconds or whatever: you can't just pop in and out like a dolphin! The beauty of consumables is that you can waste a charge! Imagine how broken radar or smoke would be, otherwise. Or if you could stack 3 charges of TRB in a row... 2) Torpedo reload should be slower, even if it means increasing the damage per unit to keep them competitive. At high tiers, BB DmgCon has a 80 sec cooldown (on most lines) compared to a typical 80-120 sec DD torpedo reload. That's reasonable. With subs, the torps reload every 40 sec. I know subs can't shoot you for permafires after a flooding, but sometimes you've got to dmgcon the bloody ping. 3) ASW planes should do more damage. 2 sets of bombs on a sub shouldn't do just 3-4k dmg. DDs and cruisers get Dev Struck all the time, BBs also if they run into torps or during brawls, and sometimes even CVs if they park broadside to a sniper. Subs, for the most part, only get Dev Struck by other subs, or if they emerge in the middle of the enemy team. That's just too foolproof imho. I'd be ok with some subs having a heal, to partially compensate. 4) Give some ASW planes to all ships, even those with depth charges. And even CVs. 5) Equalize the range of ASW planes at a given tier, give or take 1 km. If the Ohio is overperforming (she isn't for me ), balance her some other way, but those 6 km planes are just insulting. It's like giving a Tier 10 BB 55,000 hp. 6) Subs should be slower when underwater. Not as slow as in real life, but slower than they are now. 7) Torpedo launches shouldn't give a warning, but when subs ping I should see their location for a few seconds. I mean, it's active sonar, isn't it? I should see the location then, enough to aim the ASW planes. They can dodge them like I (try to) dodge BBs salvos when playing cruisers. 8) Radar should spot subs at periscope depth. Hydro should spot them at operating depth within the "ship detectability radius", and at max depth as well, though only nearer. RPF should work on subs at periscope depth. 9) There should be a soft limit of max 4 DDs or subs per team, a hard limit at 5. I've had games with 2 subs, 4 DDs, 1 CV per team, and they were garbage. 10) Next time you add subs and superships, especially supercarriers, have the f*****g courtesy of giving us a free captain respec. 11) Stop testing stuff in Randoms or Ranked. It was toxic when you did it with Dutch airstrikes (triple unicum Gouden Leeuw divs going about...), it was toxic in Ranked and it's toxic now in Randoms. Get a grip. Maybe some of these suggestions are already included in the current iteration of subs, but I'm writing them in case they change things in the future.

My clan is good people

That's just bad advice imho. 1) Low tiers are derpy and brawly and don't really "give you a feel for the game". 2) Branching into different classes allows you to get a holistic experience of the game, to understand how to play and how to play against most ships. If you "focus on BB", you might just not understand DD gameplay (what strategy they follow, what tradeoffs they're subjected to...) until much later on. Likewise, there are people who don't even bother maneuvering against CVs because "if they want to sink you, they'll sink you", and their experience in the class is something like 4 games in the Langley, with red PR. My recommendation is the opposite: at first, pick only 1-2 lines for each ship class. For example: IJN BBs French cruisers soviet DDs for gunboating (you'll pick a sub-branch later) IJN DDs for torpedoboating USN CVs (they're the most generic) Imho, if you're grinding the Konig, playing the New York and Pyotr Veliky at the same time is just redundant, and it's going to feel like your progress is slower than necessary. I'd rather be playing the Mutsuki, Furutaka or Podvoisky and have a more diverse experience. The confusion comes from playing lots of fairly similar ships, not from playing different classes altogether.

Frankly I like premiums that are different from the tech tree line. These torps are on the wings like those of the Sherman, right? I like the idea that you can play it either as a cap contester (smoke+hydro) or as an open-water harasser (repair + Def AA) However, at only 34 knots she would need a speed boost to fulfill the second role, imho. Considering she gets worse DPM and worse hp than the Sherman, I think it would be okay.

IFHE is more useful on the Pommern than on the Kurfurst: - on the Pommern, it makes the 105s pen 32 mm, which is the minimum high-tier BB plating, with very few exceptions (Slava, Champagne...) - on the Kurfurst, it makes the 128s pen 40 mm, meaning you'll go past the 38 mm of USN BB deck plating. Imho that's not enough to justify the expense and the loss of fires For 1 point, I always consider Preventative Maintenance, for two reasons: 1) when you brawl, you want to save your dmgcon for floodings and/or double fires: if you can reduce the odds of having to repair your engine or steering, which you're more likely to lose than a sniper BB because you're more likely to take a torpedo, then go for it 2) with such good secondaries, as well as higher odds to be focused by a CV as you push, you might want to take the 100% more hp to secondaries/AA in module slot #1, but that leaves your main battery more susceptible to incapacitations, so again PM helps Just don't, for two reasons: 1) you need the Concealment Module to get closer to the islands without losing too much hp in the process. 2) Torpedo Lookout + Vigilance allows you to automatically spot torps at 1.8*1.25 = 2.25 km. That's great, but with hydro on you'll spot them at 4 km anyway, so both perks would be wasted, other than the (minor) reduction to torpedo damage, which iirc doesn't work if you take a torp on the bow (it's not covered by the torpedo belt). Just take the coal module for +20% longer hydro in slot #2, and possibly the flag. The 20% rudder module is also an option, as it allows you to dodge torps better. If you wanted to go Dmg Con Mod 2 instead, well, just buy some flags. The thing with brawlers is that, unlike a well-played sniper, they can't disengage at will, and sometimes their games are just very short (they get focused, they get torped unexpectedly, etc.). That means that: 1) You might not get to use more than 2-3 heals, and certainly not 5 unless you're veeeery careful in the first half of the game. Torpedo damage is also largely unhealable, so again 5 heals are a bit too much for a ship that's going to play fairly close to DDs. 2) You might not take a whole lot of potential damage. Exchanging long-range salvoes and avoiding torps someone spotted 8 km ahead of you gives you a lot of potential damage for little risk, while duking it out with an Ohio or a Schlieffen does not: either one of you is going to be dead fairly soon, probably. That makes ERE and IRPR rather unattractive, imho. I'd go for Fire Prevention, which limits the damage you take during brawls and allows you to save your DmgCon, and Concealment Expert. Alternatively, you can drop one and take three 2-point skills: probably Vigilance, Grease the Gears (even if you don't go for reload in slot #6, the stock traverse on the GK is rather slow at 40s for 180°) and Priority Target, which also helps against torps when your hydro is off. Again, if you're worried about fires and floodings, you can just buy some flags to reduce their duration and/or increase your heals. But there's no flag that reduces your concealment! Other than that, I don't think I'd get the GK for coal as my 1st Tier 10 if I already had the Pommern, but you do you.

*Checks calendar* Stun bombs are here to stay

Soviet BBs can be a lot of fun if you like an aggressive playstyle: I'd go for that line first. Then again, an aggressive playstyle is more vulnerable to CVs and subs, so your mileage may vary.

Because it's a cap contester, and around caps, at high tiers at least, you often find nose-in ship, especially those with AB-X turrets, like Iowa, Yamato, Stalingrad and Des Moines. With single-fire torps you might land 5-6 hits on a nose-in ship that didn't see it coming. It's not common, but it's possible.

Except to take a full Harugumo spread you need to be sailing broadside to him, i.e. it's your fault. And the reload is effectively 80-90s (2 with sets, with the TRB, every 160-170 sec) A sub can just stalk you launching torps every 40 sec. while pinging away.

I think an issue is that torpedoboat captains often forget they have guns, while gunboats will still use torps when it makes sense. No matter how good they are, torps are fairly situational, and a DD should be doing a lot of stuff without them.

Just had this heartbreak loss. The enemy sub participated in the fight on B, pinged me, pinged my teammates, then kept the cap contested. I landed some depth charges/incapacitations on him 3 times, but hardly did any damage to him. He was still there, right below us, with battery to spare, as we narrowly lost on points with all caps in our control. Now, I'm fine with someone winning on points just by running toward the edge of the map (but then he wouldn't be pinging, torping and contesting), and I'm fine with a DD being able to hide in smoke for like a minute, until you charge him or he runs away. But when you're right on top of a sub for several minutes at the end of the match, he shouldn't just be able to stay submerged at will. Like, what are we supposed to do about it? Again, the guy didn't run away, beyond our reach: he was right there, but all we could do was to spam around ASW planes that do pathetic damage anyway. Once again: submerging should be a consumable, with a certain duration, a certain cooldown and a certain number of charges subs should be stealthy, but fragile: they should NOT require 10-15 depth charges to sink. Either that, or planes should carry considerably more.