ForlornSailor

That spotting is already stupid in randoms. But having that in any battle clan vs clan ...

Not yet

The numbers are from here : http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190223/eu_week/average_class.html I did add up T8+T10 from here http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190223/eu_week/average_ship.html (should be the same numbers and already reach something like 2700 players. Games played is also more then under "higher tier" listed.

You spend a lot of dough for the lost planes - 58.500. Thats whats really hurting your income there. Found a Benson to compare T8 income. Pay attention to the "Ammunition resupply". Base is 75k Benson vs 100k Lexington aswell. @MrConway can you guys look into this? When CVs are now expected to lose that many planes, I think they shouldnt pay that much for resupply. Might aswell cut it down by 50%, it would still be almost at the level, I pay for 1k mino shells. IMO - if anything, players should rather have the economy in their favor during the balancing, not round the other way.

@Xevious_Red oh I have no doubt, that there are people, that enjoy them. Once you get used to the mechanics, got your target-selecting right and know how to dodge flak - they are workable. And, well, if Action or RTS is completly down to personal preference. One likes this, the other that. So arguening about that is like fighting about which ice-cream is the tastiest . But to like them, you need to learn to play them in the first place. Its harsh, when I tell this to some people here, but some of them clearly have not learned - yet. Which is ok. Its a completly new class, thrown into a game, thats been around for 3 years. Nobody should expect to be done with learning after 25 or 50 games. WG bringing their sledgehammer out every week doesnt help tho. My prediction still is: once WG is done with balancing, the class will be relativly hard to play - as in getting good results. Easy accessable - if you translate that into "easier then before to fly your planes in ", then they have already reached that goal. They still have a pretty huge impact on the match, mainly because of the spotting. I have no idea if WG will adress that. I personaly would cut the spotting and give CVs more capability of dealing damage in return. I really find the spotting, especially ~40 sec into the game, really stupid. You need to bring this up with WG in another way. You know there is another approach to make the class more economically viable? Which is reduction of service/ammunition costs. This is a T10 Minotaur. So I end up with the same Service costs as your Lexington. This is Fletcher: Way lower. So your point is valid. Service costs seem to high. Especially when you lose a lot of planes. But it has nothing to do with the balance of the class to be fair. I suggest you open a new thread, present the income-problem, tag MrConway and ask them to look into the income of CVs. Ill absolutly support that cause.

Same here. But you always get a thumbs up from me tho .

Well I need to be more specific. Yes, dealing damage is what its left for them, since that whole fighter-teamplay-thing is removed. But because of this, they had to cut the damage-dealing-capabilites. Sounds stupid? Well, maybe because it is stupid. What I was trying to say, was this: If you want to be successfull in terms of wining games, you better also use those planes to spot. Sounds boring? Sure it is. Rework in a nutcase. Exactly. So we will have a skill gap, like we see now. And it is indeed bigger then before. Which is easy to see why. Before, everyone could left-click their way to (AP)-bomb-heaven and get some damage done, no matter how bad he was at RTS CVs. Even auto-attacks on T10 with Torps yielded some results, even more, if the target was a bad player aswell. Now - those bad CV players cant even get through to drop. And I can even understand why they come crying to the forums and ask for nerfs. Its not like anything literally tells you how to evade AA (I mean in some cases, its not the flak, that kills you, but the unavoidable continous damage, but thats another topic). Maybe ... I dont know... a propper ingame tutorial, that is mandatory, would help? Instead of just letting people click in? I wonder how many people didnt notice the rework, picked their CV as usual and went "WTF? What happened to my CV??". With the current mechanics of the rework, it boils down to this: either the CV is happy or the rest of the ships are. There literally is no middle ground. The thing, that was providing the middle ground before, has one name: fighter planes. The sheer existance of them was enough, to slow down CVs hard. The funny thing is: When 2 CVs of somewhat same skill med, there was such a balance, that many surface ships stopped caring about CVs. That was visible when unicum meet unicum, average meet average or bad meets bad. I was trying to find reasons, why the meta changed so hard with the rework (what is known as "the blob") and I found another possible reason right there: Now, there is nothing from stopping the planes trying to attack. The natural reaction of the playerbase is: "I dont want to be attacked - let someone else be infront of me". And ofc the missing fighters had to be substituded by something - meet strong AA. So now CVs CAN attack anything they want at ANY time, yet they CANT because of AA. And you cant remove the AA, because it breaks the system, since there are no (real) fighters anymore. So yea, my verdict: CVs without fighter planes are completly stupid and a system like this cant be balanced. Its too one-dimensional. Ergo: Exactly. I rest my case. Seems we are on the same page after all.

Source?

And here is the biggest issue I have with this entire rework. You cant do it. I dont see it and WG seems to fiddle around it and cant seem to get it right. How do you do it? I see a lot of whine, lot of made-up-stories but nothing constructive. As dfens said: the only real way, to remove skill gap, is to shrink the AA by 80% - and shrink the alpha damage at the same time by 80%. So every CV can fly in and do its couple of hundred damage. Nobody will care about them anymore and the influence of bad and good players is flattened with a hot iron. And THIS happened already way too often in this game. They need to stop making this game so potato-friendly, that my cat could play it - he actually is already better in DCP usage then some of the geniuses we see on T10-randoms on a daily basis. But hey - WG took care of that too, so now those potatos are buffed again to the same level as my cat. Im drifting but one thing, that Ive said in another thread: now that WG has the idea of using auto-consumables - what stops them from giving it to BBs? Hey! Thats going to reduce the skill gap for sure! Another thing: I missed the memo, when the forum accepted the opinion of red tomatos as hard facts. There are a few among them, where you can see their intention of why they like the rework CVs: because the RTS CV players lost their game. They think, now their time has come. What outragous, insulting some of those people did write. few examples were something among the line of "RTS CV play was so easy, you could eat lasagna while playing, now the new CVs - this is the real deal" (stat check: former 35% CV player - envious millenial confirmed) or "if I would play 3-man-division with Midway and other super unicums only, I would be a super-unicum aswell. thats the only reason why el2azer has such stats" (check stats: all red & orange). Im sorry, but I will tell those d..s..... that they have no clue wtf they are talking about every day of the week, if needed. Anyway. Back to my original point: How do you balance out this class and keep the skill difference? Because, you know, skill needs to matter. So when some guys are able to pull it off (Maaseru is indeed ahead of others, but it goes without saying, that others manage to do good aswell, someone did 100% with Midway last week) then maaaaybe there is a problem ahead of the screen when you cant get avg damage of 20k with Midway these days. And check the server stats: Midway and Haku increased this week, despite the 2nd Hotfix beeing thrown in there. (Someone called a gain of ~7k avg damage a "crashing down of stats" - like for real?). I havent seen ONE POST in all the time, that tried to tackle this. Oh no wait, @DFens_666 made one, about AA, MrConway liked it and forwarded it. But we dont make sense... right. Anyway, people need to realize, that the new CVs arent simply about dealing damage. Their cry for beeing able to get more damage out of the class is completly futile. It goes against everything, what WG has said during all those Q&A things. And when I try to tell them that, they hate on me. lolz. btw: you dont need to play CVs to understand, what WG wants to achieve with the rework. All you have to do, is listen to them and add 1+1. And the last thing I will say about this playing of CVs (everyone is so obsessed about it). Ive hinted to it before. I have access to the new CVs. I have had access to the RTS CVs. I will not disclose how. So either take my word for it or let it rest. (goes to everyone pretty much) Quite frankly: I could stay out of these discussions. They are useless anyway. Its not like WG will listen to anything that is said here. Else we would have awesome RTS CVs for like 2 years by now and everyone would be happy. Well, expect the envious whiners, that cant manage to play RTS CVs but them. But im bored at work and this gets me through the day.

Another good point. And yes, you are right, economy has shifted because of that. It was much harder before to break even on T10. I wish, it would still be harder, so that natural selection takes care of the ones, that cant efford to stay on T10 (they usualy dont belong there anyway). On a sidenote: Yueyang numbers are more then depressing! I missed the scale, how much that ship was hurt with the nerf. And I thought Z-52 was in a bad state. Wtf, WG please.

Well you shouldnt, because then you would a) see that this: Is pretty much what we are saying and b) This is a lie, made up by people, that had nothing else left. And now you spread this too so some knucklehead will use your name aswell in personally attacking us and others. We literally posted screens of us playing CVs (eventhough we, as nobody else either, has to justify themselfs for having an opinion). As I said - you´d noticed if you actually read our posts. And not the hate-spill-bs from whiners.

Well, many people think, T10 is sort on "endgame content" while that is not really true. It is however true in some sense, since WG pushes us to play T10 so often. - Legendary module: huge grind on T10 ships. - CWs are established on T10 so need to get there and play them to get good in them. - Now we had the naval battles changed to XP, so you want to pick a T10 ship to get better chances for more XP. Atleast for me, these factors made me play T10 a lot more then I else would have recently. I actually like T7 the best - Ships, balance, maps. The somewhat funny thing: both old and new numbers are the reason, T8s get thrown under the bus in t10 games. Before, T8s had to fill the matches for T10s. Now, they have to fill the gap that T9s are leaving behind, because T10 is played so much more. People that like their T8 ships cant win I guess...

WG could give XP to cruisers and BBs, that are near an objective, when it gets captured. The achievment "assisted in capture" could move over there aswell.

In most of the cases, beeing a T6 in a T8 is much more horrible. DDs dont have the concealment module, BBs cant even pen the nose of many cruisers and so on.

The reality is, you find stupid remarks like that about every class in game. The only thing it shows is:

Yes. You gathered some stuff from randoms potatos, made them sound overdramatic, to proof... yea, well, what exactly?

Had this happen to me in Shinonome. 0 dmg game. Happened to flamu aswell a couple of days ago, while he was Neustrashimy. 0 dmg game. Can you imagine the outcry, if AA would literally be at a level, that even a good CV player would literally do 0 dmg in a round?

So the T9 and T10 ships in your team lose for what reason exactly? And the T8 CV in the enemy team wins why? Nope, low winrates = its the player, nobody & nothing else.

Mate, dont bother with them. I tried to argue with those guys during the last days, its impossible.

I hope you arent using the damage numbers from ranked as a benchmark for, well, anything. Damage there is hughly inflated due to the heal buffs. You can see that, because often half of the players in the game end up with a high caliber award. The thing is: the most powerfull AA of Mino didnt came/come from the main guns. Its the mid-range, that used to be and still is the strongest, and thats the 76,2 mm. Anyway, I was wondering about ships with dual-purpose mainguns before. Its affects quite some ships, among them DDs. I personally wouldnt have a problem with such an implementation. I guess WG made the decision to ignore it for simplifying reasons. And looking at how they simplifie more and more thing... I doubt theyll go that way. Who says they want help? They didnt accept suggestions - especially about CVs - in the past. A lot of experienced CV players put a lot of efford in the past into making suggestions, how to improve RTS CVs. You know, real suggestions, not like some of the crrp we read in this thread f.e. (not targeting you, you put thinking and reason in what you write) that translates to "I want muh OP boaty and I want it NAO". Coming to think: they actually did ask the community once and let them influence the outcome. The result was the Graf Zeppelin. So yea, WG prolly has learned from that and will ignore most people, that you see in this thread. For a good reason actually. But if you really want to try and make an efford: I suggest thinking about all pros and cons if you have a good idea and start an own thread about it. Focus on one idea. Present it neutral and mark MrConway. If he thinks its reasonable, he will forward it to the developers. What then happens - nobody knows. But writing in the depts of a thread like this one - it will never find its way to the devs. What - you dont like the nice animation? Its like bees coming out of their hive . Yea, its indeed unreal and feels completly wrong. Anyone, that enjoys the game because of the historical acurate ship models prolly has his stomach cramping when watching that.

You hear that, @eliastion? you CV-hater you !!11 But since you are all for realism @mil71 - have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_aircraft_carriers Compared to the percentage of BBs, Cruisers and DDs, that sunk during WWII - you now have to fight for lowering the survivability of CVs. They should pretty much sink every battle and be among the first ones to go down.

Nagato is awesome, Amagi is awesome and with the recent buffs Izumo is quite ok aswell. Also, since this is your first BB-grind, I advice not to skip anything. You need the experiance you get, as gameplay chances through the tiers. Else you will have a horrible experiance on high tiers.

What? WG making a wrong decision? And yea, the guys that I know, playing Haku, are using 2x torps. But actually, they mostly play something (or somewhere ) else.

How long is your ban tho? 24 hour bans are auto bans from the system. 3 day bans, as said before, are handed by someone manualy, when they receive complaints. So the 24 hour ban can hit you, when enough people report you at the same time or you get constantly reported for beeing salty. But what the thresholds are... I have no idea.

... Nice twisting of words, I see what you did there. Nice try tho, sneaking the word ABLE in and replacing the word SUPPOSE. There is a huge difference. As in: Im not suppose to drive 250 on the highway. Im stil able to drive 250 on the highway. So you misunderstood, lets say because we both dont use our native languages, what the point was. The point is: directly attacking your counter is a bad idea. You are at a disadvantage because of the tools you and your opponent have. Doesnt mean it cant work under certain circumstances. DDs going against a radar cruiser is a bad idea. Many DDs kill themself doing this. They could just try to spot it and/or ask the team to deal with it. Because, after all, this is a teamgame. That was the point, not what you made it appear with that word-twist.