DFens_666

Firstofall, no, this isnt a thread about insulting people who "play 4 fun" so if you were interested in that, you thought wrong So, what i was thinking about today, inspired by this thread was, how do we play WoWs? Do we play for fun, or do we mostly grind with occasionally~ having fun? And, which one is actually "better"? Shouldnt we play to have fun? Ofc that would be the ideal situation. But does it work in WoWs? Personaly, i dont think it does. And i feel, a lot of players agree with this lately, simply by reading the forums. Lets say, you get home from work/school or whatever, and you have time to play 30mins/1h to play WoWs (or anything else for that matter). So you can play like 2-4 games. How likely is it, that you are actually getting frustrated? Lately, id say its very likely due to various reasons. Having fun is ofc really down to what you prefer on a personal level, what is fun for one person, might not be fun for the other. But im pretty sure, there is something in this game for everyone to dislike. Now lets say, if i want to have fun, i could play WoWs or start any other game i have and like. Wouldnt it make more sense to play something else, where im sure ill be having fun, as compared to play WoWs, where i have a good chance to have an unpleasant game? Now lets look at the other option, playing for the grind: If i wanna grind something, i have a goal. If i can advance towards that goal, even while having a bad game, it actually feels less bad (if you can follow that logic). However, is this a good way to make a game? I guess this is up for debate... Lets go back to playing for fun and getting frustrated, as having fun should be the main objective while playing a game. is it for WoWs? after today and thinking about it, im not even sure anymore. So we constantly see people being frustrated with the game. It ranges from teammates over CVs to HE spamming. Often we tell them "git gud or l2p or adapt" But does it make sense? To a certain degree yes, but i think there are limits. Ill just write my personal view up here, hopefully, i wont get attacked for it because there is no reason to attack someone for how they feel *hint*. Lets say, i wanna play some WoWs just to have fun: - T1+2: Lets not bother with that - T3: Basicly as above, but also its constantly playing against multiple CVs without any AA. This is pretty much a given. Being an XP pinata = not much fun in my book. - T4: Now it gets more interesting, but we still have the problem of multi CVs - all the time. While you can somewhat defend against CVs by dodging and what not, but its not fun to have it all the time. Actually i think, this is true for all tiers. Couple of days ago i actually played 10 games, which i rarely do these days, but wanted to get the directives done. And even tho i played hightier all the time, there were CVs in almost every game. Now, its ok to have it occasionally (much like RTS CVs) but having it all the time fills up your frustration level. - T5: Maybe a sweetspot these days, even tho you are still in multi CV territory, which also puts strains onto certain ships/classes *cough DDs*. - T6: TBH, never really liked it. Even worse nowadays, as it seems to get into T8 MM more frequently, which is pretty horrible. - T7: used to be my favourite, but now we are getting into useless hightier teammate tiers, which has its own issues. - T8-10: Just reinforcing the useless teammates who have no idea how to play. Even playing in 3x Unicum Division, this starts to be stressful, which kinda defeats the purpose of having fun Lets use the 10 game example from earlier, we played TX to help 1 with directives, and our DD player started to get a headache after few rounds because of the stress level: Constantly CVs, potato teammates dying in few minutes and other stuff imaginable (stupid enemies rushing in for no reason, but getting you almost killed in the process for example). - Coop: Not really fun in my book, i do it mostly for missions. And i have to say, the way the bots act lately is really annoying (showing broadside if you have HE, but take AP they angle or they run away from you...) - Operations: Really liked those, even playing some with 4 guys because its hard but doable. But WG is not interested in those, which really was a bummer for me. I was hoping for Dynamo + the others and new ones. The halloween OPs werent really fun to me, because you needed a group of decent people, but the rewards were kinda crap? It was only a one-time thing basicly, why keep playing it? Thats bad design imo. - Events like Twilight or others: Yeah, they offer something different, which can be ok for a while. Earlier this year, the DD thingy i liked a lot (forgot the name) because it was fast paced The Benham grind mode was also OK, but it was boring because you _had to play_ more for the Benham. - Ranked: ok thats worse than Randoms - CBs: Used to like em more, now with Russian Bias + Power Creep i dont enjoy them as much. Basicly because of powercreep, im forced to grind more to stay ontop. And Because of Work and WG never changing ANYTHING regarding times, i often can only play 1-2 or max 3 days per week at best. And not necessarily even the entire duration, because suddenly we have to play 8v8 which makes it harder for some clans (ours too). Having a life outside of WoWs is clearly not allowed - Clan Brawl: Awesome, but again, overlaps often with my workschedule and its only available couple of times per year. So what should i play for fun? Its not about having to deal with CVs/Radars/BBs sniping from maxrange/ HE spamming/*insert what you feel like*... its having one or more of those EVERY GAME !! At some point, you get to your frustration level, and if you keep hitting that all the time, you start to think: why bother anymore? Its a constant gamble: If i pick DD, will i get one or more CVs, and will he go for me? being focused by a noob CV all game long IS NOT FUN even if you win in the end. Winning is somewhat fun, but i prefer having tight games and actually being able to play. Rolfstomps are lame either way, because you are not allowed to play the game, which kinda defeats the purpose of playing a game. And the other gamble is: What will my teammates do? I even concluded today: BBs that shoot from maxrange might do this, because its actually fun for them? I mean, i can certainly understand that if we look at the average player. He cant cope with the threats of DDs/CVs/HE spam. So in order to "enjoy" the game a little longer, he sits as far away as possible, so he wont just die early one. Understandable? I think it actually is. Now ill add something into this, which makes it even more spicy: Some of your teammates are trying to have fun any way possible for them (like the BBs sniping from maxrange) and you get those players in there, which like to do their stupid missions, like get 5 spotted ribbons on TX. Pick a DD, yolo in, mission done. If we look at this, its no wonder that people keep whining about MM. MM cant know why people play the way they do. Some wanna do their missions *their way*, others play so they can have fun, which might differ from our own view. Ok how to fix this? Literally no idea. I think, thats how WoWs is, and it wont ever change. WG will do their own thing, we have to take it. And if you play to have fun/relax or do missions - doesnt matter, as you WILL get forced to play with others who are doing the opposite what you are trying to achieve. One way ofc would be, to get other gamemodes going, maybe even with smaller teams, and being able to influence with whom you play, maybe even allowing some basic rewards and completing of missions. Lets be honest, i could just go playing in the training room, but i can hardly for 2 dozen other people in there aswell, who dont want to play that. But they might be willing to play if they get rewards/missions. Ive basicly thought about a gamemode, much like randoms, but you can join a lobby first, and if there are enough people around, the game will start but the teams will be randomly distributed. This wouldnt matter much, if you could choose with whom you wanna play or not, like only playing with >55% WR people or so. Also i think, giving rewards for that wouldnt matter much. Hardcore rigging could easily be detected, and even if, rigging the game so 1 or 2 people profit from it doesnt make much sense, since you would need 24 players total, and 22 of those dont do anything. So you dont "gain" anything by that, since you still need the time to cycle through everyone. TL;DR? Puh, dunno really... Playing WoWs just for fun doesnt seem viable, because too much frustrating stuff is around in every game you start. So playing to grind first seems to make more sense, but is bad for the game.

Actually it is because you see, noobs still spot you even if they suck at everything else. Unicums raping everything is a given, luckily there is only 1 in every 1k players or so.... So even a noob in a CV is annoying to deal with

But the topics name is "19 points limited" so i guess he wants to get more points? Wouldnt be imbalanced at all ofc...

How is it not time gated if they remove coal rewards Or does that mean, Coal ships/cptns actually stay and wont get removed (X for doubt). Well, captains might not get removed, but ships most likely will. Which means, we will get new coal ships constantly, so... its kinda time gated, if i want to use my coal for a ship instead of a captain. Id prefer Campaigns tbh...

Well, if you pay less you get more in the end, dont you? They dont earn more credits, they only get a bonus upon their service cost.

@Bear_Necessities is totaly correct - you are really wrong on many occasions here. I know, every arguement i make will not make you change your mind, but maybe you should consider, if 3 guys with >60% WR and combined >20k games tell you, that you are wrong, then maaaaybe you are wrong? But lets go here: 2. Shchors How can it be anti-DD? you actually said it yourself, it has no Armor, turns like a brick and doesnt even have Radar. You also say, its easily getting hit at longrange due to that. HOW will you hunt DDs with that? Hunting DDs means, going close to a Cap, which makes BBs have an even easier time hitting you. Shchors is a longrange HE spammer, totaly unsuited to be anti-DD. In order to be Anti-DD, a Cruiser needs to have Radar, otherwise the DD will simply outspot the Cruiser. Shchors can pen 32mm of armor with IFHE, while having 8 sec reload and 12 guns. Every T6-9 BB except Germans and Russians are free pen farm for you, because they have no armor (well, US BBs and Izumo/Musashi are exceptions too). Now, which other Cruiser has the same DPM against BBs? Helena is a bit better, because it has 15 guns and only 0,5 sec longer reload, but it needs closer positioning because it doesnt have the range. Shchors can open water gunboat, Helena cant (as easily). All others will lose. 203mm guns cant really Citadel BBs (well maybe they could T5 BBs i dunno really), the HE DPM is much lower, and while their AP is stronger, BBs can angle against it. Fiji has very good DPM too, but angling migitates a lot of it, as it doesnt have HE. So clearly, Shchors is the 2nd best T7 Cruiser when it comes to sustained DPM against BBs. Maybe even first, if we consider that its able to open water gunboat, as it has more freedom in picking its targets. 3. Yamato - All BBs are Anti-Cruiser. But which BBs are best against other BBs? Those, than can do something others cant do. Yamato can overmatch most other BBs. Clearly, thats a really strong point. German DD: How is that not Anti-DD? And why should a DD line not be Anti-BB? You are using super unicum enemy DDs as an example, why german DDs are not Anti-DD. Thats not the reality. Average playerbase cant deal with a Hydro DD. Cruiser: Clearly Anti-Cruiser. German CAs, while having good HE Pen and Strong AP, their DPM is rather bad, and they cant citadel BBs, unlike other Cruiser lines. They are decent against BBs, but their main point is Anti-Cruiser BB: Anti-Cruiser. There is not one BB in game, which cant devstrike a Cruiser. The problem with German BBs: Their penetration is pretty much the worst compared to all other BBs. Only Montana has worse penetration starting at midrange. So they have it the hardest while citadelling other BBs. How is that Anti-BB? On all other tiers, they seem to be 2nd last also, while the last place sometimes changes (UK/French). They might be durable vs other BBs, but they lack stuff which would make them Anti-BB. US DD: Its really an allrounder imo. Probably Anti-BB is the strongest starting at T8. While they are also good against DDs, they cant win every fight. CL: Anti BB / more Anti DD starting T8 CA: Anti Cruiser BB: Anti Cruiser IJN DD Torp: Anti-BB DD Gun: They are designed to be able to penetrate BB armor, so Anti-BB, but they are also very strong against everything else if played correctly. Anti-everything? Well, maybe not Anti-Cruiser as you cant really fight them 1v1 in the open. Cruiser: Yeah well... they can be almost everything depending how they play them. They have outstanding concealment, so they can ambush most other Cruisers. Their AP is decent and the dispersion is better than others. BB: Anti-Cruiser except Yamato, which i see as anti-BB UK DD: Anti-DD mostly imo. Fast smoke + hydro, great DPM Cruiser: If Radar, then totaly Anti-DD. Without, you cant really say imo. They are decent against everything, but they really lack something which makes them counter other classes in general. BB: Anti-BB / Anti Cruiser depending how you play them. If you are good, they are both in one. Their sAP is extremely strong vs Cruisers, because you get less overpens. But it struggles against hidden Citadels like on BBs or German CAs. but on the other hand, the HE is so good, that it wrecks angled BBs, so thats why they are also Anti-BB in my book. Russian DDs: Eh... i dont see them as Anti-BB. You used shchors torps as an example, why its not anti-BB. DD torps are also mostly shortrange, so how does that work out? Cruisers: Their Radar is more of an area Denial. I guess, Chapa is the best Anti-DD cruiser in that line. Donskoi is ok too, but Moskva really lacks concealment to properly fight DDs. But Moskva is good in citadelling Cruisers/BBs in return. But before that, they are Anti-BB clearly. BBs: Anti-Cruiser France DD: Much like russian DDs. I think they have their moments against everything, but they lack something that makes them special against any specific class. They are good fighting DDs, but lack Concealment. Cruisers: Anti-Cruiser/BB. BBs: Anti Cruiser Italian Cruiser: Anti DD / Cruiser. So id say total comes to Anti-DD: 6~7 Anti-BB: Same with 7~8 + some outliers Anti-Cruiser: ~10ish And you have some, which i wouldnt put into a specific role really. French/Russian DDs f.e. are not specifically good against BBs imo, atleast not compared to other DDs. In return, they are a bit better against Cruisers/DDs. Can be good against everything, while not being really strong against a specific class. And lets not forget: A Yamato which i consider being Anti-BB, is not bad against Cruisers. And thats the issue: If you are good against BBs, you are almost guaranteed to be good against Cruisers too (maybe even against DDs to some degree). While IJN gunboats have problems 1v1 against a Cruiser, they totaly wreck them if they have a spotter for them.

Actually i believe its the opposite: They want to make anti-BB ships, but those ships tend to be even stronger against DDs/Cruisers. Lets take IJN gunboat DDs with their over the top 32mm HE pen. Are they good against BBs? Sure. However, cruisers have less armor and less HP, so naturally it can melt Cruisers even faster. And ofc they are also super strong against DDs, if you manage to outplay them (as in manage to spot them), since they have insane DPM and lots of HP. Also, we cant know how WG rates ships in their Anti-BB capability. Maybe they believe, CVs are also Anti-BB? DDs are just collateral And i cant really see, how the original IJN/US ships are specifically Anti-BB. Cruisers have slow reload, while IJN surely has good firechance, having high HE alpha is really strong against DDs and angled Cruisers too. American SH AP on the other hand, is extremely strong against Cruisers, and they also have Radar (granted, added later) which is more Anti-DD. How is a shchors less Anti-BB? Longrange Firespammer without Armor - it feeds on farming BBs, because it cant go closer. Im not sure if i consider Yamato to be so much Anti-BB if we are looking at the original lines. US BBs have 38mm side/deck (i hope they had that always^^). After that, german BBs were added which could easily angle against Yamato Shells. Only then with RN/French BBs we got those who were completely vulnerable to Yamato AP. And id say, RN BBs are supposed to be more Anti-BB because of their stupid HE. But again, its also very strong against Cruisers because they can get citadelled by it. Lets face it: Most ships are good vs DDs/Cruisers, while some are especially good at punishing Cruisers or DDs. But being Strong against BBs while not being strong against the others? Rarely exists.... Asashio is one, PA-DDs somewhere in between, but a Cruiser getting caught offguard by DWTs is a dead Cruiser

Its already too easy. People can derp around with T9 ships and earn money by doing it. We dont need that on TX (well, MORE of it so to say). TX premiums dont lose money either, but atleast they dont earn as much if you dont play properly.

Latest info was, that they dont have resources to make them available again... so who knows? Maybe never

Yeah, guess WG cant win with our playerbase

BBs give up game influence for being the best damage dealers and being the most numerous class aswell. That doesnt mean, BBs are useless. You can observe this sometimes, when all your BBs decide to sit behind one island, as your team will lose mapcontrol pretty damn fast. BBs are good in providing map control, because they survive the longest and are that constant threat of blapping other ships, even other BBs. But BBs also require their team around them.

WG screwing you over? Who would have thought that ?! Havent opened a single container yet, and i wont bother with the grind. If i get some, fine, but i wont bother grinding the crap out of it just for a commander i wont use anyway right now.

So you are permaspotted in the open, while getting spammed by a Smolensk from up to 16/19km... shouldnt that be the least of your problems? Like BBs citadelling you with one shot sounds far worse to me. If you are in the open being spotted, and you cant do anything against it, then you fucked up. - Both have great DPM, Smolensk can apply it easier because of Smoke, but Wooster in turn has 32mm HE pen, which can hurt BBs too. Smolensk cant. Wooster can even pen 30mm CA plating which Smolensk cant. - Smolensk has Hydro or DefAA, Wooster has both - Wooster has Radar, Smolensk has Smoke. Radar kills DDs, Smoke doesnt. And DDs are the ones you want to get rid off if you want to win games so... Wooster is selfrelient, while Smolensk relies on its team to spot for him at all times. Technically, you could get 19km range with Wooster aswell, but we know that the shellarcs are useless for it. If you are actively dodging in a Cruiser, Smolensk should have a hard time hitting you. And you should be able to go dark too (unless you really fucked up ...) In terms of Armor: Smolensk can get HE citadelled by many BBs, in turn, they have a harder time citadelling it with AP, thats true. But smaller calibers dont have issues getting cits on a Smolensk, even DDs could do it easily. And no, DDs cant easily Citadel a Wooster. I think most of them need to be <4km (if at all), and clearly thats not a place you want to be in against a Wooster.

Eh... Wooster has Radar? Ive literally raped many Smolensk playing Radar minotaur, because the Smolensk needs a spotter in his smoke. Unlike Wooster/Mino, which can Radar it while being undetected and Smolensk cant do anything against it Overall, Wooster has much more game impact compared to Smolensk. Smolensk is a one trick pony, while Wooster has a lot of crap going for it.

So if most ships cant deal with BBs, then what does that actually tell us? BBs are getting pampered as always... If nothing can really touch BBs, ofc everyone will play BB! I guess the next problem is, that almost everything, which is good against BBs, is even stronger against Cruisers/DDs (Smolensk). And something which is bad against BBs, is basicly guaranteed to be good against Cruisers or DDs (or both). The only true anti-BB weapon is Asashio pretty much. Even the supposedly hardest counter to BBs (CVs) pretty much kills DDs/Cruisers faster/easier/better than BBs so... absolutely disgusting imo. WGs description for CVs basicly is "fight big ships", yep, thats clearly working as intended So while you dont agree with @Bear_Necessities about why WG is making those ships, you basicly reinforce his position about BBs getting pampered. If not even the craziest HE spammers are anti-BB for you, what better prove could there be?

Its only 70mm

This reminds me of something which happened quite a while ago. There was a BB, dodging torps all the time. Can be luck/skill ofc. But at one point, me and another DD threw perfect crosstorps at him, and there was no way out... well actually, there was, by beaching like a total "idiot" (more like cheater) It was the center island on Trident, and the BB was coming around the island. Well should have come, so to say. He was losing, so he was in need to do something. Suddenly, soon after the torps were in the water, he just beached at the island for no reason. He dodged all the torps, and that was actually the only way to dodge em. Casually reversed, and came around the corner... Since then im pretty sure, that there are those mods showing torps/shells, as there are also vids on YT showing it. Viable in comparision to other games. Atleast for me, there will always be some frustration involved when playing WoWs (and so is probably for many others too). So if i would purely play 4 fun, id rather play any other game. Doesnt really matter what is causing the frustration, its still there simply because we are not allowed to avoid it. That was basicly the point: Nobody knows why others play the way they do. The conclusion is, we cant get away from it tho... Ofc this is very true. But that includes, that the other persons sees it as such. A BB running away from a Cruiser leaving me to die in a DD might not realize this. While other things are just obvious, like torping your teammate. Can be fun occasionally, but i wouldnt play T2 much more than a couple of games. Smith/Tachibana can be quite hilarious tho Thats basicly the biggest issue of them all. We are being forced to play with them. Id gladly be able to switch to another mode even if id have to wait longer. Thats why id like to get a seperate gamemode. But i guess, that will never happen Guess thats right. But ofc it keeps piling up. If you are fed up with your teammates, having a bad salvo when you need it just keeps pushing you over the edge. The frustration about bad teammates is lingering around the corner every time you press battle, the other stuff might be added to it however

Well, i dont see much use for such a stat. If you are really good, it would show in your WR. Some people would just use it as an excuse, that it shows, that they arent playing badly, they just have bad teams all the time. Which is ofc nonsense. You could just take screenshots after the game if you feel like it On the other hand, what @thiextar said about the damage done is something id really love to see aswell. You could spot those BB farmers so much easier

No, i know what you are saying, but how would MM know if noob A rushes in and dies, while noob B sits at the back and shoots from maxrange? I can work with people who manage not to die, but working with people who just yolo in 3 minutes is not something you can overcome. Also, im not sure about that splitting good/bad players. If there is a 3x Unicum division, what will happen? They will get the bottom dirt as "balancing"? That is quite horrible you know... the better you get, the worse your team becomes (and tbh, i believe that might be happening right now @El2aZeR ) We all have the same shitty teammates... no surprise there, as many good players dont play anymore (or much less) and we have hordes of TX players who have not a clue how to play the game. The difference is, sometimes you get the cowards, sometimes the yoloers - and both are bad. But the better you get, the "easier" it gets to work with cowards, as they actually follow you like sheep. But no skill will help you, if half your team just evaporates because they rush in and die. Ask them why they do it

I wont say i havent thought about it, guess WG gave me Enterprise for a reason? Also i quite like not being so much team dependant

This I like Monarch actually. And ive heard bad things about Lion...

Dont play secondary GK, that will help a little. But i know your response in the BB thread, so i dont think something that you want actually exists, because your understanding of pushing would actually break the game. I might be wrong here, but thats what i was getting from your other post. Pushing while being outnumbered/not knowing what is ahead, is not something you should do, NOR should it actually work, as it would be just plain bad for the game. Ships can take HE spammers, even Smolensk. Every ship has its limits tho, and if you get focused because you overextended, you deserve to sink.

Meh, the signals/camo/credits/premium? (is there anything else) make even less sense for me F.e. i really liked the option to get Murmansk while Kuznetsov was available. So even if you didnt grind all tokens, the 2nd price was also nice (atleast for me).

Yep, one good reason to NOT do it. How many Collection items do we need ?20?`Out of 38 containers, one in each. Sounds pretty bad imo

I was kinda disappointed that we dont get anything else than tokens from the directive. Im pretty sure ill skip this one. Its not THAT awesome either way, and i dont play to play Italian ships in the near future.