DFens_666

Just stuff which ppl make up... look at the numbers for T2-T4 and compare to the other Tiers... then u see why +/-1 MM would be perfectly manageable on all Tiers and not on the lower once... If anything it would need to be vice versa by player numbers

Man u really got me with the title and the first sentence

First of: Props for @SovietFury43 perfect explanation of how its actually happening in game, totaly the way i see it aswell The question is not if those changes were buffs or nerfs when they were implemented - the question is, how did it change the game. First off all i dont think BBs are even meant to sit in smoke, and in all my games before the smoke change, BBs sitting in smoke were never an issue for me, i rarely ever saw it happen (despite me doing it maybe a couple of times - which i still do to suprise the enemy^^). But rather that BBs can rush a Cruiser in smoke and he has to stop shooting. Or they profit from someone else who is spotting that Cruiser in smoke. This actually does happen, and its not a suprise that it does. If a DD or Cruiser spots an enemy Cruiser in smoke, then they are both focused on each other heavily because Torps and not showing broadside because of the ROF. But they cant have all those BBs in their vision, because its just too much, and u cant give the cruiser broadside close quarter. Funny story lol... Stealth firing against Cruiser barely could even work. a) the shell flight time was horrendous for most DDs at that ranges. Hitting a smaller more nimble target than a BB was a waste of "showing" your position to the enemy. b) a DD most likely couldnt spot a Cruiser and use stealth fire against him, because the detection was worse than Cruiser detection. One time i had an (i wanna say akizuki) using stealth fire against me in takao, because my detection was a little bit worse than his detection when shooting. Annoying yes - worth to change stealth fire...nope. Dont u think thats why they made the smoke changes like they did now? So DDs could shoot again with the ability to spot? Btw this was a huge nerf to Cruisers aswell - everyone playing Cruiser against a DD who knows what he is doing can see it... Rush a DD, he smokes, u are spotted for ages. Then u have the option continue rushing or turn away. U turn away, he sees it, can leave the smoke and keep u spotted once more. Ofc u still have to choose between hydro and DefAA, so thats a point aswell which has to be considered. The points about stealth firing is, BBs COULD NEVER SHOOT WITHOUT BEING DETECTED before the change. Now they can do it. And noone seems to care about it. So a BB could and can always rush a smoke, while a Cruiser before couldnt and suddenly he can do it now? Once again pretty much nonsense. A BB was perfectly able to rush a ship in smoke before the change yes, but he atleast could be shot at. Little damage, but a ship with 1k health can kill u with one salvo, and only a dead BB cant kill u anymore. Also as i mentioned above and others earlier: When was a BB in smoke actually a thing before that? Did ppl make that stuff up to get some arguements against BBs? How often can a BB shoot from smoke 3-5 times i guess, if he gets perfectly smoked by a DD.... and if u sit 1+mins at the same position u ask for getting torped. And it doesnt matter if they hit u or not, if they are coming u HAVE to move. Pepsi vs Fiji... Fiji has 3 torps, which can easily be evaded. If u use Def AA, dont rush him down?`If u are angled, what can he do... shot your superstructure at best, and u also might get his broadside which can be punished with US Cruisers (ofc Pepsi is a pretty shitty example id say, because of the horrendoes reload) But the AP is good and it has alteast HE against angling - Fiji does not.

Apart from Hood (which i have encountered rarely tho) i think the others are very much OP or atleast too strong in the right hands. Nikolai took a backseat since Orion, but so did everyone else basicly. GC doesnt have real weaknesses, the only stat which was "normal" was the torpedo dmg reduction... and we know what happened with that. Missouri is just wrong because of Radar. Id say looking at the wrong stuff here: Stealth fire removal wasnt only a nerf to certain ships, it was a massive buff to BBs, intended or not who cares. Earlier BBs had massive detection ranges, now they are actually able to shoot without getting spotted. Imo smoke changes were also a buff to BBs, because they can profit the most from that. Cruiser in smoke gets detected? Blast him away. Cruiser smokes in front of u? Just rush him down, eventually he must stop shooting, or if not, then u have build in hydro for that. Yes torps are dangerous, but they existed before the change aswell. In scenarios BBs usually tend to struggle because of the low armor values of the targets. Best works when they are a little bit angled. Full broadside usually results in overpens. Fuso kinda works best (atleast for me) because of the amount of guns, and it seems to do more citadels than NM. Havent played Bayern often in Scenarios - i think its just plain bad for them. Gneisenau and Bismarck just have so irreliable guns... And as i heard FDG is not better either. Yep, its funny when u get a shchors f.e. heavily angled and u kill it with one salvo. Or on Hotspot when a Cruiser with bad concealment spawns in the middle and gets detected before he can reach an island so u hit him with a couple of citadels... which isnt even his fault for spawning at a totaly stupid place.

Watched Aerroon couple of times when i was a newbie myself and i think he is a noob... Flamu is a good player but idk when it happened, but he and most of his clan are total assholes nowadays who can only insult everyone in their streams ... But he sure does know something about the game. Nah they are totaly unreliant now... ofc i got my bismarck after they made changes to the secondaries (story of my life i guess...), and its totaly nothing compared to how it was before. Earlier u got hit by bismarck secondaries u had several fires in no time. Now if i play Bismarck secondary build i usually have 1-4 fires with 100-150 hits. And i dont have to tell u that 1 fire is pretty much worth nothing. The problem with the secondaries are, that they aim at the belt... which ofc makes sense when i want to hit an enemy BB with them, so i deal like 0 damage. In the end i rather target a Cruiser or DD even further away, because they tend to deal more damage to them. Blame WG once more.... U are all BBabies? Funny that u consider yourself to be one^^

And some kept dreaming for 4x4 on the French Hightier BBs... how crazy would that be...

But in the end they play totaly different. With cruisers i mostly rely on my guns to deal damage, while DDs are better peashooters and rely on fire on top of that to deal damage. But still torps as primary armament (yes depends on nation). In my few DD matches it might have happened that, after i fought off the enemy DD, i might not touch my guns anymore. Sometimes its enough to smoke your team (thx WG btw...), spot for them, spot torps, get caps to win a game. I rely more on my team to do stuff, and i help them with my stealth. Ye but still i mean <15km ^^... full broadside wouldnt even evade. First salvo was 2 overpens in his superstructure, the rest went below and above. 2nd salvo just 1 pen 0 damage. 3rd salvo no hit at all. And they were all deadcenter coming down on him. But RNG says half falls short, and the other half goes too far... Missing shots at close range, yep nothing new there, happens frequently with my Bismarck. 1,9km Edinburgh out of smoke he had 15k health i basicly needed 5 hits i think... well nope, got 3 Hits LOL! Othes went just left and right. Full broadside BB at close range... nope they just fall into the water. Or lately Izumo full broadside at 6km when i surprised him. Front turrets 3 fall in the water below his turrets, 1 flies over him^^ Guess its just me then. On the other hand dealing 30-40k damage at 17-22km seems to be easier actually, only RNGesus knows why... Also depends on playstyle id say, f.e. German Cruisers have only 17,8km range, but i rather go for Main battery mod then range mod, so my reload is 8,8sec. Flamu gave me a good idea, so i play hindenburg with spotter plane and spotter mod now, really pushed the damage once more. Also nice vs RN CLs in smoke behind rocks Well maybe some are, but not in general id say. question is how would hightier matches look like with lets say 7 Cruisers each side. Happens not that often (if ever), but on lowertiers it does happen sometimes. Usually less campy ofc.

If u get surprise torped by a DD, then u made a mistake as a BB when u were camping/sniping and the enemy DD pushed around at the flank. Or u went alone somewhere and noone is screening for u... If u follow your DDs/Cruisers, then u are safe from torps in the front - basicly where the enemy DD is supposed to be, because they get spotted. A DD can only target u behind the first line when his torps wont get spotted, otherwise he most likely will choose another target which is closer. There are very few cruiser which can torp u without retaliation, and when a Cruiser with short torp range gets to u - well thats his option to kill u. BBs arent meant to kill anything and at the same time withstand everything. A game cant function like that. Also i think its funny to read ppl how Cruisers are crushing BBs and when u look at their stats, first xx ships in avg dmg are all BBs... Even BBs lower tier than Cruisers. How does this perception work with reality?

Actually who cares? Maybe they would play something else when the waiting time gets too long Its like win-win... But WG would only see profit melting when some ppl might quit the game or wont buy mighty Premium BB because takes too long to start a game.

Faster shooting guns? More action? I love cruisers Id say angle with Cruisers like u angle against a Yamato... Then the armor might work for u if the enemy aims at your broadside. Show them some and turn in enough to bounce his shells, that usually works best. Nose in is usually bad because almost every Cruiser gets overmatched by the BBs. Same with kiting away. Last one is a defeat, but what u gonna do with retard monkeys on your team... Every ship showing broadside, but when 4 out of 5 BBs never shoot because they obviously wanna killsteal only, then u cant win... Other than that, pretty fun matches atleast for me. (only last couple of days, and didnt play sooo much) Playing BB however is frustrating to me - Cant take the RNG 0 hits 0 damage crap too long. Just today MIssouri 10-15km Scharnhorst Gneisenau FULL BROADSIDE.. 2 overpens, 1 pen 0 damage, no hit at all WUT?... too frustrating...

BBBBB? BB-BaBy-Bingo How about BBs getting punished for showing broadside as a change? Cruisers on lowtier can be devastated aswell - the BBs are just not accurate enough sometimes, but they dont really need to be, because then they could shred DDs like flies, which would be totaly wrong (as it is on highertiers currently) Good luck with ppl not sniping, did u compare the ranges from lets say Karlsruhe (which has been around for some time) and the Duguay-Trouin? 11,7 vs 15km... Or the RN BB range compared to cruisers? Because they have devastating HE... AP is not so much a problem from the other BBs, because can be overpens and low damage. But with HE its several k damage no matter what angle and on top u get engine/rudder damage + fires + guns incapacitated. With 2nd salvo they are usually dead in the water... Conclusion: WG screws the game more with every new ship line.

Really funny how much different the feelings are for those ships Fiji - awesome, love it, what else can u say about it? Edin - didnt really like it. Basicly a Fiji with horrible MM. The heal compensates a little, but in the end it feels like a struggle because of the low range (a bit like Takao/Atago, but they have HE atleast) Neptune - At first i struggled a bit, not necessarily because i got killed too fast, but its just so much different from the others before. Now i think its awesome, had my best game in it aswell. Ppl are very greedy to shoot at your broadside, despite the fact its able to bounce the shells. If u manage to exploit that, then its not really that squishy. But beware of the 6,4km smoke detection. But if something rushes u down, just blast him away with the 8 single torps u have

Ofc he just got an imaginary kill right in the same moment LOL. Also i posted a screenshot 2 pages back which shows a 0 hit 9301 damage detonation - which u ofc conveniently ignore in order to prove your "facts". And even that backfired now.... Better admit it now that u were wrong or leave it be id suggest...

Try logging out and back in.

I would maybe ask if u are SURE that there was only the Z52? Maybe Neptune or something in smoke? Even at 7-8km Neptune AA can hurt pretty bad.

MFAA is not like Manual Secondaries. Your AA still works - but ofc it works better with the skill when u have large enough caliber :P

Manual selecting a squad will give u 30% DPM bonus - even when u dont have the Cptn skill. But it will also prefer to shoot that target down, instead of the normal priority: Torpedo bombers (with payload) Dive bombers (with payload) Torpedo bombers (without payload) Dive bombers (without payload) Fighters

Yes and imo the CV shouldnt do everything by himself. Its totaly fine when he spots the DD and the team does the damage. The problem that, especially BBs, have too strong AA is true, and ive been saying that they should lower BB AA drastically for some time now. Then CVs wouldnt need to focus DDs, and the whole issue with buffing AA on DDs wouldnt even be here. But WG just cant fix the root of the problem, they rather work around it, which is totaly stupid, and creates only more imbalance across the board. The problem is, bad CV players will never do that. And getting your torps spotted all the time is totaly not fun - other classes arent denied their primary damage dealing capability either by just spotting. Yup, thats what ive been saying all along, for BBs that is. Imo some Cruisers are in desperate need of an AA buff... they have worse AA than BBs and even DDs nowadays... I think 3-4 km air detection for most DDs is totaly fine. For dedicated CV players it doesnt seem to be that bad to drop a DD - and somehow thats wrong. CVs already have the highest influence in the game. If u deny them the kill on DDs, the game gets a little bit more balanced, because then the DDs (imo the 2nd most influencial class) can help the team with the worse CV player. But when a CV can shutdown the other CV and nuke DDs and other ships with ease it brings a its just too much imo. If TBs couldnt hit DDs, then good hits with DBs on DDs would be ok. At least something US CVs would be better then.

Imo thats the whole problem: DDs were too vulnerable to CV strikes (from good players and/or crossdrops) instead of doing some changes there, they rather slap DefAA on DDs (and buff it, btw is that already out or still to come?), so some DDs can play AA Fortress, while others get shafted. Id go for something like this: - DWT Torps for all CVs (which cant hit DDs) - Planes wont spot Torps anymore - Remove DPM increase for DefAA on DDs, keep the panic. In the end the CV has the ability to spot the DD, thus helping his team to kill it. And for me that would be great to get some teamwork back to the game. But the CV cant just go there and kill a DD. DDs are screwed over enough. No need to screw them, aswell as giving them stupid AA to screw over the CVs... Also with DBs u have the ability to deal some damage on DDs, when necessary.

For the latter: U brought Missouri into the arguement too, so he has atleast 12,2km detection vs 9,45 km Radar range. The problem is with the DDs that i can radar in open water where i am easily spotted. Had Ocean last night and i radared DDs 3 times i think... Their own fault. If i get into a position where i can Radar a DD inside a cap it may involve taking a risk too. This is good play on the enemies part. If the Radar cruiser is behind an island, he cant shoot the target himself. A lot of Radar ships are reluctant to use Radar when they cant shoot themself (and dont even think about saying that its not true), which is once again a gamble and a good teamplay on the players part if he chooses to do so. Im happily radaring for my Team if i can, because i always hope that my team might actually benefit from it. I refuse to get down to potato level just because. 1. Basicly what i said above. Radar Cruiser behind island cant shoot himself. So he is working for his team, i think this is good. Or for his Division. 2. Cruiser camping with BBs wont pose any Radar threat to u in your cap, cost it most likely cant reach u. Lets put an example for the Division: U have a DM and a BB and some other ship. The DM is hiding behind an island, which u cant spot. But suddenly u might spot the BB going to a Cap where u are going. Its safe to assume that his Division mates are also going for that cap. So by only looking at the lineup, u might count 1+1 together which equals Radar ship nearby, better bale out, if its dangerous. Couple of days ago we played Neptune + Missouri Division on Tears of the Cruisers (lucky it was Domination) we spaned at C (we had a good DD) so i followed him to the cap. he spotted an Akizuki, and the 3 BBs behind me who were enganged with the enemy BBs. Our DD took some punishment, but i tried to get closer to the cap. Akizuki smoked retreated, which gave me the opportunity to get in the cap and smoke up. Akizuki came back, i punished him heavily at 8km. If he would have looked at the lineup, he would have known that i (neptune) must be somewhere around there because my Division mate was also there, but he didnt care, so he got punished for it. I see it as a problem with the playerbase. U have to play more cautious, yes ofc. But why is it a problem when a Cruiser (not talking about Missouri here, because i agree Radar on him is wrong) can defend himself/his team against DDs, because its his job? Technically its impossible to do otherwise unless the DD lets u. If your DDs are crap, then u have no way to get the enemy DD. Imo thats wrong too. Yes ofc, but imo Planes tend to be worse for DDs than Radar. A) he can spot u aslong as he wishes, depending on DD, some are screwed more by this, while Radar has limited time and range B) he can spot torps which totaly negates your damage potential, and negating any spotting for your team. So planes counter your active game play (spotting, dealing damage) while Radar counter yours defensive capability (concealment). CVs being OP or UP is a seperate issue - which im agreeing to aswell. In the end everyone wants to have his own piece of the cake: CV players have the biggest potential influence on the game - which most CV players agree to, and they think its correct that way. DD players are mad about getting Torpedoes nerfed, Radar spotted, plane spotted, plane spotted torps, hydro BBabies cry about everything Cruisers feel themselves as XP pinatas which are at the mercy of the 5 BBs on the enemy team shooting them and praying to RNGesus not to get instakilled. Currently its so fucked up that everyone is mad about something, because noone can do what he is supposed to do. The problem is, instead of getting some balancing right, WG only makes it worse with everything they release or change. In reality that doesnt make any sense, since u have to pay the fixed costs for the "repair" of your ship the instant MM puts u into a match. The problem is ppl dont know that, which is WGs fault once more.

Basicly id say, this statement doesnt make sense because it cant be true. In the end it would mean that Cruisers are pushing because they have Radar, or Missouri is pushing, but its a BB and u say they camp, then it cant be true. Pushing cruisers... Its not about radar, its about ppl dont understand: - Radar ships in game and the ability to recognize where they are (i agree it gets more problematic the more radar ships there are). If u are at Cap A and Radar ships are spotted at B/C so u are safe from Radar at A. But they dont understand that. The other way is they spot a Radar ship close to a cap, and still decide to enter that cap perfectly revealing themself to the Radar ship. Best case they stop and smoke... - CVs in the game, why is Radar worse than a CV? Yet DDs rush like madman to a Cap while your own CV has no planes up yet. Cruisers cant keep up to give some kinda AA and DD gets spotted by plane is half dead or dead after that. Its all the inability to play or learn from your action or atleast learn which ships are in the game. (The only problem is that WG decides to hide some ships in the techtree, so u cant know which ship has radar from ingame info... this is TOTAL BS imo, blame WG for this ofc). If i play RN Cruiser and i decide to smoke up Close to missouris Radar range or even WITHIN his Radar range, then its totaly MY OWN FAULT! A game isnt lost when u dont enter the cap within 2 mins of game start... But a game can be lost aswell when u dont take an empty cap because u fear Radar. The only problem (which ive been saying for some time now) that we all suffer from those potatoes, who never learn. But this is once again WGs fault, because they dont make information available in game, or dont even give proper tutorials for the classes or tutorials for ingame mechanics. WIthout that, most of the playerbase will just remain dumb as potatoes.

Now using personal feelings because first statement was nonsense and disproven by numbers... rather accnowledge that your first statement was BS.. and save some form of dignity.

23196 players out of 36225 have a WR of 50% or more in 3-man division https://wows-numbers.com/de/ranking/type,div3/?p=232 Clearly they are the minorty... oh wait

This becomes only a problem because MM is balancing around Divisions. If u have 3-Omni division vs 3-BBaby division MM would put them in seperate teams. How is that fair for the other players? Would be more balanced when all would be in one team, even when it wouldnt seem so at first.

yes i know, but for me it feels that the extra 3+ missouris per match since after christmas arent making any difference. Usually before that u had the occasional 1-2 Missouris and they were decent most of the time. But now... 2x Missouri division yesterday went behind islands at spawn on Haven (?, the newest one), totaly useless in terms of Radar usage (lucky it was the enemy team) we totaly roflstomped them (not that its actually fun...)