ForlornSailor

Just to make it perfectly clear once more. I think its a rather specific thing, that doesnt happened that often but when it happens, its so stupid, that... it hits you like a train - We are not talking about the smoke detectability range. To pick an example: Neptune. 6,4 km. It exists. When im sitting in my smoke, fireing, I will be spotted if enemy is <6,4 km to me. Not a problem. Not point of the discussion. - When I drive around with my Neptune, never shooting. I will be detected <10,1 km. Lets say I am detected, im 8 km away from the enemy. I smoke. LoS breaks. Im undetected. - When I drive around with my Neptune, never shooting. I will be detected <10,1 km. Lets say I am detected, im 4 km away from the enemy. I smoke. LoS breaks. Im undetected. - I drive around shooting with my Neptune at a Cruiser @ 12km. no smoke. Im detected. I kill him. No other ship is in LoS. Im undetected. I smoke up. I dont shot. Another ship comes around the corner at 8 km. I stay undetected. - I drive around shooting with my Neptune at a Cruiser @ 12km. no smoke. Im detected. I kill him. No other ship is in LoS. Im undetected. I smoke up. I dont shot. Another ship comes around the corner at 6 km. Im detected. So, a dead ship, that can be dead for 1 to 19,9 sec is spotting me. I have a tendence to think, that the devs havent thought about this part of the smokechange when implementing it. Thus its wrong. I still stay - the smoke detectability should only kick in once I shoot from smoke. Smoke should always overwrite current spotting mechanism, as long as I havent fired from it ot through it. There are ppl that want to nerf smoke, so that you never can fire from it aka defensiv smoke. Right now, in the situation I discribe above smoke it not even a defensiv tool. The game denies it with absolutly no logic.

Yes, there is a no. Because the 2 / 3 km before wasnt smoke dependent. It had nothing to do with smoke. It was proximity spotting, that worked through everything and still does (islands come to mind...) Quote 1 thing I said thats wrong. You cant. Instead you just claim I say something wrong. Doesnt make it the reality, even if you wish so hard. On the second thought: dont start quoting. We have seen you dont know the basic rules of quoting - like in "Im allowed to write anything I want into the quotationmarks"

If it only would be that easy, we would see Winrates covering the full span from pretty much 99% to 1%. But the reality is, that 95% of the players are within 60% to 40%. Thats not coincidence but the direct result of the very core mechanics of this game. And also the reason, why threads like this one exist. Could there be any? What kind of evidence would you accept? there are playerstats from ppl that have like >5.000 games that dont have an avarage damage of 20.000 while playing high tier. That should count as "bad & not learning" i guess? You could start and spent a lot of time compiling all players stats to draw conclusions, then you might have statistical evidence proving one or the other. I doubt that anyone is really willing to go through this tho. I however share this feeling too and would love to see some numbers myself.

Yes and no. For RN CLs, this will be 5,4~6,4 km. Thats the entire problem. Detection hasnt really worked that way always, cuz before it was that 2km proxy / 3km with accuisition module for all ships. Missed the point again. Range is the point here. Yep. and your judgement doesnt have anything to do with our recent encounter in another thread. If you would have that conversation with that other guy here, you´d accuse him right now ;) But keep on spamming.

Yea. Either lying, not able to comprehend or *edited*. And then, after you give up talking to a brick, claming "victory". If you think, thats how you use a forum... Congratz, you made my ignore list. Not many have achieved this.

Are you capable of reading...? Or are you trolling... I really start to think at this moment. I didnt shoot the Missouri. I didnt shoot the Charles Martel. I didnt shoot the Bismarck.... Yet you talk about defensive smoke works... and Detection in smoke hasnt changed... Dude you dont even have the facts of spotting right... Well when you react on things that I "demand" ... can I demand you to... *edited*

Wouldnt it be cool, if we could have the clan logo visible on the ships? or as a flag maybe? I know this from atleast one other game - World in Conflict - where the logo was visible on all vehicles.

You dont get it, do you? After all the talk, you still didnt get the point - I DID NOT SHOOT. And the discussion is in fact about this EXACT part of the mechanic. See? The OP gave the direction of whats this topic about - not you! You missed the point and are telling everyone - THEY missed the point. After 5 hours I conclude: original assumption confirmed.

Yes I do. Because you are missing the original point *argh*. Lets try it from another point of view. Some ppl argue, that smoke should be a completly defensiv mechanism, right? Yet, it even denied me that twice. And to make it even clearer, im not arguing that the 20 sec gunbloom doesnt exist when someone sees you shooting - matter of fact, in my video posted, you can see this effect with the very next salvo! Pretty much why I used that example - maybe I should have included it with timestamps but I thought we are clear on this one. Now, you could even argue about the logic behind this 2 vs 20 sec gunbloom when not it smoke - but I dont want to go that far. What im saying - from the start btw, aswell as the OP - is, that Smoke should break and override all detection right away (expect Hydro and Radar... in case some smartguy tries to hijack the discussion with that...). Im trying to use it as a defensive tool, but the game doesnt allow me to. Im not shooting my guns at that spefic target, matter of fact, I never did, but still he detects me cuz I had LoS with a now dead ship. Nothing else did I say back then and I still stand on that - This - is - wrong.

You should have gone to the trainingroom testing it. Now I have to take you to school. 04:39 - ingame time - I shoot my guns. Im behind Island. gunbloom & detectionrange are at 16.1 km 04:37 - Detection range has dropped down again. 11,6km. After 2 secs. not 20 seconds.

I can not help you if you do not understand the point. It was very clear in the opening post, it was very clear in my example. I quoted it again, you missed it 3times obviously, since you keep talking about smoke detection in general. Claming, that somebody else cant express himself, wont make your position any stronger - its still you, thats not on top of this specific topic. There are other threads, where ppl complain about smoke detectability in general, maybe you should go there...? So since most ppl are dumb, lets take the last bits of available teamplay away from the intelligent ppl. Your idea comes through here quite strong. Thanks, but no thanks. Erm. First, Ill try to make it clearer: Ive have never shot my gun while beeing in LoS of the Charles Martel & Missouri in the Neptune example and I have never shot my gun while in LoS with the Bismarck in my Fiji example. Then, lets change the example. When undetected and shooting your guns, your gunbloom doesnt stay full for 20 sec (im not sure if you knew this). So, we change this example of Neptune & Missouri + Martel this way: either of them would have come 1 or 2 secs later around the corner, when my gunbloom has already cleared - which is not 20 sec after I killed the Yamato - then I would have been undetected. But I wasnt. Id even like to check, how long it took from that moment, to get me out of detection, maybe its even that buggy, that it stats again with 20 sec. I dont think tho that I can check from my replay, cuz I had to bail from my smoke, thx to that wrong mechanic. So just to conclude - That is not true. Try it out in the trainingroom. I can now see, why you think, its working as intended. Its not.

Lets go then. We still havent heard your logic how this is tho.

Yep. unplayable. I hate that ship. Try again. Ill help you out a bit - this specific post was about, how the new smoke mechanic affects teamplay and the logic behind a specific situation - this beeing, when you shoot your guns before you enter the smoke and it still leaves you detected. Both of them I agreed and brought up examples, that showed, what specific part of the smoke change is wrong imo. And nobody exept favus mentioned an Edinburgh before you so...Try again - again.

This example is so far from the reality, I dont know where to start. Also, you missed the point of this topic completly. Again, someone that only read the headline and EDIT. Incredible.

Did you read beyond the title of this topic?

Erm... ruin HIS OWN day you wanted to say....

Hard to say, cuz we dont know what style of play you prefer :) In general, there are a lof of good answers already. Hindenburg is a very strong T10 and very different to Minotaur. The grind to Moskva is nice, but Moskva itself... not so much anymore. From the BB-lines I´d prefer Montana. All the high tier BBs are keepers in my book, where as IJN f.e. has Izumo and Yamato, which have lost a lot of their strenghts imo.

L O L Right. How many times did you use radar to make that assessment? 0 I see from your stats. Well done. If you use your radar, everyone knows where you are. As a Radar cruiser, you are already public enemy No1 and the radar cruisers are the more sqiushy ones anyway, so that makes them even more of a target. And I cant count the times, Ive traded 1-1 with a DD in my RU CAs using Radar. Also - using radar from behind Island is situational, not possible on every map and can be avoided so easy. Why do you go B on Northern Lights when there is a Radar Cruiser and you havent spotted him? Those DDs can sink in minute 1 for all I care. They most likely will sink in minute 3 anyway, once they pushed through the cap playing gunboat with their IJN DD against a BB. That I agree on. But it might not be easy to take into account, also, cuz several ships may or may not be equiped with Radar (CN CLs T8+, Chapa, if even seen US CA with plane).

Overall, before it was introduced, I thought its gonna be worse. It turned out to be manageble most of the time - usualy due to the fact, that most random players are till afraid of a smokepuff. 2 things are bad tho - First it killed the way I used to play my Mid-tier US DDs completly. I dont even touch them anymore cuz I dont know whats my role anymore. I cant smoke up my team, I cant torp enemys cuz of low range. I refuse to sit in my own smoke puffing minimal damage HE on 10 km BBs. I can play RN CLs if I want that kind of gameplay and its 10x more efficient. Leander can contest caps like a DD most of the times anyway. - Second. Now, there is something completly wrong, it effed me twice already. First time Fiji. Im next to an island. Behind the Island is a Bismarck, in my back some cruiser. I stay behind the island to engage the cruiser, gunfight in the open, our team kills him. My status goes from detected to undetected - logic, cuz nothing spots me. Now I accelarate around the island, slow down & smoke right away. That Bismarck is like ~3,5 km away from me. Ofc he briefly spots me but - it stays even after im covered from my smoke. Gunbloom on minimap shows still full. So obviously, im still in the 20 sec from shooting the long dead cruiser, from a position, that Bismarck NEVER had a LoS to spot me. But he does. It again happened today. Northern Lights, im with my Neptune between B/C. Enemys push C with Missouri - Yamato - Charles Martel. The Yamato carelessly goes full speed through, he is like 6 km away from me. So there is no need to smoke, cuz I would be detected anway. I torp him, shoot him - he goes down. Missouri & Charles Martelstill behind Island -but pushing around right in that moment. I get undetected. So I smoke to turn in my smoke and stop their push with torps. What happens, once the come around the corner? Yep, I get detected on someting like 5,5 km. Again, the smoke detection mechanic from the long dead Yamato obviously allows the Missouri and Charles Martel to spot me. This - is - wrong!

If that would be possible, we would need to make AA-Guns invulnerable to HE-shells. Then im up for it - if you want to get rid of AA to strike a ship, use fighters for the job. It would also lower the impact of Divisions with CVs. For that you would need to add more squads I guess, or what would be your idea? Now, I personally always argue, that playing a CV isnt rocket science. But when you add more squads and lower the dmg-output of each squad, you will eventually make the CV-gameplay more complicated and prone to mistakes. This goes for all Tiers, since ppl on lower tiers need to learn and thus often cant handle the number of squads from high tier CVs. Its painfully obvious when someone jumps into a Enterprise as his first CV... Im sorry but I have to rule in favor of @El2aZeR here. Im pretty sure you have been in quite a few matches with a CV, where the CV was incapable of teamplay. Which leads usualy to curses in the chat like "finaly spot the DD in B, CV!" or "why didnt you spot the torpedos CV omg". A CV, doing this, doesnt do this for himself to get points, damage or anything of that kind - its a teamplay mechanic. What he gets out of it - Wins. Or not, if his team cant benefit from the advantage he is giving them! There are actually CVs out there, that get decent damage numbers but hardly get over 50% WR. You even find examples of them here in the forums, once in a while, complaining, why they dont win more. If the game would actually reward Teamplay-mechanics properly (not only for CVs, this goes for all classes: BB - tanking / DD - spotting / CA - Hydro + spotting), it would seperate the good CVs from the awesome CVs not only by Winrate, but also by XP / Credits. Another thing about playing DD, when there is a CV around. Yes, it can suck at times. I had a game where I was perma spotted, all my torps were spotted and I cursed the CV. But only looking at this is too easy. Why didnt you teams CV help you? Why didnt you teams ships help you with AA? Why didnt you look for help from friendly AA? In my example it was like this: My CV was a 30% WR guy, who send all plans A1-A10-H10-H1. gotta find that red CV. Rest of my team cruised in the spawn, too afraid to move. Guess what - this game was lost no matter what, matchmaking dealt me a set of rotten cards. I´d rather want to see more CVs, so ppl get used to play against them and concider to take AA-skills on their captains.

Among the blind, the one-eyed is king. Ofc they "accumulate" on T10. When you watch those <40% WR guys on twitch (yea, some do present their "skill" there), all they talk about is "once I reach T10, ppl cant stomp over me anymore, cuz then I have the best ship". Thats why so many T10 BB Players are completly useless.

On top of that what @DFens_666 said: Hipper excells in a heavy Cruiser-Meta. Eventhough Hipper is also reasonably tanky, the current Meta with more BBs then Cruisers per game hurts her. And to make things worse - T8 bad MM. You would put Hipper in an environment like the last CB on T8 - it would do really decent imo. About stats in general: In wows its pretty much the same case as with any other statistics. You can read and conclude from them, what you want to project into them. It gets even harder, when the stats are in the huge area between avarage to very good (You would be in there @Excavatus). What I mean is - we wouldnt have a problem identifying a bad player by red stats, telling him "you do almost everything wrong" and neither do we have a problem labeling someone as "you are close to playing perfect" by looking at purple stats. It starts to get interesting, when you are looking at orange to dark green stats. I myself like to look at my own stats and draw conclusions from it. From my experiance, looking at only 1 stat at a time and drawing conclusions from that... isnt overall really helpful. A few of them can mislead you. I´d like to highlight something here: Thats why I dont like to look at avarage damage. Ive had battles on T8/T9 where Ive done 25-30k dmg with my cruisers, but I got 3 kills - all enemy DDs. Looking at the avarage server dmg, this qualifies as "bad". Well, I dont think so. Which brings me to Personal rating on those stat pages. Ofc, I love to see those high numbers there. But, as @ColonelPete pointed out - its highly influenced by damage. Had a game on two brothers last week, where our team lemmingtrained and our DDs smokecamped and didnt move. Our entire flank was about to collapse and we had nobody spotting. So I had no other choice then to take over, box the enemy DD in, to keep him away, tank & kite against 3 T10 BBs. Result was 59k dmg, 2 kills (one of it 80% from a Gearing, that was else farming our entire team) and a personal rating, that didnt really reflect, what I had to do to win. Important stats for me are Winrate and to a degree gunhitration. When you look at your accuracy, you have to look at each ship inividually tho. And keep your own playstyle in mind. Ive had someone on the forums tell me a while ago, that im a backsitting camper in my BBs that gets lucky-carried only from my team. He drawthis conclusion from my "low" hitratio (which, when we compared the same ships that we had, was actually a little higher then this) and my low dmg. Little did he know, that even when I play BB I prioritize DDs as target. I take my chances on hitting a DD at 12 km rather then shooting the stationary BB at 19 km. Can be hit, can be miss. But I feel, it helps me win more battles. And at the end of the day, thats what it is all about. If you can draw the right conclusions from your stats, that will help you to win more - the rest (damage, kills) will come by itself.

Question: What Winrate will be recorded for the Kaga on the server, when 2 Kaga face each other?

Well... the other team had DD(s) too and they could do the same. Its just not happening. If we keep removing all stuff like this, we will end up in an environment, where only the performance of 1 vs 1 will count - and that will then be "which team has less potatoes win" or "RNG decided who wins". When it became clear, that WG wanted to change / nerf smoke and it was inevitable, I tried to pursuade them to lower the duration of the smoke. I still feel, that the smoke mechanic we now have is overcomplicating things, punishes mostly cruisers and to a degree DDs and promotes passive play. I dont think your island idea is that bad. Lets compare it with the current maps. Tears of the desert for example - its a campfest, where the longrange ships (aka BBs) dictate whats happening. If you have a Cruiser with low range and no smoke - you will cry when u see the loading screen (Takao comes to mind). DDs will cry aswell, atleast, when there are many radarships around. Map design / position of caps force you to get in the open with no cover. So to a certain degree, its map design, that makes game mechanics stronger or weaker, its like a multiplier. So you are right about that, islands do make radar more manageable, I can also say that from experiance, that of some maps, my radar cruiser cant bring such a high influence to the game. I had another idea yesterday, that evolves around the information given to the players. Often, you see something like this - both teams have only 1 DD. Teams lemmingtrain into one direction, but are still careful, cuz they dont know, what the enemy does. Then, f.e. Northern Lights, D starts turning red, and everyone knows: enemy DD is on D, we dont need to be afraid. Maybe, such kind of information should only be available, if you have a ship near to the cap? Why should we know, that a DD (or any ship for that matter) is in that cap, when we have no ship within, lets say 20 km? It gives a very valueable information completly for free away. I had one experiance way way back when I was new to the game, that planted this thought in me. It was a standard battle, I was in a super low Cruiser. It was a battle with CV and we were behind on points, only chance to win, was to cap the base, or atleast gain points by that. I managed to sneak near the base, the CV was somewhere on the side of the map. He was just flying towards the last ships of our fleet, that were near our own base. I even thought to myself: If I enter the cap now - the CV might turn and attack me. Should I rather wait untill he dropped my teammates, so he cant make it back? I chose not to cuz I wasnt sure If I could cap in time anyway and if the CV would pay attention at all. Well - he did. He turned his planes before dropping, searched me and killed me. All while I originally wasnt spotted and no ships were near me. Why does the game give this information for free? This could make DD-play more unpredictable and easier. Lets say - you dont have LoS on the cap and you are not within ~5 km of the cap (range is ofc object to change, just throwing something out there) - then you dont get info, if the cap is contested. Only once its takes.