ForlornSailor

So much this. On top of that, what I always wonder: hardly anyone on randoms is focusing on DoT. There are so many situations wasted, where you could stack damage, but people in general dont seem to see the power of that? Last ranked season, when playing Benson, I was loosing my mind actually. Pretty much every round I marked a couple of targets, of which I pulled DCP, but nobody from my team decided it was worth it, to shoot HE at it? At the same time, they are burning & flooding down from enemys stacking on them, so you´d think, people could draw the conclusion but obviously not. I thought for a long time, that the whole DCP/fire/flood-interaction is wrong. If we would have a slightly more intelligent playerbase, it would be abused much harder. Divisions do it, thats why they have an advantage. Maybe the russian Oktobirskaya DCP is the way to go afterall. It would remove these stupid situations, where you sit there and can do nothing against the DoT, thats bringing you down. On the other hand: it would change game mechanics again drastically. Would BoS will still be as valuable as it is now? DD would shring in damage again, and they already are the lowest. Its true. I was just throwing it out there as a comparision, how high tiers might look like without radar. Just an idea I had 2 days ago, when I had a ton of red BBs infront of my Gadjah, and I was annoyed to tears that I have to wait over 2 min to take the next one down. Is it just me or do you usualy have the wrong ship in the wrong moment? Would have traided for a Minekaze in that moment. Im one of them, giving people the advice to play T7 f.e. Has a real good balance imo. Nothing is too crazy, everybody is sort of vulnerable, games are usualy pretty active and face paced and the "one-trick-ponys" are missing - like Worcesters hiding behind an island and then raining hot death on you. And for some odd reason, I have played most of my games on T8. Something must be wrong with me, I know.

I agree. They should do it in some way like you decribe. It would be a win-win. People would feel, that WG is listening to them. And we players could get the style, the majority prefers. But with how huge part of the playerbase hates current CVs and how little they understand the rework at the same time - I doubt you´d get the result you hope for anyway...

Actions speak louder than words. soft cap on 4 DDs & obviously WG sees no reason to limit numbers of BBs per round further. Whether you like it or not - thats the reality.

There are certainly problems on low- and mid-tiers, its just that many dont care enough about them. I play regular between T4 to T7 so I notice them. It already starts on T3/T4, or well, if you want to really talk about perfect balance, T2. There are however a few things about lower tiers, that ive never really understood. Since we are talking about DDs, ill focus on them now. Like why the torpedo reload of lower tier DDs is so low? Or, you might ask the question, why the torpedo reload raises so much on higher tiers. Its easy to get floodings on lower tier ships with these torps. Especially, since many people dont run premium DCP. And Mutzuki / Minekaze make absolutly no sense in my book, since they start the gunboat and torpedo boat lines. But if you look at lower tier DDs and interaction with other ships: why is Kamikaze concidered OP/broken? Since it has the torpedorange to stealthtorp with high damage, fast reload and the torps are fast. If there would be radar on T5 - Kamikaze would hardly be that powerfull. Or if you have a competent CV or bring your own - he will usualy shut down a Kamikaze completly. Its maybe that DD, where you can meassure radar vs non-radar the best. And if we wouldnt have anti-DD-DDs and radar on higher tiers, any torpedoboat DD would be concidered borderline OP. Literally nothing would stop a Shima or even a Gearing to get as close as 6 km to enemy ships and torp them to high-heavens. And when you pay attention to some people, argueing against radar - thats exactly what they dream about. IFHE on the DDs with 1/4 pen does make sense. Even the Akizuki gains the ability to pen some of the T10 BBs decks, like Requblique and Conqueror. However, 127 mm guns with 1/6 pen + IFHE dont get over the magical 32 mm - they only reach 27 mm, which is helpful in some situations but if its worth it... I personally do not run IFHE on any of my DDs not do I plan to. I make use of the other skills, that imo are made for DDs, to enhance the gameplay, they should be following. Maybe im thick headed here, but things like RPF or TAE are the go-to-skills for DDs. btw - am I alone thinking, that 10% is rather low? looking at similar skills to enhance performance, we got AFT and BFT with 20% buffs, IFHE with 30% buff and so on. In the spirit of Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament Id say, the skills should look like this: -10% to reloading time of torpedo tubes of Tier I-VI ships. -20% to reloading time of torpedo tubes of Tier VII-X ships. 1/4 pen is stupid, I guess we all can agree on that. The problem is: 1/5 pen would reduce the ability to damage BBs and some Cruisers but it wouldnt reduce the damage to DDs. Thats the high RoF beeing resposible. So I´d rather increase the reload, because imo countering the classic DDs with super-gunboat-DDs is just stupid. It prevents torpedo-based DDs from forfilling their tasks. But im 100% sure, WG will nerf Harugumo or all 3 gunboat DDs with 1/4 pen - it just takes some time. There is still potential to get ppl to spend some money of free XP to get to those ships. Once its harvested, they will be nerfed. This is just the usualy thing with silver lines, look at the history of the game..

That hardly helps Shima against the 3 DDs, that @mariouus mentioned tho. And I agree, that the newer DDs is one of the reasons, why Shima is concidered bad. It continues on others tiers aswell. Compare Mahan with Gadjah - its crazy. IMO - we should not talk so such about buffing shima in the first place - not that it might not be needed, but there is another approach to it: nerf the DD, that took a position of beeing anti-DD-DDs. It started with the german DDs, but YY and Harugumo are even better at this.

It was 2000 dubloons. oh wait - you missed that one too?

I definitely know this . Your team has all caps, 400 points advantage and the reds are still reversing in their spawn. Annoying. Sometimes I cant take this and suicide into them. IMO - that game looked a lot better then the one before. I liked the central position, although, as mentioned before, it was a bit risky.

The problem is: someone will pick it up and take it serious. But yea, my answer wasnt serious either, I hope you figured that To me its more the position of the caps. The old north map in Ranked - what a joy it was to play that as Chapayev. Not for the enemy DDs tho. I think I got a 100% WR in ranked on that map. And the same happend to me on Northern Lights yesterday. I cant get it in my head, what WG is thinking with the mapdesign sometimes? Why do we have 2 caps green/red in our spawn from the start and then u got 2 other caps glued to one big island, which can be controlled by 1 radarship? Thats clearly not a problem with radar but with mapdesign, right? I would put Cruisers as the hardest to play, too. It seems to be supported by the fact, that many people give up on cruisers and rather pick another class. CVs are only hard, because the UI throws rocks at you all the time . Also a seasoned RTS-Player might find CVs actually pretty easy - again, personal preferences and such. I still think, playing BBs good is harder then playing DDs good. Sure, you can have relative success in a BB without putting much efford in, but to become a real good BB player? In comparision, I find playing DDs pretty easy and relaxing most of the time. But maybe thats all me then.

Please dont feed that troll. Dont give him the pleasure of hijacking another thread. His weekly entertainment-topic is already too much. Its really not so easy to figure your own mistakes out. Thats why I like to talk about my daily games with my divisionmates after we are done playing. When someone was in the same game with you, he often can give you another angle on what happened and why. Its maybe the one big problem of analysing replays here in the forum - its easy to look at someones replay, and they say "oh, you should have done this and that because then you could have done this and that". Which you cant know, when you took a decision in the round, since we cant look in the future.

Actually there is. Its a common ground here in the forums, that if you have a low number of games, do bad and are in mid~high tiers, that you have advanced too fast. Even players with 2000 battles get to hear, that they have no buisness in T9/T10 matches on a regular basis. And you said it yourself: you dont have Concealment Expert, since you are working on it. So I assume, your captain is somewhere between 7 and 9 points. On T7 these days, its a must to have a Captain with atleast 10 points. You simply are not competetive anymore with less. Then why dont you keep on playing Fuso? Also: you have a good Winrate with Fuso, but you definatly dont "destroy". Your avarage ist 35 549 while your best is 78 413 damage. There is room for improvement. Which I suggest you should be doing before touching Nagato again. Because many people stay at a ship longer then they "need" to. There is no reason to get to T10 as fast as possible - You wont be able to buy the modules anyway, simply cuz you dont earn enough credits. Also, T10 isnt any better then say T6 or T7. If you think, that people, that reached T10 wont play anything else anymore, you are wrong. I have T10 ships and I just played T3 yesterday, among other tiers. Also, not sure if you know: The high tier economy is very harsh. With the performance you currently pull, you wont be able to pay for the maintanance of your ship after a round, trust me.

Im still at work and got a lot of stuff going on today. Thats why I kept it short and simply. Its good I got my point across tho. Sometimes, its even good to poke someone with a stick, since it will provoke a reaction. If that reaction is making you play better, then its a win-win. btw: I wasnt talking about the size of the minimap alone. Id suggest enabling other things like the healthbar and names. Ill show you a picture of mine. See the difference?

- No premium consumables. - Using heal WAY to late. - Minimap is useless. - Its a BB that blabbs you (cant tell which, cuz -->minimap) - Nagato =/= Mini-Yamato - Entire enemy team is behind that cap. Why you think its a good idea to bow-tank them with ANY ship? Ever heard of kiting? - no CE - You keep swinging your turrents left and right without focusing anything. your damage-output is almost zero. - You spent your time chatting, instead of thinking, how to get out of there. You just wait to die. - I assume this was a roflstomp-win for your team. They played all much smarter than the enemy. Exept you. - Can I have you in the red team the next time I play a cruiser plz?

Well, then if I radar something through islands, and the DD gets blabbed from a BB, it wasnt my Radar that killed it, but the BB. But then there is 11 other red ships... I cant just go and push DDs away with the sheer presence of a Hindenburg or Henri, come on, its not realistic at all. Whenever you see a cruiser rushing a cap, he is dead within 30 secs. So what to do, when you lose your 4 DDs in the first 3 minutes and the enemys still have 4. Alt F4? Thats another reason why Radar is needed. If there always would be a CV around and that CV would always be skilled - its another thing. But it isnt. It also depends on what kind of Cruiser you play. I pick Moskva - im more afraid of a huge amount of cruisers or even DDs then 5 BBs. Yes. And DDs can use that to their advantage aswell. I try to remember that situation in D-cap on hotspot once... I think I was Maass and a Cleveland rushed me with Radar on. I used the island to hide, then, when his radar was down, I moved in to his island and put - Hydro on. Marked him, moved back and forth whenever he tried to come around a corner and watched his HP melt from my team. So, for the sake of having a open-minded discussion, that really takes every aspect into account, we all need to acknowledge that the current mechanics have many aspects, which benefits DDs.

Gotta be honest here: I feel, this mechanic is already in place...

Well, he didnt have full freedom. He couldnt move from his position, since the DDs limited his movement. But it wasnt possible to get him out from that position either. The thing is: it has too many things going for it. Concealment, def AA, radar, high HE DPM. Even Hydro on top of that. Why cant Minotaur have HE? It was said, it would be OP for a stealthy cruiser with high RoF to have HE. Now all of a sudden its ok? Why cant other cruisers have Def AA and Hydro, why do they have to pick? Cruiser should be versatile. It would also lower the impact of CV/AA-Divisions automatically. Make no mistake: this abomination is OP, so that people spend their money to convert to free XP to get it ASAP. Exactly. - Put a Chapayev in that position. He could have blocked the caps, yes. But the CV would have moved in to kill him. Or I could have spotted him during the time, when his radar is on CD (still would have needed the Montana to shoot him, or the Conq, but I couldnt even tell you were he was, tbh... - Put a Moskva in there - CV could have AP-bombed him and he would have been spotted most of the time so our BBs could have shot at him (again... BBs would need to do their jobs for that). Whatever ship you put there, it would come down to the fact, that the CV would have killed him. He was more then decent, he knew what he had to do to win, but the Worcester covered the entire middle of the map with his AA.

Oh, you are right about that, they s*****. The Montana was the worst. He let the Enemy Montana get away, after Ive dealt 60k dmg to it in about a minute. That Monty killed 2 of our ships and damaged our CV heavily. Also, he refused to shoot at the Edinburgh, which was ~10 to 12 km broadside to him - he rather went behind an island. THAT Edinburgh secured the win with 2 caps, killing my divisions Atago and Hydroing me, making it possible for the Roma to blabb me.

No he isnt. But I think we are over it anyway. Runegrem went a little bit off from reality, I reacted a little bit too harsh, granted, I barked at the wrong tree, simply because I read so many stupid things from other persons in the this thread and I didnt want it to go there again. Which it didnt so all is good. Im a little bit hesitant to call, which class needs the most skill. Depending on which topic you go and what players there are, they´ll usualy claim their favourite class to be the one, that requires (the) high(est) skill. I think, its rather down to personal preference and talent. To me, DD-gameplay come pretty naturally. I have a good sense of my envirnoment, pay a lot of attention to the minimap and to my distance to other ships. Also I keep good track of Radar ships. For some odd reason, I have way more problems with Hydro then with radar. It showed again today. But Ill join you in one thing: Worcester needs to go in its current state. What one Worcester did today, was not normal anymore. - Shut down 2 caps - Shut down 3 of 4 DDs - Shut down the WAY better CV-Player (look the base XP & plane kills) - Stay in stealth almost the entire game. - Wasnt even a good player! Thats whats bothering me the most. 53% on acc. Shows how OP this ship is! - Ill also mark @El2aZeR on this one: This is a prime example, what you always argue: How a cruiser can shutdown a better CV. Feel free to use this screenshot as an example. so @AnotherDuck if you change your signature to "Worcester is WGs worst idea", ill happily applaude you. Even with a neutral view, I truly think, that statement is actually true...

Did you miss the part, where I said I didnt take a screen of that? Because I dont care? Or you just wanted to throw another random insult. And what argument exactly? You said, its not viable to only spot and cap. I showed you, I got the second most XP with exactly that tactic, dealing 0 damage. I already trashed your claim?!? Besides, ingame economics has what exactly to do with radar..? Clear that up, with a reasonable argumentation, and I might give you your screen. Whats next, you gonna challenge me for a 1vs1 trainingroom? this seems to be the thing these days in the forums. That would be you, which we can see here again: End of story. Please focus back on radar or open another thread, where you want to talk torpedo-tactics or DD-economy. Ill be happy to join there. The thing is: I actually think, WGs original idea was, that CV are the universal spotting class. 1 or 2 CVs in every game, which could provide spotting from time to time, but is challenged while doing that by the enemy CV. And im pretty sure, when they sat there with a bunch of testers in the pre-pre-alpha, who were sort of all equal in skill - this worked out perfectly. When you think about it: it makes sense. Now we all know, this didnt happen the way it was planned. They are rare, especially in high-tiers where exactly this spotting would be needed the most, and when they are there, people dont play accodingly any way too often one of the CVs is a 24/7 CV-main while the other is playing on his tablet in the bus, on his way to school. Thats why WG invented radar - my explanation. Putting radar on all cruisers would be overkill. It would provide more spotting then 1 CV ever could. Or you need to change the maps accordingly. Im actually right now coming out from a game on Northern Lights, where a Worcester took the famous position between the caps. Funny thing: 8 out of 12 ships were T10, yet we had... 0 radar. I did contest C for a while, then tried to keep D contested (which was red) and kept pulling radar after radar from the Worcester (I counted 4 that I pulled, 1 im not sure, might have been Edinburghs hydro..). While we had 4 DDs, with the weird caplayout, where both teams start with A and B, it was possible for one Worcester to block the caps against us. So we cant forget the influence the map(design) has. Oh and another funny note: In another round today, I killed myself while in a radar cruiser by - using radar. A side of the story, that LoS-discussion is completly missing. (I should actually record that part and show it, in retroperspective, its quite funny). So I have my Salem parked at an island on Tears of the Desert, near the center. Happily shooting a Stalin/Moskva division on the south flank. Then, ~5km next to me behind the island, a Benson get spotted by our DD. Im watching whats happening to him and he actually manages to smoke himself up with 400 HP. I wait a moment, but nothing happens. So I decide to roll a little ahead, radar him and get the job done. The exact same moment im pushing around the corner... no. I know what you are thinking - it wasnt torps . So I come around the corner, unspotted, hit radar and our Khaba had actually spammed the smoke and killed the Benson. So im thinking "no problem. Ill just make the turn now, since there is nothing to spot me, before the Stalingrad gets any closer. So I so a full turn... which gets me closer to the enemy side. All of a sudden, behind the big island ahead of me, a Cleveland pops up at 8.5 km - my radar had picked it up. What does he do? he radars back. Im full broadside, fully turned in to a Stalingrad now...blabb. What do we learn? current Radar can be bad for radar cruisers. LoS-Radar wouldnt have killed me, since I would have never poked the Cleveland. Thats the kind of argument LoS-Fans should use, to make a point to radar-cruisers. But nobody thought of it I guess? Maybe... because many of the people crying for LoS Radar arent actually playing cruisers?

Yea... its annoying to say the least. But since I have a little Scrooge McDuck inside of me - I have to do it.

Yea... well.. I was talking about an ideal world. I know its most likely hard to find a real balance there, but when you actually compare the avarage XP per tier / class, you see, that DDs currently earn the lowest XP anyway. So objective play could actually see a XP-Buff - its needed anyway. Maybe subject for a new topic? Time to dig in the numbers...

Shouldnt someone as experianced as you know this ...? Hint: If they would be on discount now, I would be going out with 76 premium DCP consumables. Maybe you can figure it out?

And well just because I think of it now: When you dont plan on sitting 4 times in your smoke to do useless dakka-dakka, you actually dont need premium consumables. So you are maybe digging your own grave?

On top of that: WG throws consumables out left and right. And there are discounts on premium consumables all the time. You can actually stock up on them, when they are cheap. Then they are 9k each usualy, which makes it 27k...

Im sitting on 144 (its 147 actually, just checked) millions of credits. Tell me again how I play wrong and constantly lose credits? At this point I dont even have to care about credits anymore. Thats why I dont screen of that. Unlike you, since you keep talking about economy and feel, you are forced to deal damage to get credits? And I almost never run premium Acc. Maybe in 1% of my games, but I couldnt tell.

wtf? You have a lot to learn young padawan. I dont think you tell the truth. Since I actually did... and before smoke change, I played my US DD EXCLUSIVLY as an objective getter / spotter / teamsmoker. forced to engage... did you read the link @NothingButTheRain posted? Edit: I was SECOND in XP...