DFens_666

Hmm, i wouldnt necessarily agree on that one. I think there is one prime example when Community gets to balance, and its called RTS Graf Zeppelin - and we know how that went While some balancing which WG is doing is certainly questionable to say the least. Like YY nerf - maybe it needed one, it certainly was performing better than the other T10 DDs, but latest data shows, its kinda crap and nobody is playing it anymore.

AFAIK Maplesyrup Higher Tier means 7-10, so for CVs would be 8+10. http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190223/eu_week/average_class.html

140-150 right now. If i would be less salty, i might have a bit more But it really depends on what you play... RN CLs sitting in smoked used to farm reports like crazy. But when i play CVs in OPs, i tend to get compliments. Lately got 2 compliments while playing BB, that was totaly weird. Most of the time however, i get reported for no reason, which either means crybaby ony my own team, or a salty enemy which i killed.

Speaking the truth is not something you wanna do these days i suppose... Most of the times, ive mentioned something like "thats what WG wanted" i got multiple downvotes aswell. Either you get it, or you dont. Kinda boils down to this.

Can you clarify that one? Im not sure what kinda answer you want Do you mean in general or only for CVs? I mean, we had RTS CV players with hundreds or thousands battle in Midway, having 35% WR and 40k average damage (numbers out of my head, might not be 100% accurate). Did they have fun? Cant tell... we cant "measure" fun, depends from person to person. But he had some incentive to play Midway over other ships. If we look at @Xevious_Red i think he has fun playing CVs. Doesnt mean that the majority would have fun playing CVs, which I understand. (basicly the guy from the video you posted would fall into the category id describe as majority). Which brings us to... ...this. Agreed, and thats the problem.

Not necessarily. Because, getting any damage in is harder now than it was with RTS CVs. Even really bad CV players managed to get a "meaningful" average damage, by just clicking at the target. But with new CVs, you can be that bad that you simply cant deal any damage. It ranges from flying into Flak bursts or simply making bad drops. Seen one guy use his TBs like DBs - he dropped the Torps right ontop of the ship. If he doesnt change, he will never get any damage in But you understand that the game was bad for the other classes? Why is it ok for a minority to have fun, while the majority has no fun? (this doesnt meant that its ok the other way !) We need to be able to play EVERY class and have fun with it. DD gameplay was horrible. Ive seen Superunicums deal 0 damage, what is the average player supposed to do? Well, WG said that they arent done with balancing, so ive tried to say it occasionally in between: dont get worked up about this too early. There have been ideas on how to make +/-2 MM less painful for both CVs and other ships. We can only hope, that WG understands it and they will do something about it. But i dont believe they will accnowledge or even read the whine/flame which is going on right now. Any chance to make a change is to make a reasonable arguement and tag MrConway. And they you still need to sacrifice several goats to RNGesus so that WG might actually do something about it. And people have to understand: Telling WG the opposite of what they wanted to achieve is absolutely futile and will not change their minds. You can only try a different approach.

Ok, fair enough. I feel, many people are getting triggered really easy these days, and i can understand why that is: We all like WoWs, and for many people, the rework made the game unfun, and the reasons for that are many and are not only related to CVs. But its kinda hard when you make one post, and you get quoted several times within 10-20 minutes while being insulted and what not (strawmen / ad hominem yep 21 century discussion culture right there ) Well, let me ask you: Where does it end? Can WG introduce a new ship/class, and someone should be able to deal 300k damage? Then 350....400k and so on in basicly every match. Is that balanced any more? There should be a maximum which you can achieve on average over a reasonable amount of battles. One can do 400k damage (like old CVs) if it happens very rarely. I have no problems with that. I think a "reasonable" maximum achievable average damage for any T10 ship should be 150-180k (depends on the ship), if it goes beyond that, there is something off balance. If we take Maaseru as an example here (ill look at Solo stats): - His Conqueror he has 170k average damage, which is ofc really high. Then again, its a Conqueror which can have a bit higher average damage IF he is using HE aswell (this i dont know). At the same time, he has 1,56 average kills, which is good, but not over the top, and 67% WR, which is ofc outstanding for solo play. - New Midway on the other hand, he had ~240k average damage pre 0.8.0.3. This in itself is already not good. You can disagree with that, i dont mind, but i think its bad for the game if you can achieve this on average over several dozen games. But he also has 2,2+ average kills AND close to 85% WR. Is this normal anymore? Should one player get 85% WR in any class? Maybe is we would play 6vs6 or so, but not 12vs12. Also the high average kill count means, he basicly is able to delete many targets as he sees fit, unlike other classes/players. That does infact prove, CVs as a class is not overnerfed. On the contrary, i think Midway is still too strong. People WILL get better in it, if they decide to learn Since we have only 8 CVs right now, having 1 ship which seems not be overnerfed, i think this comment is not missing the point. If we would have 40 CVs, and 1 of them is good, while all others are crap, i would agree, then it most likely wouldnt prove anything. And im not really sure if T4 CVs are really bad right now. Maybe unfun, but im not sure if they are bad. They seem to be in line with most other T4 ships, so we can say that T6+T8 CVs are in a rough spot, and maybe Hakuryu aswell after the last change. Makes 4-5 out of 8. So saying, CVs as a whole are overnerfed is imo far from correct. That wasnt meant as an insult, sorry if you take it for one. Just feels like, if you disagree with that, you agree with him In case you misunderstood, i didnt mean you with that I just feel that there are some people around here which fit in there. (same people whine about BBs being bad -> they get told to l2p... if they make same comment about a new class -> noone is allowed to disagree) Im not sure if the change was good, even for DDs. I think another approach would have been better. Its actually quite simple: - A DD which is spotted by the CV for the entire team is in a really bad spot, because he has to evade the CV, but also the shells from the enemy team. - If we wouldnt let CVs spot at all for the team (or maybe a cyclone-like spotting), then the DD could focus on evading the CV. He wouldnt have to fear getting shot at by Cruisers/BBs or other DDs. This would also have made it much easier for Cruisers to actually support their DDs, and we wouldnt have this "accidently fly into AA-zone" like we have now. Being a Cruiser and being spotted too early could cause trouble, especially the ones which can support DDs close to a cap. -> Imo would have been way better than the flat -20% detection (not like BBs needed that anyway) And i agree, CVs got released waaaaay too early (like many others said it aswell). Haku was Broken/OP. Ontop of that, the bugged AA on T6-9 basicly, which had too low AA on 6+7, but too high on 8+9. It only creates problems down the line. Like CV players which basicly argued against the sudden better AA on T6+T7 ships... it was bugged, i saw a graph somewhere which showed AA was basicly the same from T5-7 and then jumped skyhigh on T8. But people still argued against a bugfix (thats also one reason why i said at point 2. in my previous post which you didnt seem to like at all )

That was a direct response to someone who said "CVs have been nerfed to the ground" So you do agree, that someone who can pull numbers which we have never seen before in any class/ship, that its "overnerfed"? Someone does extremely well in a new class(ship), which most people have been playing for 1 month now. Obviously, that person has learned to play that new ship, and he can produce results on a regular basis which are way above other ships played by other Superunicums. There is noone dealing 240k average in any ship, other than him in the midway. What happens when in a couple of months more people actually learned how to fully utilize this new class/ship. Dont you think, we would see more 200k+ averages? General statements about a Class being overnerfed are BS. Midway doesnt seem to be overnerfed, because the best player beats any other best player in any other ship. Can be different for T6-T8 CVs, i dont disagree with that, but it doesnt change the initial statement being faulty to some degree. 1. We have been saying this several times by now. But since you said, you dont read our posts anymore, i can see why this slipped through The whole concept doesnt work with the goal they wanted to achieve. Well, there is ofc ONE option, but i dont know if its really ppopular. Scale the alpha damage and AA down accordingly. Then CVs can basicly strike at will, while doing chip damage. It would be less frustrating for CVs i.e. more fun, but at the same time, it wouldnt affect the other ships too much either, because they wouldnt be afraid to get nuked out of the water. WG wanted to make CVs have less of an impact in the game, so naturally they must be weaker than before. That this goes hand in hand with being more frustrating to play is logical to me (maybe not to WG tho) because the gameplay itself is so fastpaced that not being able to strike is extremely boring. 2. Ive never disagreed with CV being unfun to play. I accnowledge that. But at the same time, those same people are spewing hatred towards other people who say "playing DD is no fun". The general answer is "l2p, git gud, adapt...." Sadly, most people are only interested in their own fun, and even have an untouchable OP toy to go along with. They were hating RTS CVs because they didnt like or werent able to cope with the RTS playstyle. With the rework they felt, now is their time to play CVs, and they are entitled to do the same stuff RTS CV players could do. And now they start to moan, because it got changed drastically. Thats how i see it. IF WG is interested to make people play more CVs, then DONT PLAY THEM right now! This way, they might actually realize that they have to change something. If its not fun, why play them at all? Its a game after all, its supposed to be fun. Some people keep moaning and bitching, but they keep on playing CVs. This is something i dont understand. They have never played CVs before, but played BB/DD/CA. Suddenly, they HAVE to play CVs, and i believe its for the reasons i mentioned above. I dont have any sympathy for those people really. And i actually like playing CVs in OPs - thank you very much for jumping on the hatetrain I just wont play them in randoms, because im not gonna be a beta tester for WG. I dont feel the need to play them either, i still have 80 other ships in port if i wanna play randoms, they didnt change with the rework (except DDs, which had a hard time until now i suppose) This is much more reasonable imo. But sadly, thats not what the average player is going for in CVs, and thats why im argueing against it. They dont accnowledge that its a teamgame, and they dont feel that they need to be part of the team. Also i simply cant understand, why CV players tell the other classes to git gud? Its a new gameplay mechanic, basicly everyone started from scratch except for those playing on PTS. People expect to master the class within 1 week? Probably even on T10? Basicly being a newbie and dealing 200k damage is fine... i dont think so. If anyone has to learn to play, its clearly the CV players. New players get told in the forums all the time to play 1000+ battles on low/midtiers to learn the game - obviously that doesnt count when a new class is introduced to the game

I think there is a difference if a BB can overmatch other BBs, or if a Cruiser should be able to overmatch BBs. Sure, we can disagree on that one, i dont mind. But personaly, i wouldnt like that. And i didnt say it should be T9. I said, guns fit on T9. Next sentence i said, Armor fits on T4... Thats why i said, it shouldnt be in the game at all, the whole concept makes very little sense in the current game imo. Big guns with no armor. Im not sure, how accurate WG is with plating (Bow/aft and such), but seeing that they just buffed Cleveland to T8, i would see them scale the armor to T8-9 rather than somehow try to make the guns work at T6. Give it 27mm bow/aft maybe 30mm deck/upper belt in between, good dispersion and fast reload. 76mm belt armor doesnt really matter, as it cant get overmatched when angled properly. Citadel should be protected inside to remove the possibility of HE citadels. Imo that makes more sense than this thing on T6...

You answered yourself didnt you? Being able to overmatch literally everything would be a good addition on a T6 Cruiser? Well, except T8 BBs, but i dont think being able to deal 30k damage salvos as a Cruiser on a BB is something we shouldnt want to see in wows. (WG is usually balancing AP damage based on caliber, so we can assume 18" guns would deal 14.000+ max damage) Even with a 32 sec reload, it would be extremely questionable. Disregarding any fun whatsover, as 2 shells every 32 secs sounds really not something you would want to play, unless you have godlike dispersion.

Legendary upgrades More Campaigns for T9/T10 (where its more beneficiary to play T10). Maybe other stuff aswell

What has amount of guns to do with anything? Its still 457mm caliber... 2 guns with that caliber would mean: - 14-15k AP damage - probably DD dispersion or better otherwise you wouldnt hit anything. You could give it absurdly fast reload to balance the low amount of guns, rather to make it fit at a tier where it never belongs.

T6 Cruiser with 457mm guns Lets be serious here: Guns would fit at T9/10, since same caliber guns are present on those tiers only. 457mm guns are NOT Cruiser armament. At the same time, the armor is a joke, fits at T4 maybe. It just doesnt fit anywhere really....

Ofc that one example was taken poorly. However, the player from that pic has played ~40 games Midway in the last week with >80% WR and ~235k avg damage. It is valid to look for what the best players can do, especially since its a new class. Even if there are other ships around, which i agree are bad for the game, noone can produce those numbers over a significant amount of battles. If someone has 40 games (probably more by now), with those consistent results, that means something is wrong. Those numbers were unheard of even with RTS CVs, and lets not even start with other ships.(highest average damage in Harugumo is 146k over 184 battles btw) Currently its really hard to get reliable data, since we get a hotfix once a week. So something which was valid, is not valid any longer. Like, someone would say Hakuryu is OP because some people have insane high average damage, which was the result of the 0.8.0 version. Its ofc not longer valid since after they nerfed Hakuryu, but the stats are already in the database, and they arent going anywhere. Thats why, we have to look at recent numbers to get any picture at all.

For open water gunboats you mostly dont need Radar to spot them (they are bad at getting caps anyway, since they will be outspotted by other DDs). As for Harugumo f.e., which is also a Gunboat, but not one which is suited for driving around in the open really: Exactly, you need radar for them aswell. But you said, " As it is now the hardest hit DD's are the ones that need to rely on stealth. " which sounds like, only IJN Torpboats are reliant on stealth, which is not true. Ehm... yes i do? Well, currently after the Concealment Expert unification i dont know the exact new numbers, but i new the old ones basicly. That is for full stealth build ofc. If someone didnt use CE, then i didnt knew the value (which didnt matter anyway) And if you say, i cant know one value, how would it be possible to know 2 values But thats not really the point IF i know them. For a Radar cruiser, its mostly irrelevant if the DD has a detection of 5,5km or 7km. He should use his radar either because he already knows where the DD is (cap being capped) or because he is spotted, and his radar range is equal or greater than his detection range (like chapa). However, if you would change it to your system, it actually would matter how far away the DD is from me. Off by 100m, and i dont see him at all, while if it would be another DD, i could detect him. Thats counterintuitive. WG tested LoS radar and they didnt like it.

Grinding to T10 would be my only guess. And otherwise I ofc agree with you... But i dont have any other explanation why someone would just deliberately die within the first 2-3 minutes (its like your first replay you posted with the Myoko). That could not have been fun for him, yet he did it anyway

Ive come to the conclusion, that dropping from high altitude is resulting in pens, but not citadel hits. The highest chance to get Citadels i had when i release the bombs just about when the planes are pulling up again. So basicly when the dropzone starts to move away like 2-3 secs before the runs is over. Atleast for BBs, for Cruiser i felt dropping a bit earlier seems to work better. If you have to drop from a bad angle (like from the broadside) you can wait really long and try to hit the ship through the belt armor and not through the deck, gets citadels aswell.

Someone really did the math behind that? I said that as a "joke" couple of months ago, because i actually could see the logic behind that. Alltho, i didnt compare it to Superunicums, because with Flags/Camo you will get a superior amount because its percentag based. So if i get more baseXP, ill get much more in total. However, if you look at it from a bad players perspective, getting 200-300 XP in 3 mins is much more than trying to get 800-1k XP in the entire game. Simply, they dont make much because they are playing badly. So instead of learning to achieve better results overall, they just yolo die every match and get more per hour than they would otherwise. ofc its horribly wrong, but its kinda hard to change that

Yep, because why go for a Citadel hit with 6k damage when you could get a flooding. Wouldnt be OP at all And if you cant hit the citadel of a BB, while getting overpens, then maybe you should consider the problem is with you. Maybe you should go to a training room or play Operations, its rather easy to learn how to drop ships there. There is no problem in getting citadels on BBs or Cruisers with AP bombs. (well, Ryujo AP bombs vs Kolberg/Kuma really doesnt work too well, but those arent ships you would normaly encounter in a random match).

I really cant figure out what those people try to achieve by posting stuff like that. I mean, noone can be that oblivious to what they are "achieving" (winning/damage). Is it some kinda tactic to try to make CVs look worse than they are? Try to make DDs look better? Clearly, they achieve the opposite if one is looking at what is really going on. Its like first grade propaganda. But i guess it works at this day and age, where everyone simply believes what someone is saying Even tho, the internet gives everybody the opportunity to check what has been said... a little attempt to make an ontopic contribution: Ive played RTS CVs in OPs, because it was fun. I play new CVs in OPs because its also fun (and overall, they are not worse, on the contrary, they can be better). Im not a CV or DD player - im a wows player and i like to play all classes aslong as im having fun. Something, which most people seem to not understand right now....

Thats the "MUST WIN HARDER" mentality. Have all caps, i can go in there and kill everything. Ive lost such a game once 11 vs 7 we had 970!!! points. Then the big yoloing started. IN the end, even our CV yoloed in. Even now if i think about this game, i would like to strangle my teammates....

Yeah, this can happen with bigger ships aswell. Ive been stuck couple of times even with BBs. Someone else is impaling you, and they dont stop. If the Dallas would have slowed down, you could have gotten free. But those players usually dont accnowledge that anything is their fault. They keep dragging you along because they are "right" Sometimes they even start to insult you

Id like to keep them for OPs They are fun there.

Because you dont define a ship by only looking at one aspect. Especially one which can be worked around. Or are you saying, Stalingrad is a bad ship because it has a HUGE citadel? So some BBs have an overmatchable bow - nothing wrong with that really? And btw, you can citadel DOY/KGV through the bow, did that with Nagato. (Hood can be citadelled easily broadside, i dont think you meant Hood). Side armor is decent, the citadel is huge, but properly angled means it will bounce the shells, and so will the upper belt btw. Look at Colorado and Nagato, they have much worse Armor which can get overmatched everywhere (except the belt).

This gonna be gud: So with your 7 games experience you came to that conclusion? You deny others, (who supposedly havent played something), their opinion, while you are doing the same now. 7 games in a ships is hardly worth anything. Btw have you looked at other BBs at that tier? Sure, they may not have the same Citadel, but they are equaly overmatchable (Colorado / Nagato f.e.). Nelson is very strong when played correctly, but rather weak when not.