Thracen
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Everything posted by Thracen
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So I'm having a lot of trouble with the donskoi. First I was doing no damage at range, all shatters, so I train up a spare captain with an IFHE build. I still do no damage. The only damage I get is with AP within 15km at broadside targets, a nearly impossible position to put this cc in. The rear gun arcs are terrible, the reload is slow, the shells do no damage unless in the above scenario, the fire chance is low with IFHE and she turns like a train on straight tracks and has no armour. Even the radar only lasts for 2 salvos. I try peppering BBs from max range but I get outgunned by my very targets, their 1 lucky round will do more damage than 2-3 salvos I output. Honestly can anyone tell me how to play this ship. I do better in the new orleans for christ sake! at least she can hide.
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Hey chaps, thanks for the time and generosity of spirit. I too would like to take part. Prize 1 Atago Prize 2 Warspite Prize 3 Premium time Best of luck to everyone!
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So I think most people that trawl these forums know my stance on CVs. I think bottom tier CVs get screwed and top tiers get free farm save for 4 or 5 ships in the game. I think in most cases CV players have too much match influence making the rest of the team spectators in their own defeat of victory. The worst, and only unforgivable sin is they just suck the fun out of games. You position well for a 2 on 1, you blow the hell out of the cruiser and you're just about to do your hero pass against the Yamato, incoming CV, you can't manoeuvre and you get deleted. This game is all about positioning, you cannot position against a CV, they have global range and countless attack vectors. Their ability to spot ruins DDs if they just don't flat out delete them and the only threat comes from RNG secondaries a potato can learn and avoid and enemy fighters, which might not even exist due to strike loadouts. People say just sail in a group, this works if you have enough collective AA and you don't have ships shooting at you. Some matches have no AA cruisers, and even those that do have too few and none of those cruisers play well alongside a yamato or a kurfurst, for starters they don't have the range, shell velocity or survivability. The same goes for DDs and cruisers, how long does a Hindenburg last on a cap when his gearings smoke runs out ? Anyway, I want to put an end to these salty rants of mine, so vote. Are T10 CVs fun or are they not? I can then take the results and shut up, either vindicated or proven wrong. For the topic discussion, if anyone can tell me what's fun about playing against a T10 CV I'd be glad to hear it, I fear whatever the results I'm going to have to learn to deal with these RTS interlopers.
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I would consider a fletcher one of the dds I mentioned as able to deal with such attacks. A very powerful AA suit, more powerful that a lot of cruisers, with defensive fire with a 4 times moderator. Throw in smoke and the small size of the ship and it's agility and it's easily one of the best AA dds in the game, 1 of the 3 or so I mentioned in my post of being able to hold their own. Of Course without smoke a cv can keep a plane out of range, spotting the fletcher and watch it get torn to shreds while the fletcher can do nothing but run for cover. Anywho the misconception here was yours.
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Powerful CVs hit dds and CCs harder than bbs. 3 CCs have the power to fend off t10 planes with AA builds, probably about 3 dds can do it too. Both the lesser classes play in front of BBs what good CV flies around cruisers and dds when they can get more important damage and closer targets for a higher strike rate. This damage is also more rewarding due to % health rewards and heal mechanics. In fact a lot of these ships would die to simply being spotted or are at least completely suppressed when spotted. When I play a dd, nearly every ship is a threat, when I play a cruiser nearly every ship is a threat when someone plays a t10 CV maybe 1 ship is a threat, 1 that is easily avoided. Since cvs have the huge power in a positional game to pick engagements their needs to be at least some individual threats for real area denial. Often there is not. The other way round is no good either, 3 Des Moines and 2 minos with a few AA grozovoy and gearings thrown in would certainly not be a balanced game for a CV. We both know which scenario is more rare however. The idea of balancing CVs without representing AA in the matchmaking is a joke. not even a funny one. CV skill is too big of a factor and individual surface ships not specced and divisioned up for the specific purpose of dealing with CVs cannot tilt the scales enough to bridge a modest skill gap between cv captains. This needs to change.
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Nearly all the higher order skill in this game comes from positioning and anticipating how those positions will develop. I'm not good enough to do this yet, but a big turning point for me was recognising moments where it was better to fight hard and die than run hard and die, having the confidence to trade well matters. Trading for key enemy ships or ships you know your remaining team mates will struggle with can all be useful tactics. Even average to good players die a lot, make them pay dearly for the privilege of seeing you sink!
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Yep I still hate them and think they are totally unbalanced in most matches. I parked my freddy with a 19pt cap right on top of our baltimore, best AA ship we had. Sure the Midway lost 2/3rd of his planes, but I sank in trade. CV skill is way to diverse to be balanced in an mm that has no accounting for skil. Can we at least have a t10 AA ship in a game with t10 CVs? Honestly there was nowhere on the map where I was even remotely safe, we had 1 kutuzov and a baltimore and their AA was not enough to protect me. I can't remember ever enjoying a t10 cv game.
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So, I think IJN dds are bad and wargaming should feel bad. Since their introduction, nerfs, nerfs and more nerfs. RPF, radar introduced, more hydro, extra special german hydro, BB hydro, DD hydro, Royal navy cruisers, BB radar in a missouri, DD radar in the new Pan Asian line and HE main ammo bbs, with cruiser detection. I'm sure those more experienced players could list more. Coming next is a revitalisation of CVs the hardest of hard counters to a torp boat. They are at the their very best inconsistent and at their worst, useless and have no unique play style or flavour. Am I wrong? If so why? What points have I missed? What changes would you suggest to fix the IJN dd if you agree, what do we think the Pan Asians will bring to the the issue? For the moment I'm abandoning the line at the yugumo.
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So, I think IJN dds are bad and wargaming should feel bad. Since their introduction, nerfs, nerfs and more nerfs. RPF, radar introduced, more hydro, extra special german hydro, BB hydro, DD hydro, Royal navy cruisers, BB radar in a missouri, DD radar in the new Pan Asian line and HE main ammo bbs, with cruiser detection. I'm sure those more experienced players could list more. Coming next is a revitalisation of CVs the hardest of hard counters to a torp boat. They are at the their very best inconsistent and at their worst, useless and have no unique play style or flavour. Am I wrong? If so why? What points have I missed? What changes would you suggest to fix the IJN dd if you agree, what do we think the Pan Asians will bring to the the issue? For the moment I'm abandoning the line at the yugumo.
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IJNs are probably going to get the deep water torps, which as far as I have seen leaked seem to have the same stats as pre nerfed IJN ships just without the ability to 1 or 2 shot any ship that ain't a BB.
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meh, cvs are pure anti fun anyways. The punish dds doing their job, and brave bbs trying to push and avoid the 2 ships in a match that can actually shoot them with decent AA. They leave the majority of BBs at the back of the map untouched, the exact thing they are meant to punish, even wg thinks CVs are broken trying to protect dds from their auto deletion cross drops. I'm a CA/CL main and I still hate them, god knows what poor dds and bbs that actually play the game think. The most fun to be had in a game is when you survive into the late game 1v1 type small engagements, BBs jousting CLs forced to close and risk deletion trying to torp, just when you think you've out maneuvered your counterpart in comes the CV with his last 3 torp planes and ruins all your fun. Playing the game assuming the cv is going to anally inspect you is a recipe for failure and anti fun but that's what you have to do if you are up against a CV with no real AA ships and a bad CV in your team. Elitist seal clubbing forced proctologists.
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OK, how can you guys say most players are idiotic mouth breathers, then go on to describe idealised mechanics that this baseline player just isn't going to grasp? Sure build a game where they don't do as well, but you cannot build one where 1 of them existing in a match makes the whole team fall apart. You need these people. They help pay for this game, would it exist without them maybe. But there would be way longer q's and way less content and that's before you start making changes that make them even more of a free lunch. I'm not defending stupidity, I'm trying to say that a lot of the enjoyment you get from this game comes from them, excluding them is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Gameplay balance doesn't live in a vacuum it must take these outside factors into account. No amount of forced tutorial or incentives will help them, dunning kruger effect and the fact that these people simply don't care enough make them immune to even basic changes for the benefit, see repair costs lol. Oh and I can't ever remember playing a multiplayer game where I "felt" that 1 character, loadout or class was so much more responsible for the match outcome than the others. CVs in wows, are by far the standout. I can't think of anything close in any other game? Games rely on a playerbase, most people won't play a game if they think they have no potential for influence on match outcome or if it's so dramatically skewed. In fact games that do do this, fail rapidly and miserably a la natural selection. Also can we stop talking about 0 Damage CV games, in random battles, short of being CV sniped, (the most obvious and extreme example of the CV influence imbalance issue) they must be an extremely rare occurrence. For a CV to be denied damage for 20 minutes the enemy team must maintain perfect formation with enough AA ships in the MM (this is rare in itself!) and never really fight the enemy or move through cover and contest caps. A situation where the team simultaneously has to be uniformly fantastic and terrible lol.
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I just really dislike the play balance, if a CV comes to strike me and I do everything perfectly he will lose all of his planes in that wave and do zero damage and lose 50% to 20% of his planes, leaving effectively another life or 3. If a CV does everything perfectly I get deleted, fired or flooded to death, I have no extra lives. ( I think we all know which scenario is more likely.) I don't know the precise value of a plane in exp terms, but it seems very limited, and a CV is only risking his HP a 1/3rd at a time when I'm stuck with 100% riding on the table at all times. Throw in AA degradation, the opportunity cost of an AA build in matches without CVs and CVs ability to target select against groups of uncoordinated randoms and they are just terrible to play against in terms of fun, rewards and decision making. I also think that CVs punish aggressive players the most, something that is a serious problem. Especially when these popular HE slinging BBs can strip half a BBs AA in a single salvo. That and how they CRUSH certain dds, namely any dd that torps for it's role, those poor IJN buggers. A CV that does 0 damage can and does win games by taking out dds with simple spotting and forcing those very low value games for a DD. So to summarise, I want a CV that is rewarding to play against in every sense. I think that countering a CV in a AA cruiser must be a proactive endeavor, sitting in the middle of the map with a 17km bubble is not fun or engaging for either player, it's simply who gets bored first or which teams get rolled up. I think given equal player skill in a match every player and every ship class should have roughly the same level of influence on the match outcome. I think it's clear from the limitations to 1 per team at higher tiers and their exclusion from clan wars show WG is not happy with CVs and their current role, further evidenced by increases in dd protection. Lets hope large but well thought out steps are being taken. I for one am not smart enough to suggest a robust solution, but I think more fun and less bile is possible.
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Yes to compensate for the much, much, much higher hit chance lol. Not to mention the possible perfectly timed second wave or bombers or more torps? I'm sure you know all this of course, I just want to clear up some of the mechanics for non CV players.
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You are less likely to get a flooding if you hit a broadside due to torpedo belts, conversely you get much higher alpha if you are hitting the belt with one torp you are hitting the ship usually with at least 3 torps. As you say drops with 9-12 hits and no flooding.
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I can check my own torp range and my own detection range and my own smoke detection range within a second during a match and I play so many different ships across tier 4 to 10 that I have to very often. Being in a ships secondary range for 10 seconds is almost never a lethal mistake, torpedos have been nerfed to the point where damage and detection range have been balanced to avoid a game ending range misjudgement. Not being able to check your allies AA to be safe in their bubble can be a lethal mistake. There is no way to check in client the AA stats of a ship without owning the ship, EVERY ship has AA stats, the number of ships that have torps are what 1/3rd, further more there are only what 10 different types of torps, it's a hell of a lot easier to remember 10 torp ranges with national qualities, (such as the french and german torps that are often very consistent in performance) Than the AA dps and range potential (as it changes due to skills and mods) of every other ship in the game! I am not talking about a CV knowing this information, I think frankly the best thing to do would be to give a mini map option to display allied AA bubbles you are covered by. If you want noobs to stop complaining about CVs give them the tools to encourage them to play in a manner that protects themselves? Any ship that can strike the whole map and select its ideal targets will always go for the most helpless ship, sometimes it'll be new players that don't know what their AA ships are and how close they need to be sometimes it'll be a dumb map spawn: In the first few minutes he talks about the idiotic map spawn on this map and goes for the poor player. Luckily his team cut across to the point. this is often a rare thing. Frankly I think it's pretty stupid to build a class in such a way as to attract the most skilled players with the highest potential match influence and skill ceiling while simultaneously encouraging the same class to target the weakest ships and the weakest players across the whole map. It's a recipe for complaints, this is something WG is trying to address by forcing CVs onto BB targets, AP bombs, (that still spank cruisers) and the recent increase in DD AA. Hell even deep water torps are trying to move focus off of DDs and onto BBs. Also I would still like an answer to this please :D
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Expecting every player to know the possible ranges and values of allied AA ships is a little much considering the variation caused by modules, skills, upgrades and of course the damage reducing those values. Not to mention if they have defensive fire or if they will even pop it for your benefit and not their own if they do. Until there is maybe a mini map or display option that shows you where you are safe from CVs and where you are not this sort of defensive tactic is not practical for random matches.
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I think it's fairly obvious that CVs have more match influence than other ships otherwise there would be the same soft limit of 5 not a hard limit of 1 or 2, they would also be in clan wars. I think at the moment it's silly to ask people to sit in other ships defensive AA bubbles when you have no idea how much AA range they have or what AA output they have or if they even have defensive fire up or not. Also most matches I have been in tend to have a very limited number of AA ships, if any. These ships are not balanced across teams either. They also tend to be cruisers, the most fragile ships and most targeted ships. Furthermore I don't understand how I am meant to sit in the same place as a Yamato in my Des moines? The yamato has massively more effective range, and much more survivability but any ship would shoot the Des moines first over the Yamato, so here I am trying to protect my BB from air attack and I am tanking fire from every other ship for my BB? This scenario would not last long, Hahaha. As for vise versa, I don't see yamy doing well shooting over islands like I need to in my DM. Can someone explain to me how this would work?
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Player skill and +-2 MM and the 1v1 aspects of CVs make them TERRIBLE to balance. 2 cv players can determine the outcome for 22 others, this is rough for those 22. Top tier CVs are kings, bottom tier they are paupers, paupers that can still delete ships under the right circumstances. A skilled player can have 80% win rates in a CV an unskilled player can get below 30%. There need to be large changes made to CVs. A huge power buff is not the answer.
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This, this is the only aspect of the game I don't like, all the other issues in the game boil down to this for me. Matches where MM, spawns or some other mechanic beyond your control once you are loaded into a game just turn you into a useless target, worth nothing but the points you lose your team on death. Detonations, Perfect cross drops on dds. The only T8 bb in a T10 game. Spawn locations that deny you any team support! We all know the one, the "free CV Kill" every time they can't be bothered to ruin a dds day on the way over, that spawn. Matches where you have no AA in your team and a strike CV or simply a d/ced or useless one. The situations where you simply can't play around the hand you have been dealt. Are there other scenarios when this happens? Do you think some of the ones I've mentioned can be played around? I really want to discuss this because removing, reducing or otherwise mitigating those helpless matches would go a long way to giving me more enjoyment from the game. Being able to play more varied ships in both tier and power level for example.
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Matches you just don't get to contribute in.
Thracen replied to Thracen's topic in General Discussion
I do think that better spawn locations and an increase in map geography would help reduce steam rolls, it'll allow smaller engagements and reduce long range support fire. -
Matches you just don't get to contribute in.
Thracen replied to Thracen's topic in General Discussion
Some don't and identifying the difference is the first step to helping people cope with ones that come down to "player skill" and ones that need adjusting. I wonder could you be more helpful than the equivalent of "git gud"? Steam rolls on the other hand are a function of the exponential advantage of taking an early lead in ships, a pretty convincing and comprehensive study on WoT was done about these steam rolls and they are a function of a team game where you lose players, I don't think WoW is as bad as it' a slower paced game with less cover but I think this is a fact of life. Dota even with MM ratings determining player skill and a respawn system that is less punishing of mistakes teams can and do get steam rolled. -
Matches you just don't get to contribute in.
Thracen replied to Thracen's topic in General Discussion
I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing some of these issues. I really think a smart spawn system would be very helpful and some of the set spawn locations are very stupid, I too got blapped in a Donskoi spawning within detection range with no cover. It's these uncommon situations that really leave a big mark. The MM is always a big issue on the forums but I think there are some very simple tweeks everyone can get behind. Match radar numbers ( I think a gap of 1 here is acceptable but any more than that and I just can't understand why they wouldn't balance the numbers. I know it might cause a problem for those 3 Belfasts in a division but lengthening their Q time and increasing the likelihood of them bumping into their counterparts would be a good thing) Match rough AA values when CVs are in a match I don't think there is anyone on the server that would find these changes unreasonable? Good news is I think forcing all CVs to have a fighter in the US CV changes might help balance out the AA gap a little at least. -
I only skimmed the first few pages but not a single mention of the Gallant? Is it not available for doubloons or something? I think she is a great all rounder dd for the tier, dds don't struggle to much getting up tiered making them good for credit farming and her single fire torp system is a really fun and effective novelty in the game. Throw in the fact that there is almost certainly a UK dd line coming you may enjoy she's a strong contender.
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stop punishing good players with your stupid system
Thracen replied to IamTroublemaker's topic in General Discussion
To be fair, you do get more report uses for certain things? Is it karma or games played ? I can't remember. Also I'm know as a whiny salty player and I've never had a chat ban. Most people respond correctly to my b**tching by ignoring me or commiserating with my detonation/ CV deletion. Maybe I just don't play often enough for things to add up but even with my chat abuse I'm still at like 70 karma.