Sub_Human

The followup detailed guide and FAQ

DD-main: check Elitist: probably, then again most of us here in the forums are to a degree. I was being sarcastis earlier. Will remember to put a /s after such a statement in the future. What I was reacting to and calling a well thought out idea /s. Was that you want to nerf the weakest class (hp, damage, armor) because that class is being played less then the other surface classes. And since spotting is muy importante (but not rewarded enough) and most other classes are highly alergic to caps. Your team suffers when those ships are played by potatoes that die early. My response was that you might as well nerf the other ships to as we all suffer when our teammates play poorly and die. I will however take you up on your challenge with other classes. I already own just about every silver cruiser in the game as well as the Smolensk. The Colbert should also be mine in a week or two. As I own them, I might as well learn to play them. Now have a good one and I'll see you on the high seas.

If those classes have less influence. It should be easy to check. What WR can the best players squese out of them. If its lower then DD WR then you could argue that you are right. In that case I would probably just argue that the less popular class gets higher influence. Look at CVs. In a game of 12vs12 if a class only has 1 participant then the better CV-player will be able to have a disproportional influence. If the average battle only has 2 DDs on each side then they will have a higher influence then they would if there were 4. Its just logic.

You just crack me up. DDs are harder to play now then 3 years ago. And on higher tiers it gets exponentially harder. Its not impossible in any way though. But crap players exist in every class, your extremly well thought out idea about limiting the influence on DDs should really be put into use on the more popular classes. Where more bad players reside, like BBs and Cruisers. So that we that want to play can ignore them. Instead you get stronger and stronger ships put into battle. BBs get cruiser accuracy and cruisers get DD RoF with 16 guns. The relative nerfs you were talking about earlier AP-pen and consealment really did not make to much difference on t8+. The consealment "buff" was probably more in favor of cruisers, as BBs lost more. Ignoring Smolensk Lol. If anything has the power of changing the way you aproach a game, a cap etc in a DD its that thing. It can reliably hit you over range, as well as desimate you in seconds. Sure you can hide behind an Island. What is funny is that then you are not spotting, bad DD go spot. You will never get anyone to play a class of spotters that cater to the rest without dealing damage. Not in a game where DaMaGe is close to everything.

Its funny how DDs get the credit for everything. In my view the general level of play has dropped over the PR-grind. All classes are being played worse then normaly. My main frustration usually comes from seeing my team evaporate behind me. They just sort of melt away... but teams can be carried, often atleast. I had a look at my stats just prior to writing here and Im still holding my head over the 60% line the last week. I would however rather be above 70% like it was during most of autum. But please dont put this on DDs. People cant hit a barn from the inside. And those that can quickly desimate the enemy as most cant angle either.

On Z52 you could increase DPM and make the turning circle smaller (Or 1/4 pen ). Gearing needs YY draft and a new model. On YY they should revert the DPM changes and remove the radar option (Its what made it broken to begin with). Shima needs rudder shift and better turning circle, its already fast and has a good profile. I agree with you that Shimas popularity makes changing it a bit iffy. I do however feel that Khaba could use some of his rudder back as well as 8-10km torps. (I know that the numbers are still good, but thats because good players still like him and play him). About Kleber... I think its to early to nerf, let some more of the potatoes get her. Daring could use better consealment, maybe even lower profile, its very strong but a 19p commander is a must. It also eats damage like there is no tomorrow. Harougumo is not really a DD, it does what it does well enough. I would like better turning circle though. Being outturned by Conq and Thunderer is strange to say the least. Kitakaze is better in every way except raw DPM and HP, disregarding full pens. Grozovoi is probably fine as he is. Very strong compared to other DDs as it can do it all. Still rudder shift and turning circle are crap. I would rather have seen that then WGs solution of giving him all the consumables.

But is there really anything that speaks against increasing the power level of t10 DDs a bit. In my view t9 DDs are just as good in a t10 game. Most people would agree that boats as Gearing or YY are really just sidegrades to their Fletcher predecessors. Im not really talking about going the Harougumo route, its in fact my least played t10 DD. Why? Because it doesnt play very well, its slow ,clumpsy and huge. Increase survivability by stealth, speed, nimbleness possibly by adding heal (All new lines seem to get heal anyway as I have pointed our before, not the RM but because saturation). Make them be able to disengage, lick their wounds and come back to the fight.

You are completely right about their main challenge though. Disengageing will be tough as their base speed is quite low.

Didnt they get speed-boost? I think they did. They are starting to look interesting though, that much is certain.

I think it is what it is. You will end up in situations where you have to deal with other ships one on one. You can do it by smarts and ambushes etc. The thing about higher tiers is that ships get higher accuracy over range and more firepower. That together with more vision-tools like radar/hydro and cv-spotting make t10 play more challenging for t10 DDs. All ships also get faster witch closes torpedo windows faster. IFHE also loses its usefulnes since deck-armor and plating increases to a point where DDs (except the duckies) cant follow. The only ship higher tier DDs get better at fighting is other DDs, especially lower tier ones. Im not saying that DDs dont win games. They do that very well unless there is a decent CV-player on the red team. I do however still feel that people overreact to a decent DD being introduced. The Kleber is a good ship and had the tools to ambush or harass at range. Now it will only harass at range.

Unpopular opinion here: Maybe its the other DDs that need buffing at t10. There are no really good DDs at that tier (Khaba, YY and now Kleber used to be), not compared to the CVs, BBs and cruisers. Look at the stats for WR in 1vs1 t8. Its not like DDs shine when the are put against other ships. And t8 DDs are stronger tier for tier then t10. Do a 1vs1 in t10 ;) I know DDs have other strenghts then pure firepower and HP. Still they are not in the slightest overpowerd at higher tiers compared to other classes. EDIT: Grozovoi is still good.

You guys are so right. But will WG see it that way?

Torpitzes shooting torps at ships 14km away from them and kiting away. Its not even uncommon.

I feel you and keep asking myself what can be improved. I find myself raging in ways I have never experienced before. In my case playing a lot less would improve everything... I just have to finish directive 4... A lot of the people that make me wonder about the future of humanity are probably just grinding directives to. Playing to do other things then winning (tanking, setting fires etc.) or playing ships they are not used to (BB mains playing DDs for torp-hits or tanking in cruisers etc). I used to think that playing in mid tiers gave some protection against ROFL-stomps. Potatoes potatoing in less powerful and accurate boats should still survive for a while. Right... After today I scrapped that notion. Never ever tell me that its just DDs that die early, its everyone. I have even had CVs dying first in the game 3 minutes in. People will find a way.

I feel like the german DDs are in a bad spot at the moment. Im not the only one to point out that the z52 could use some love. But something that has been bothering me for a long time is that german 150mm guns have 1/4 penetration instead of the normal 1/6, both main guns and secondaries, but not on DDs... for whatever reason. I think its time to fix this. It would give the german t6 (Gaede) and t8 (z23) DDs a much needed buff. The z39 does not need any buffs but its RoF is so bad anyway that better pen probably won't matter to much. And while we are at it the 150mm DD guns could also get some range since they dont get any benefits from AFT. And 10.8km on a 150mm t8 gun is questionable. You could probably even buff the 128mm guns on the DDs to 1/4 he pen without making them OP in any way. Their HE damage of 1500 is very low. Sure the AP damage is great but they can only pen flat broadsides so its useless compared to Russian DD AP and dont even mention the French. Thoughts?

True we see this in the Duck sisters, no one settles for the 25mm pen that is actually really good. But unlike them the Germans lack DPM. When I started this thread I was mainly thinking of the 150mm guns. They lack AP-pen, demand EM to lube their rusted shut turrets and have very low range and poor reload time. They won't become contenders with the queens of smoke-farming BBs even with 1/4 pen. You would have to take pot shots at points where you can break line of sight, but it would give them a tool to take down wounded larger ships, while not making them better at fighting DDs. There are enough DD hunters out there as is. When it comes to fighting cruisers I would rather have a Russian or French DD with IFHE. But a less lazy buff would be to buff the AP-pen instead making the 150mm DDs true ambush predators.

I feel a little less bad now that I know I helped to keep DD numbers up a little even with my modest 77%. Atleast I had 100% WR in the Asashio

Funnily enough I feel that is the way all gunboats behave nowadays with IFHE. You cant pen BBs above t7 (duck-sisters excluded). But fighting CA/CLs get a lot easier. With the IFHE skill 128s as well as 150s turn into effective anti cruiser weapons. The quarter pen would make them hurt BBs as well. The french AP at t8+ is also basicly a tool vs Cruisers. It cant really hurt BBs where AP with lower pen cant do the same. Buffing other aspects would be general buffs, and would likely be buffs primarily vs DDs. Maybe not torp Alpha but heal, HP, hydro, traverse, torp reload, gun-reload, HE Alpha, agility.

But with the low HE damage they also get the 1/4 pen, right? That would still mean that the german 128mm guns get screwed with their 1500 HE Alpha. If Im not mistaking the US 127mm have 1800. The Russian 130mm have 1900. (Grozovoi being the exception with 1800 but higher AP pen). The French 139mm have 2000. The IJN 127mm have 2150. The IJN 100mm have 1200, but 25mm pen and high ROF. I dont know the values of UK 120mm or 114mm.

Thanks, atleast I got an explanation to the low pen. Do Mainz/Nurnberg really only have 1700 alpha on their 150mm HE? I do agree that better AP pen would be interesting to try. It would be more demanding to use then high pen HE, but rewarding for those that can.

That makes sense now that you say it. Its still not very good though making its use very limited except farming BBs in the front or butt at very close range. But sure those 4000 salvos vs unsaturated parts are nice when you can get them.

Im with you on the part where it wont really matter that much if the HE pen is buffed. Then again why should the same caliber gun have vastly different values depending on on what ship its placed on?

Sorry messed up the quoting on my phone :) First part: The z23 has something like 3.9km smoke-fireing detection. Its clumpsy as hell so as long as its torps are on reload or you are sure its front/back is towards you you can rush it down with ease. It can basicly only get one shot of before you spot it. Its smoke is also very short lived so waiting it out is not a big thing. Second part: Its not the angles that are the problem, but rather the lack of penetration on the AP. Atleast comparing the 128mm guns to Russian 130mm or French 139mm on t8-t10. Playing Russian or French DDs you can citadel cruisers at relatively safe ranges, Kiev being the exception. The French can wreck cruisers at 12-13km.

Flamu would agree ;) Have a look at his vid where 12x GK eats 12x Kremlin and then 12x Yamato. Edit: ignore me I read BBs