DFens_666

U cant see the difference between either having no Hydro or no DefAA and for DDs having Torps and more torps orhaving smoke? U still have Torps even without Torpedo reload booster.... I dont have Hydro if i take DefAA. And lets face it, the normal AA values for half the Cruisers are pretty mediocre or straight up bad, because your next arguement will be "oh but u do have AA". Btw u do know new US CL line has Hydro and DefAA and Radar and a Heal? Im ok for having Cruisers with DefAA and HYdro, but that thing is straight up broken crap because it has Radaraswell.

Static crosshair is based on 20 kts, while dynamic is based on 30 kts speed. F.e. u lead a hightier BB which is prolly around 30 kts, and shell travel time is 7 secs lets say. With the dynamic crosshair the shells will roughly go where the 7 is. With the Static Crosshair it would be around 10~11.

Should i now throw this at u, that u want a DD to be able to do everything? Like some ppl are doing to me all the time? Its stupid ofc. But the person this was directed to, was asking for DDs that can wreck cruisers - they dont need this, they already can do that. Also not every Cruiser has Radar, so its perfectly fine that certain DDs can wreck certain Cruisers. Are IJN DDs more susceptible to being radared? No. Potentially RU DDs are less threatened because of their worse concealment compared to other ones, but then again, they play differently anyway. wow, this is starting to get funny. U made a statement, that hightier BB player should have a clue about what they are doing. I just posted a funny video because everyone knows, that its not the truth. After that, u put constantly words in my mouth. So when Radar encourages stealth torping, do u think DDs wouldnt stealth torp when there is no Radar? U cant srsly believe that.

Play more, get more highlevel captains? Or elite commander XP. Everyone has to go through the same procedure. Obviously ppl with 10k battles will have plenty of 19 ptn cptns. A tiny exception are those 10 pt cptns u get for buying premium ships, but thats like what, 1/10 of the way to 19? I think its good that u cant just buy yourself 19pt cptns.

So BBs arent played by the worst players this game has to offer? Thats why i said "i think" Or do u know what they want? Obviously WG was thinking Radar was needed, and they only know why probably. Hydro is vs Torps and DDs, Def AA is vs CVs. Cruisers are supposed to do both roles, thats why they can choose both consumables Your TRB/Smoke reference holds no relevance in that sense. If there were more CVs, ppl would probably take DefAA more often. Alltho i would always take Hydro on german Cruisers, DefAA on US CAs. IJN depends, on Takao i go for hydro always since the AA is garbage anyway. Not sure how id do it for the other Cruisers. I meant a completely different thing months ago. 1. U were the one starting that. 2. The DD players side made the arguement, that Cruisers can rush DDs down. Or box them in or w/e DDs can kill Cruisers?! Not too long ago i played Minotaur and managed to surprise a Zao. He died in <10 secs while fully broadside, i angled away instantly ofc. I knew the enemy Grozovoi was somewhere to my left, alltho didnt know he was that close. He managed to deal 22k damage to me before i could angle again. So? DDs can heavily wreck Cruisers in a very short amount of time. And again, missing the point. U are using my example to twist things around again. Already i showed u, that even 4 ppl might not make it, because one of them is too stupid to understand the game. How are u doing it by yourself then? Im not saying that it cant work, but if the DD player is good, then gl doing that. Btw i do take RPF on some Cruisers, but it depends on what else i need. Its a Marblehead which needs IFHE, so dont have the points for RPF. Lets not even talk about the concealment of that thing. Actually they dont necessarily. U dont have to do much as a DD to still contribute to your teams victory. Also u can do a lot (or basicly DONT do certain things) to make your team lose. Since when does Radaring give me any rewards? If i can shoot, then yes. If i cant shoot, i rely on my team to do anything. Sometimes they wont. And even if they do, personaly i dont get a reward for that. Other than a higher victory chance that is. Not always. U didnt understand it the last time either. A Hindenburg can be better than having another DM. But since having more Radars is like winning the lottery in your arguementation, i dont think u will admit that.

Imo being detected by Radar/Hydro/plane should stay even when u are being hardspot by another ship. So u know, even when u get "undetected" something else will still spot u. So u might have occasionally 2 symbols showing, i dont think thats a big deal. Would help overall tho.

Finaly we agree on that one, have been saying that also... Radar = Counter to DD. Other things = Counter to Torpedoes aka main armament. ok. Nono, i dont go that far. Not everyone who is defending CVs is a CV-apologist. But ppl who are deliberately ignoring facts why CVs arent proper in their current form are those kinda ppl to me. Same for DDs when its just overexagurating the situation. Problem is WoWs is, the pushing team is usually at a disadvantage. Makes sense, they dont have island cover and are more subject to getting Torpedoed. Sadly, u get bad DD players all the time, who are doing their same routing over and over neglecting all other things around. This goes for other classes aswell, but they have more of an impact when they screw up. But u ignore his bad behaviour I would disagree on that one. Its possible to die from 2 torps in a Cruiser. Even when u manage to evade some of them, u might still die or lose 75% of your HP. We had that one before because cruisers needing to choose between Hydro and DEfAA is bad. Most Cruisers i play have less range than BBs, sadly, many BBs sit at 20km... so either im infront of the BBs, at an Island (if possible) or somewhere on the flank (Hindenburg) Then your response didnt make since "Neither do u". Which means the history of u and him. They cant kill what they cant see. Killing yes, by all means. Effectively hunting? Nope. If the DD doesnt screw up. Had one game last week we were 4 (2 BB / 2 CLs) vs 1 DD. Because our team ignored caps all game long, we were behind on points even with 3 caps at that time. And time was running out. The DD was running away from us. Sadly, i wasnt sure if he went north or south. I asked our BB behind an island (the indication if the DD was south or north) if he was spotted, HIS ANSWER WAS YES. That was not true, and totaly fucked us up. Got the DD in the last seconds, couldnt make it to kill him, because of that... So effectively its impossible to box a DD in by yourself. DDs have a higher impact on winning games. DDs are overpowered. Gotcha. Once again u a) put words in my mouth b) missed the point. Cruisers have different impact on the game. The longer they survive the bigger it gets. Basicly no Cruiser has an early game impact, except those with Radar. Ive deleted Cruisers basicly in their spawn (Hotspot RU cruiser spawning in the center) with BBs, does that mean BB Overpowered too? No, because the problem is the spawn, not the BB. If a DD is playing badly, then he makes himself an easy target for being radared. Well... i dont think so. Definetely not the worst players. As i said, i see them basicly getting themselves detected by a BB, or they play SHima gunboat rushing into enemies. They dont need Radar for that. Average DD players... maybe. But maybe they could learn from it?

Well then maybe it would be wiser to advertise for that? Also, since CVs are so rare, DDs have to do that spotting part. Its like a game without DDs, usually the Cruiser with best concealment should cap/spot. Most ppl dont understand this however. Also DDs can even go dakka dakka when the game is close to be over. THats how i see it. Vice versa when u are losing, u can try to get damage while torping the rushing enemies. Also its questionable to play for PR imo. PLaying for the win i can understand, since winning is fun.

Or maybe it was because they dont know how to fix CVs? Im already frightened about the CV rework... Maybe they finaly will screw up the game once and for all?

No, thats because they learn the wrong things from that. Somehow DDs (not exclusively ofc) think, they have to kill everything by themselves, which is wrong. Like one of Flambass' matches ive seen just yesterday, he desperately wants to kill one DM even tho he might have gotten away and win by avoiding it. U dont win or lose a game by capping right in the first 2 mins of a game. Especially a cap where Radar cruisers WILL be present. (once again that learning thingy). However u are more likely to lose a game when your DDs are too focused on getting that one cap and are dieng from it. The most important thing is spotting. If u dont want to spot, like some DD players are sadly, they shouldnt play DDs. Contradictory to itself. A constantly avoiding BB will most like go only ~25 knots. I feel they are a joke vs DDs at "normal range" Which is above 6-7km. Wont even talk about 10km. Yes at sub 3 km they will shred DDs, but they dont need to be a on a BB to do that. Even seen CV secondries kill DDs because they are too gready and stupid. My priority for Secondaries if multiple targets are in range: Cruiser (most hits most damage) DDs (every damage counts) BBs (most likely wont receive any alpha damage, only fires count which is heavily RNG dependant) Still they are much better at devasting Cruisers. Same goes for capping. As i said before, u cant use "lowest damage" really as an arguement, because i think WG doesnt see them as primary damage dealers either. Do u wonder why DDs have such a low survival rate when u see them play? Even on hightiers they go into a cap, smoke up and sit still. The other DD will torp them without problems. There are prolly DD players who have a survivalrate of <15% because they die almost every match. At the same time u have ppl like Flambass playing DD and they have a very good survival rate.

He means CVs. They can spot DDs and would be (are supposed to be) the number one counter to DDs.

U ppl are saying Radar usage is a no-skill thing basicly. Its an "I-Win-button". How is stealth torping better then? The ability itself doesnt require any skill. U have it, or not. Lets say, I atleast, see it as robbing me of fun when planes spot torpedoes when i throw them. Being detected i dont see as much as fun breaking. If i get Radared in my RN CL, its not lowering my fun playing this game. Thats why i wonder, why ppl are saying Radar is making this game less fun to play. What is so specific about this? Shouldnt it be fun to hit Torps on enemy Ships? But with many ships having floatplanes, and BBs having Hydro, they are the main reasons u cant hit your Torps. Couldnt agree more. First of all, many ppl say Radar is bad because they cant play the way they want to. But nobody actually says what is the way they want to play? They want to go into the cap and sit there? How is that fun? Or is it something else... Which i think is roam freely around the map with nothing that can touch u. U can tell me, u play DDs. Noone ever answered that question so far. I dunno if u ever heard the term CV-Apologist in this forum? Just used in for another class. Btw he is calling me a Radar-apologist too so... And yes, it has been used as an insult (kinda) around here. When awesome CV players want to protect their toy at all costs because noob players (which are pretty common in CVs) can be bashed around easily. Still, i targeted noone in particular with that, or did i mention someone? Nope, i just made a general assumption. Im still waiting for other ppl telling me what is fun for them playing DDs? Now u sound like one of those political correctness ppl. I cant help it if thats how the english language would define something like that. In german i could say, they are drooling. Which means the same. Two options here: a) U have no clue about Cruiser play b) U know how to play Cruisers, but are ignoring it just to throw an easy answer at me, which is pretty much stupid. Most of u are argueing, Cruisers can hunt DDs without Radar. In order to push a DD significantly far away or out of a Cap, u have to overextend as a Cruiser. At that point, u have 2 options. Stop and reverse, which might work once every blue moon. Or make a full turn, which usually gets u killed. So what do u chose? The DD would have 3-7km buffer vs all T10 Cruisers at all times. This doesnt concern u. U dont know our history.

Yes, id want to see that too!

New lines are usually heavily played in the beginning anyway, and i suspect since its Cruisers, even more by good players (unlike BBs). So this will eventually balance out at some point i believe. Lowtier BBs might be slower and weaker vs DDs, but their turning circle is very tight, which lets them get away more easily from torps. Hightier BBs have more problems with forced DCP and the overall HE spam, so while the DD might not always blast the BB(s) away, he might profit from a DCP CD, or viceversa, his HE shooting teammates will.

Stealth Torping =! Maxrange torping. Stealthtorping is everything u can do when u are not spotted. Many ships can stealthtorp even when their Torpedorange is lower than their detectability. I dont remember which DD it was must have been T3 or T4 with only 2 Torps (I think Isokaze) threw torps when the target was still at over 8km, and torps killed him, because he continued his path. And lowtiers are much different than hightiers. Concealment doesnt differ so much from torprange, its usually even worse than T10 DDs (the concealment that is). Thats what i mean with Stealth torping. Oh boy, this is getting annoying for me to talk about: Its not about this player or anything he does. Its what he CAN do. And that is what i mean when there is no Radar, hightier DDs could potentially do this also. Much better than a Kamikaze ever can.

First comment is about YT vids and being able to kill ships from stealth. 2nd one is about Radar lowering the damage dealing capabilty of DDs. How are they related in your mind? U are missing the point. its not about Kamikaze. I want to show to u what DDs can do when noone is able to spot them. The entire video is not the point. The only case i wanted to make are the last 3 kills. Yes, he has to show himself to reset the cap. Which he does. But overall he does it at the correct time. Still irrelevant. Think about it otherwise in hightier games, hypothetically without Radar. What can spot a DD then? Other DDs. Or a CV. 2nd one happens once every 10 matches or so. On lowtiers u have CVs all the time (which might be the reaseon for low survivability for Kamikaze). Ok first one. Kamikaze isnt strong in DD vs DD fights. Look at T10 DDs. Z-52 and Gearing have good guns and good torps. If u are the better player, u can wreck the enemy DD. After that, depending how the other DDs have managed to survive, u can now roam free. That is my whole point - nothing more and nothing less. Without the fear of Radar, the only one that can screw up is YOU, and noone else. Imo they seem to be way too hard to citadel. Worcester Citadel is basicly Waterline, hit higher and its overpen all day long. Best results ive had with german Cruisers citadelling them. BB RNG ends mostly in overpens and 1 Citadel at a time. Which is usually enough time for them to turn away and get to stealth. combined with those gunarcs basicly u can sit at any island without getting shot at. And dont forget that reload. U definetely will hit something. A Worcester spamming u is like sitting in a fire pit

No its not. Or care to elaborate. U saying its wrong doesnt make it so. Nothing is stoppinf u from stealth torping. Everything is stopping u from dealing 400k damage in a BB. Starting by RNG, enemy players and friendly players ofc too. U cant put 2 things on the table and compare them when they have nothing to do with each other.

1. Maybe because they should focus their energy about things that really do have significant impact on how u can have fun in this game (T5 CV in game with T6 CV = certainly no fun). Instead pressing through their own biased opinion (Main DD players who are not willing to learn - cant put it otherwise), so they can have an easier game experience- 2. I certainly am not a Radar apologist. And neither did i target anyone as being a DD-Apologist. Yet most of u guys jumped on the train and felt targeted by that. I wonder why Maybe i hit the sweetspot? https://wows-numbers.com/de/ships/ Everyone can check the average WR for all ships. Radar Cruisers dont really peak out except DM. And i think DM is borderline OP in the right hands, thats why i didnt understand the reload buff it received some time ago. I wont take the new US Cruisers into consideration since they are mainly played by Unicum Division players, and ofc they will win more often. But Worcester has the potential to be too strong imo. I would vote for displaying all types of being spotted displayed and having different symbols for Hydro and Radar any time. Ive seen those in vids DD is radared, suddenly Plane spots him. Plane spotting overrules Radar spotting, so when the plane is shot down, are u still radared or not? Cant tell. Also being close to islands, Are u radared or hydroed? cant know, the other can last 3 times as long and is spotting your Torps too. I think its bad. But overall Radar ships do sit at almost same locations in every map. So basicly u can have an idea about where the Radar is coming from even when u dont have LoS. Might be trickier late in the game, i give u that. Problem not every ship has a floatplane. 2nd problem, they die instantly to heavy AA ships.

THe problem is, it is not one game. U have hundreds of Kamikaze games every day where they are can stealthtorp, and lots of sealclubbers do that without having the fear of getting spotted. This vid just shows the sheer power of it by denying 3 BBs who pretty much cant defend themselves against that one DD. No better say, cant engange that DD. They basicly tried the right thing by capping the base, gotta give them credit for that. What does that kamikaze player teach them now? Try to win by capping and u die and lose? 400k BB damage match is irrelevant, stealthtorping works every time all the time. How is that the fault of Radar This is due to - Planes spotting Torps (CV/Floatplanes) - Hydro on BBs. - Ships spotting torps which cant hit them (DWTs) + I dont see DDs as primary damage dealers, thus WG seem to think their damage dealing capabilities are sufficient. 1. Being able to basicly permasmoke is broken 2. Thats one DD...

Yes i am. What does it have to do with Shima meta? U actually think removing Radar from Cruisers will make them less passive? What incentive would DMs/Worcesters have to be as close to the cap? I dont have any use to rush towards a cap in Hindenburg in the early game. I go so close to not get detected but still being able to hit DDs if they get spotted, nothing else. Without Radar why would i go close?

So u wont admit (or dont think?) that without Radar hightierDDs wouldnt do the same things?

Would be a horrible thing. This is still a teamgame u know? Then we could go as far as, why is everyone allowed to see a ship which is spotted by a teammate? Only limitation is the viewing range. F.e. i never denied that US radar is too long for my taste aswell, but thats also due to the rapid firing guns especially now with Worcester. Other than that Radar doesnt need to change imo. Or no, not entirely correct. Lets look at that Island thing closer. What makes certain radar ships so strong? That then can Radar when being spotted because their radar range exceeds theis spotting range. Will radar not going through islands change that? Nope. The very basic mechanic of assured acquisition is working through islands too, so that would need to change aswell. Ok, he is shooting not to lose because he has toi decap his base while the BB is doing a fullturn with 4 out of 6 not pointing at him and not being able to bring them to bear within 20 secs of him being spotted. So only tells us that the Kamikaze players knows what he is doing. And he clearly is torping those BBs every time when he is spotted... Do u even know what u are saying? Are u deliberately denying that he is stealthtorping and the only reason why he can win this game?

Aha, and with little to no CVs on hightiers, what will stop DDs from pulling stunts like that on T9/10? Hydro? Only german BBs. Not active all the time. And they dont have 6 torps (alltho the reload is rediculous on kamikaze), but up to 15 (or 16 Yugumo reload booster). Why would u need longrange torps without Radar? Like srsly? U do realize he would have lost otherwise... He had to shoot. Then what was your intendet argument on that quote? Flamu says cant play 8km torps because of Radar. Makes perfect sense doesnt it. 12km torps can be thrown at radar cruisers without retaliation. So without Radar i can go as close as possible with my Torps, meaning i can even enhance the speed by lowering the range. U think Cruisers will push when they dont have Radar? That they wont hug Islands anymore because they are unable to deal with the enemy DD spotting them and enemy BBs blasting them back to port? It doesnt make any sense what u are predicting of the game. The only thing it will do, the team with the better DDs will win even more often than now. They will kill the enemy DDs easier by themselves, they can then roam freely when they are safe from getting detected. Why should Cruisers need to suicide to MAYBE kill that DD? After that being spotted for 20 more secs atleast. In the open. Cmon your view is even more biased than what u guys are throwing towards us, 75% DDs and highest Cruiser T7. U should know what T10 BBs are capable of, now imagine u are big as a BB with concealment like one and turning circle like a brick.

Fine, ignore the last 3 kills on the BBs capping his Base, but w/e. They cant spot him, no chance. Could they have won? Possibly yes if they would have sat behind the island, especially the Kaiser. No, thats what u are saying, i just put your words together. The vid is not directed at you, its how i believe some ppl would like to see them be able to play DDs.

And u choose a CONSUMABLE to make a statement like that? Basicly i hate what-aboutism, but this i dont get, since there are much worse flaws in the game which are much more game-breaking than Radar. (supposedly) - CVs with -2 MM are many times forced to spot only and MAYBE can attack something at the end of the game. - Many Cruisers got to hug Islands because BB AP penetrating from any angle. - T5 vs T6 CVs get strafed to death, basicly they cant play at all. - T7 DDs vs T8/9 DDs because Concealment module. - DD play when a CV is present. surely there are much worse problems than having to deal with Radarships... Everyone has to deal with something. Doesnt make any difference tho. Many ppl use the arguement, that the Radar cruisers sits behind an Island because he is safe there. What does that mean? He cant be shot at, even when he would be detected because of his Radar usage. Other option is, the Radar ship is able to shoot himself while using his radar, which means he will be detected anyway. CLearly, makes no difference.... So u want dump torps into all ships from 6-7 km without retalition? U know, basicly ANY DD could take Torpacc and get so fast torps that avoiding them would be totaly impossible. Cruisers having Radar is the only incentive to actually move CLOSER to the cap, so they can get rid of the biggest problem they face = being detected, which spells DD. This must be everyones DD-apologists wet dream, torping the crap out of any ship without being able to do ANYTHING about it.