Thracen

It happens quite often, I'll be spawned in a group of 3, a dd a IJN cc and me, they'll scuttle off and leave me as easy pickings. Most of the time I get wasted near a cap though, My ccs have either died or fled back to their max range leaving me fighting BBs unable to turn for fear of broadsides then along comes a torp plane and that's it, GG. I get to chose, die to the BB I'm fighting in the turn I have to make for the torps or eat the torps. My twin float planes almost never disrupt the drop because they are too slow and if my focused AA takes down one plane before it drops I am lucky. So there I am doing what I'm meant to in a BB, closing to effective range covering my dds and tanking damage and I get killed for it with a single drop. I don't have the speed or the gun arcs to be effective in the same positions as CCs and they don't have the armour to be in the same positions as a BB. So for the sake of 1 CV the whole team has to sacrifice their role and take on blob tactics. I don't know about you but I hate lemming train matches and so do CVs I would have thought.

I don't want CVs out of the game and I know balancing them will inherently be an nightmare and that they aren't that easy to play in terms of stacking up huge damage and exp and credits. However even a half arsed strike in the first 2 minutes of the game and ruin a match for a ship without at heal, before you've even been able to form up together if you've had one of those stupid solo spawns on the edge of the map. You talk of ships that make striking in a CV difficult, the ships you mention sit in smoke, they don't see planes until they are very close and play in a static manner, easy for a CV to avoid no? The problem that sucks the most is that it is quite common for a ship to have no chance against a CV strike, 1 flood and 1 follow up fire can end games even when that player did everything right to defend himself. No other ship inflicts this fate, only CVs and detonations can ruin matches for players that make all the right moves.

I have experiences of that not being the case, too many to count in fact. I do dislike them and I take all the steps I can find to counter them but they still kill me indirectly or directly. CCs I can shoot, BBs I can shoot and angle against or even torp. DDs I can kite and use plans to doge torps. Against a CV all I can do is be attacked and try and survive. Fun it is not.

I've played CVs up to T6 in both lines and I dropped them because I hated being bottom tier and having to spot for the first half of the match waiting for the HE spam to blow away the AA. But I would still ruin A T8 dds day never letting them torp or cap, bet that's fun for them and I would still get good strikes off once the numbers had thinned and the AA was reduced. Frankly I disagree, I know to turn for torps I'm always looking for CV aircraft, I know to be side on to bombers and a good CV will still kill me in a single strike half the time. I drive mainly CCs by the way T7-8. They don't have heals for fire and flooding so 1 torp hit and 1 fire can pretty much screw you. I also know not to sail alone, but by alone you mean within an allied AA bubble which even on USN CCs can be as small as 4 km for effective fire. Whats worse is there often isn't a single AA cc on the map, and I have no way of knowing if they have defensive fire or if they will even pop it for me. Seriously why are CVs so happy about 28 other players having to base all their decisions in a match on dealing with possible strikes because 2 players picked special ships! If I told you there was a ship in this game that can deploy 10 other ships they are all faster than the fastest DD can only be killed by secondary fire and will respawn 2-3 times a game. They are as stealthy as DDs and the main ships can control them from anywhere. You would say that it is nearly impossible to balance that when you take into account the range in player skill that could use these ships. You'd be right, I' be right and this is of course my point. If I am in a DD 1 ship of any other class can deal with me if they are skilled enough. If you are in a CV there isn't a single ship that can deal with you however skilled they are (This includes CVS), at best they can only fend of your attacks and encourage you to pick on someone weaker. Fair or not it doesn't matter, it is not fun or balanced across teams because no skill level is taken into account. I played a match the other day and the CV was so bad I looked him up, he has a 25% win rate across all his CVs and was in a saipan. Our team never had a chance because of him.

So, I get salty, it happens. I try to make it as infrequent as possible always looking to focus on my own mistakes and what I did wrong. However, sometimes I haven't the knowledge or skill to know what I did wrong and sometimes it's just bad luck. So this is my thread to help sort the bad luck, from the you screwed up all the while taking pity on my salty self. Today I'm salty about detonation. We all know it's frustrating and I have empirical data that shows I get detonated way more than I get detonations. Probably because I'm a dd/cc player. (just another thorn for us to bare). I don't use the flags because I need them for rank, and I have had the rare pleasure of blowing up using one anyway, in combination with fire and torp flags. Now love it or hate it I think there is one thing we can all agree on when it comes to detonations. When you get detonated twice in 1 day, I think you should get the flag reward twice or as many times you get detonated, you clearly need them at that stage surely? Just to add to my salt the next match I got insta killed by a T10 CV in my mogami, anybody know how to deal with T10 torp strikes in a t8 cc? I've never felt more helpless in this game, dieing in less than 2 minutes without even seeing a ship. Any help and of course your own salty tales are appreciated along with constructive feed back. (Any "git guds" or alike will receive a stern frown from me o7)

Once you are up to T8 CVs have more survivability than any other ships for the amount of attacks they can make, this survivability increases dramatically when their are no AA specialists, which is more common now than ever. Even the ships that do have defensive fire often switch it for hydro. Oh dear, what a hardship, being able to attack the entire map from stealth, and people think stealth fire is a pain. Again you are making a point of mine, they are very skill dependant so it's very unfair on a team that gets a potato CV when up against a unicum. This is not like any other ship because as has been stated many times in this thread, CVs have way more influence than other ship classes. I refer you too this statement of mine also: "How can you balance a ship that commands up to 10 other ships armed with torps and bombs that are faster than any other ships on the map and can only be thinned by certain ships when they are in secondary ranges. They are as stealthy as destroyers and can respawn for 2/3rds of the match and if played well the enemy will never even see them let alone damage them since CVS at that level have some of the best AA in the game to stop them getting sniped and tasting their own medicine." Being T8 against a T10 sucks even harder if it is a CV because they can very easily come find and attack you across the whole map, no other ship can do this. I spend about 10% of my games in my tirpitz turning from drops and trying to get to the 1 AA cc on the map that usually dies in 4 minutes anyway. I would rather be detonated, at least then I get 10 flags for my misery.

A) the numbers of planes Cvs have at high tiers give them more survivability then any other ship on the map. No other ship can do damage like a CV, they either aren't fast enough or tanky enough to engage ships in the numbers a CV can, B) Divide this number by 8 and you get the real reload time, a good cv will move to maximise time on target and a single squadron can make a t10 dd useless by simply spotting torps for example, no reload required. Also the speed of T10 aircraft is high and gets even higher when ordinance has been dropped. Less weight and lower air resistance. C) Manual AA is a skill often specced on AA ships, every time an aircraft enters then leaves vision it has to be selected, it is possible for a ship to be attacked by 8 aircraft at a time? defensive fire lasts what 30 seconds before going on over a minutes call down. Baiting this out is not hard? But this is really easy to deal with because its not like the best targets for cvs are already engaged with other ships where every second matters and the wrong angle means death. D) I'm well aware the micro is tricky, the problem is that there are people that that have mastered it and there are some that really haven't and the difference between them ruines games because CVs are so influential.

Ok I'm confused, I checked you're account you're an excellent player in all ship types. You know that a pack of ships made up of random players changing direction every 30 second doesn't stay a pack for any length of time. You know seeing torps and not getting hit by them isn't the same as countering them, it's the lost position, you even described this is your first post? Scattering the group for pick offs? good team play? You know that the increase in shell time of 2km for a cc is life and death. "Being in front of some teammates you're scouting for guarantees that you will not be the first one spotted." This makes no sense, if planes are flying towards a group of ships the closest ship will be seen first by the planes. Concealment on dds being spotted from the air is not good enough to screen a fleet and not been seen on the flight path. Most dds smoke to avoid plane spots yes? "True, but the majority of players don't even consider sticking together to negate air strikes a possibility." I state this every match I have with a cv in it, it is difficult to coordinate via text at the best of times with a few ships. Let alone use the fleet tactics you propose, have you ever pulled this crapoff? Ok now you just start agreeing with me. The crux of my argument is this. There is no practical counter play against cvs for normal ships. CVs suppress the designed playstyles of every ship making them less fun to play. CVs skill range causes a disproportionate reliance on individual players for match outcomes. I am not saying CVs need to be removed, I like the variety they could provide but at the moment their current implementation is unfair to nearly all parties due to the above arguments along with their silly exp/credit model. I also think it's absurd for you to argue that it's totally fine for a single player to influence the tactical choices of every other player in the match by simply picking a special ship class. Honestly I think balancing it is next to impossible. A good T10 CV can shut down and dominate a match ruining the experience of players with simple spotting. How can you balance a ship that commands up to 10 other ships armed with torps and bombs that are faster than any other ships on the map and can only be thinned by certain ships when they are in secondary ranges. They are as stealthy as destroyers and can respawn for 2/3rds of the match and if played well the enemy will never even see them let alone damage them since CVS at that level have some of the best AA in the game to stop them getting sniped and tasting their own medicine. P.S. I don't think I'm a scrub. I always want to play with my team to get the best results possible, going it solo is not my style or what I want. I just think the current methods of higher Tier CV counterplay are unreasonable to ask of 15 random strangers from multiple countries of varying skill levels. This is gets worse when a CV is top tier and there are maybe 2 AA ships on the map they can simply save for last.

WoW ok, So I have a choice, sit in a group and get torpedoed at or give myself a km 2 of breathing room? And now you have a single player in a single ship dictating the playstyle of the entire enemy team? Sure that's fine in itself I suppose, I don't like it but ok. How about if there is a big difference in CV player skill, this huge influence has suddenly swung the match, a single ship out of 15. God forbid you get an AFK CV. "yes BB I will sail into their BBs most effective range so I can cover you from air attack that will only partially protect you anyway." Said no sensible CC player ever. By the way this goes straight back to my point about every bloody ships playstyle being compromised because of CVS. Thanks for backing me up. Having a CV in your match makes 70-80% of ships objectively worse to play and therefore less fun while the last 20% get to feel less that useless for once. I really want an answer on this in particular. Here's where you're wrong, being the first and only thing spotted as a DD is hell and no smart player would want to do it and being either herded back into the group by planes or getting cut off from your group are the only two outcomes other than dieing. Language barriers can often be a problem if not being downright ignored, not easy. There are CV load out without fighters all together, most priorities strikes over defense because they need the creds and exp to break even. Lots don't even spot properly. The IJNs have amazing stealth so they can sit far away and spam? No that's how they are played. They are designed to move aggressively with stealth to hit ships on the flank then use that stealth to escape. Otherwise they would be to similar to russian ccs no? I have an AA fletcher, yep it's nice, the second ship in the whole game I've played with a better than 50/50 or not dieing to a concentrated air drop. IF THE SORT OF TEAMPLAY YOU SUGGEST WAS FUN PEOPLE WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT! It isn't fun, nor profitable in terms of exp and credits. I love to work with ships around me when I can, but coordinating a fleet of randoms to adopt full anti CV tactics is improbable and if we actually did play like that CVs would be useless anyway. You're a super unicum, probably with a full division on TS being a big part of your played games. Not all of us have that level of skill or support. This also gives you control over ship composition, in terms of CVs and AA ships. I've been in lots of matches with only a single AA ship, and if he picked hydro we're all screwed. That's if you even spawn close enough to get to any sort of support. I've been spawned alone in a BB and died to strikes just running to help, which was sailing away at a faster rate than I. A T10 CV duel is very dependant on player skill, and a heavy win or loss or early pick off will cost the match in most cases. This is too much to put down to the luck of who draws the better player.

Ahh the classic team play argument, lets take that one apart quickly. Is it a good idea for large groups of ships to clump together? No, because torps. How about if you had dds out to spot, if they are out to spot they can get spotted themselves which can be a quick death for them. How about late game when the numbers have thinned? No again because a tirpitz and A Donskoi have about an 8km difference in their prefered engagement ranges. Also if teamwork was so easy and commonplace the CV would do a better job of covering you in the first place. How about IJN CCs, terrible AA and designed to fight aggressively on the flanks using stealth, they get perma spotted and easily sunk by a half decent drop. Even full AA defense builds make little difference and are a huge sacrifice for the RNG of being up against a CV in the first place. CVs oppress the best traits of other ships, DDs can't be stealthy, CCs have to slow for their BBs in the hope of giving them cover and BBs get hit with a single drop torp get a flood and blow their repair, well guess what they can no longer tank HE. CVs make the game less fun at the moment by weakening the best/most fun aspect of every ship on the map.

Here is one of the special few that dislikes CVs in games. I have fun fighting DDs CCs and BBs be it out tiered, outnumbered or outgunned. The fight may not be fair but there are rules to follow and plays to be made against all other classes of ships except CVs. There is no interplay, it is not even predator and prey it is a marksman and a moving target. They don't risk their ships and pick and choose their fights better than any dd and RNG is their only concern. I have never had fun being struck by CVs, I have even less fun when 2 cooperate. Where is the F-ing counter to these things? God knows the only way they can make exp and credits is with full strike packages so you get no cover from your CVs. Are you all out sailing in your AA CCs? I think not. I'm going up the USN CC line right now and the AA is a joke at T7-8, not enough damage to discourage a strike and not enough range to cover anyone. Yes I am bitter and salty because short of turn in and pray there is nothing to be done. You say life is hard in a CV and its hard to earn credits and exp. I agree. But the gameplay CVs introduce is not fun. I know this is subjective but I feel confident in arguing the point.

That's part of my point though, either you eat the drops or die from the position you end up in after evasion. Also to further call your logic flawed, detection range of planes can be very low, even lower if you aren't looking at your mini map that second, often you can be hit before you get your rudder half over. I have fun fighting DDs CCs and BBs be it out tiered, outnumbered or outgunned. The fight may not be fair but there are rules to follow and plays to be made against all other classes of ships except CVs. There is no interplay, it is not even predator and prey it is a marksman and a moving target. They don't risk their ships and pick and choose their fights better than any dd and RNG is their only concern. I have never had fun being struck by CVs, I have even less fun when 2 cooperate. Where is the F-ing counter to these things? God know the only way they can make exp and credits is with full strike packages so you get no cover from your CVs. Are you all out sailing in your AA CCs? I think not. I'm going up the USN CC line right now and the AA is a joke at T7-8, not enough damage to discourage a strike and not enough range to cover anyone.

Yeah, most ships can't swing about willy nilly to begin with, and the ones that actually can can't risk it if they happen to you know have to angle against incoming fire. There is also islands to hit. Oh and 2 torp hits is as bad as a crit or 2 except it comes with flooding so god forbid you've been on fire recently or there might be dive bombers incoming. Just had a another nice salty match 153 hits in my Donskoi, all HE 1 fire 1486 fire damage. I think that BB anti fire skill bloody works!!! Because the fight for CC survival was already to easy!!! Silly wargaming balancing.

Next load of salt, T10 CVs in a T8 BB. There is just zero counterplay, nothing you can do at all but hope you aren't next. I took a full strike from a midway, I shot down 2 planes for my entire health pool in trade. I had a full AA build and my double fighters up. You cannot run and you cannot hide, just wait to die. I wouldn't moan so much if there were a few more AA cruisers around but if you have 1 a match you are lucky and lets face it a BB shouldn't be back with the Moskova at 20km! Oh and what the hell is the point of cyclone timers when they are about as accurate as a blind man in an archery contest? Time your BB advance to the second>? no get stuffed says wargaming sit in the open for full minute to learn we lie to players for fun!

I'm just hitting the New Orleans, I have 100% loss rate so far, doing the same in the NC I just got too. It's not like I'm new to T10 MM I have lots of higher tier ships. I just think the New Orleans isn't even a good all rounder, she is bad at everything. I get looked at by any ship and I die, I get out gunned by dds (admittedly is was a Kabab), out ranged by everything and the 9km radar is about as useful as a blow up dart board because getting that close to a cap is death. She is slow and not to quick in the turn either. I much prefer the pensacola. Some of you seem to have come to terms with her, I just don't know where to be position wise. If I get close enough to hit something I'm first target and dead too quick. Would love some help. Cheers

Not sure if you are joking or not in about the new orleans? I'm still trying to figure her out I guess. I liked the pensa in the end, not the worst stats. Needless to say not having the same luck in the T 8 version. I just had a game in my belfast to try and cheer me up, we had a ranger with a 26% win rate in CVS, guess how that match went lol. 62.79% 47,774 1,707 1.3 1.0 1.0 26% 34% 0% 1,542

And I return dragging another load of salt from the mines. Thanks to the weekend exp buff I manage to get both the NC and the New Orleans. I have lost 4 straight matches in both, kitting them out with all my flags and everything. All but one of the matches I was bottom tier. The one I was top tier in was in the New Orleans, and my team did 1 of 2 things for the first 8 minutes of the match, sit still or turn around and run away from the caps. I don't mind being bottom tier, what I mind is the bad teams that seem to come with them, I play a support role in a bottom tier game, how can I do that with a team that doesn't play the game, sitting behind islands and running before they even see a cap. There are very few circumstances where a New Orleans should go first, but I seem to be there all the time as if my team takes the funny big step backwards. The other sting in the tail is consumables, flags and camo etc. I would like a refund on those when I get dumped into Ocean against Yamatos when I have 14km range and nowhere to hide.

So have we all agreed the ognevoi is rubbish? The torps at the worst dd torps at teir 8, the detection is good but I'd never want to get that close to a dd anyways since they can all outgun you at that range? I'm putting question marks in because I'm simply not sure if she is as bad as I think or if I'm just missing something. Can anyone englighten me on her?

Feed back ? sure. It's miserable, your game with this game mode, makes me miserable. I have a belfast and it's still miserable. Even when I win the matches are boring, slow and painful. The heady mix of smoke and torps makes me want to vomit. For reference I enjoyed last season, in a farragut and then my benson. I would have got higher than rank 15 for sure if I hadn't only just earned the benson to compete at the higher ranks just as the season ended. This season? I refer you back to the vomit. More constructive you say? Well I don't actually think radar is a big issue, it's very easy to keep these ccs 8.8km away with a good BB camping at the back. The problem is the torps, you simply can't go forward, reposition or pull round islands with more tops than any ship in the game can pump out coming at you from Shiratsuyu's. Honestly I think ranked as it is will never be a fun game mode for most people, the outcomes rely too heavily on each player because of the few players, this is even more so with cvs. There is nothing more frustrating than watching your hard work come to nothing because of another individual. The model itself is more about punishment than reward, a foolish misstep in design might I add.

My favorite new salt mine, people that split the party in ranked. So the match starts and you pick a point to fight over, together right there in chat, you can see the big capital A or B right there. You start the fight, commit hard to win then your BBs at the back split off and decide to go get the free cap for the exp in the hopes of keeping their star instead of winning. Half the team that committed to the plan die and the match is lost. I get that you can't have perfect cooperation with strangers and probably a lot of people that speak different languages but THE rule of ranked is stick together isn't it? I'm glad this game is still in beta, at least technically. There is some work to do :S.

I hope you aren't accusing me of BB salt, mine is pure bread DD and CC salt, noble and pure. That said I just got deleted in my scharnhorst by a T9 CV. I wouldn't be salty but I got a suicide spawn out on my own with no cover. It wasn't even a minutes work for him . Honestly I can't remember the last time I survived a top tier CV attack.Up at T9 and T10 there seems to be know escape unless you're covered on both sides by AA ccs, which are bloody rare nowadays and can't really roll with a fleet without being BB deleted. Any tips on CV evasion? Oh and I really hate being spotted by a plane I can't see. How are you ment to respond to that? Turn and hope you pick the right direction?

Another key factor that helps the Belfast and all CCs in ranked is that there are less players total, all much more focused usually on one point. It makes positioning and tracking where your threats are much easier in the heat of battle. It's much easier to dodge incoming from one direction instead of 3 like a usual random match. This is why players like to hug map edges and avoid points in random battles, easier to manage. A well played Belfast can only really be caught out when an escape route out of smoke is cut off, this is much harder to do with less ships, all clustered much closer together than usual ranked play. As for the other side of the coin, BBs have a less target rich environment and being slower makes them more vulnerable to position based attacks and less effective at flanking themselves. Flamu points this out in his Belfast vid a little, mentioning that BB players tend not to hold position, feeling that if they aren't hammering shells into something they aren't doing their job. Thus throwing away winning positions.

Wow you're totally right, I meant the Dmitry Donskoi, proper brain fart shortening to DM, clearly that's the des moines. Sorry for the mistake. Hopefully a tier 9 russian CC is more thread related.

I've just got into the DM, having real trouble with it. Why is it so much more difficult than the chappy? It's less maneuverable than a BB, squishier than a DD and if you get anywhere near a DD to use radar you are going to have a real hard time with torps. As far as I can tell it's a long range HE spammer against BBS, but every BB I meet outguns me in both range and damage. So could someone give me clues?

I hate it too, I have 210 det flags and so I've been blown up 21 ish times taking into account the ones I've used and the ones I may have won in other ways. I have caused a detonation once, it was on a 2k hp aoba. Screw this mechanic, even if it doesn't ruin games what about all the flags and camos people pay for that get wasted by one lucky shot? I lose dragon flags and papa papas to this for gods sake.