Thracen

Here's and idea, one of the problems with balancing cvs is because the game impact of unicum vs potatoes in match ups is ********** disgusting. How about before you get to load up a random in a cv north of t5 you have to complete tutorials/challenges that prove you aren't a complete and total window licker! Give credits flags rewards whatever to make it worthwhile and link anyone that can't do it to a forum or youtube vid in the hopes they can spark that half a brain cell. Then you don't have to balance a ship for the window lovers and the unicums at the same time and I get CVs in my matches that realise they aren't damn airfields and will loiter over a dd after a strike to spot it and not f off leaving a shima unspotted with his torps reloaded!!! Seriously, it was like he wanted us to die, but never put down to malice that can be explained by idiocy. Of Course I asked him to spot/ loiter before he struck but english might not even be the right language if he even reads chat. HA, and people think this is a team game.

Guys, it's map design and spawning that are the right knobs to turn for this. The problem cruisers have is multiple battleships engaging from every flank at stupid ranges. Spawn them in smaller groups put more islands in the way to stop 22km support fire from map edges and spawns and you get yourself a ball game without any of the BB Babies even realising whats happend. Guess what, this stops smoke camping because of limited fire lines, and helps dds get good torps off. Obviously a maze is going to be a bit impractical/stupid but in terms of degrees a few more clicks in this direction could be great for everyone. Multiple small engagements with opportunities to break contact until you get forced from cover and die for cowardice. It could be really fun, let's face it this game is at it's best around the 9-12 minute mark, small focuses engagements around points and cover, build the maps and spawns so this time is from 6-12 minutes and we're in for a blast.

Frankly the trashcan can only really doge tank 1 (poorly aiming ideally) ship at a time unlike the kebab, the chances of doing that early game are slim to none due to ship numbers and time to position, so I play in or near the cap, but very, very defensively. It encourages your ships to come up, gives you something to do in the early dead time matches tend to have and stops the reports for playing (sensibly) like a cruiser. But this is all a little off topic, my point was that Capping is not the be all and end all in the first 5 minutes as long as you can keep your enemies off the caps.

So I've had a string of games over the last week where we have 2 dds and they spawned right next to each other, this turns out to be a handy function of divisions. However this causes problems and when your only dds are "paired up" it's a strong indicator of a loss. Firstly you are nearly always down a cap from the start Secondly the value of torps and spotting of two dds overlap, at best you get 1.5 dds worth of value, this includes a lessened threat of torps as they all come along a similar line of attack Thirdly, naturally these dds alternate smokes and share, meaning your dds aren't ever really spotting for you and are very static in their positioning Fourthly, they tend to die together, to the same radar, hydro or torp spread, eggs in one basket etc. Obviously splitting them up would be counterproductive and hurt their enjoyment of the game, so this just seems to be something we have to live with. Has anyone else experienced this or have I just been unlucky?

Wow there buddy, I don't like the trashcan either, however it does have better concealment than cruisers and it has smoke, it is also exceedingly fast. I also agree that it is a terrible DD, but people do expect it to behave like a dd so I treat it thusly: Race to cap, smoke or hide in cover bow/stern on for torp avoidance and shoot at anything you see, race out throwing rounds into the cap for defense flags, you also end up spotting all the torps that get flung through a cap. By this time a reasonable team would be up at the point to radar or otherwise disrupt, ofcourse bad teams might not but you've done your part. What I meant was that people forget that shooting into a cap stops people from taking it.

My point is that it inhibits team play by dumping ships which need escorts without them while positioning them directly opposite DDs without anything in between to stop them. As a BB without cc or dd cover facing a dd with any sort of support in the first 5 minutes you are a target and nothing more. Even to a trashcan, and yes I agree it's not a capper, but it does actually disrupt capping well which is something people tend to forget in all ships, that it's ok not to cap as long as your enemy does not either. Have none of you guys had terrible spawns? imagine they are more common and worse because of a triple dd divions of IJN boats all stacked on 1 corner. leaving at least 2 free to roam and cap and cause chaos.

You guys are forgetting about the BBs and CCs that are stuck on the other side of the map without a screen, The CCs get out spotted by a dd and shot at by bbs then they get to move in for the BB torp fest. If you spawn on the side of the map without a dd you are going to have a much tougher game and you are instantly on the back foot. Saying DDs can work well together is all well and good (and true) but you lose so much in terms of spotting, cover and smoke. Ships that need a screen early game before the firepower thins get screwed and no amount of dd duo success is going to make up for the ships that never had a chance to strut their stuff before being perma spotted without any counter or time to reach cover (bad spawn locations and map design are part of this problem I think).

With the added bonus of looking like you meant too, it's like shame camo.

Yep just had another problem, all our 3 dds were in a division, their 3 dds were not, because of the spawn system I had to go all the way across the map in my slow BB with no screening being chased by a shima until I Obviously died. They capped 2 points, we capped 1. exactly how the spawn suggested it would turn out. This is wrong man, like seriously. Messing with spawns messes with matches. It's a real problem.

Fastest ships to die in a game, radar cruisers. Imho. They are all fragile but the Moskva, and if you don't see her coming you deserve to get hit with her radar, Still only 11ish Km range if she is close enough to spot you she will be in a vulnerable position, especially early game and almost certainly not in a position to shoot you herself, too risky. Spot them, don't go into the cap to give away your location and watch your crit hungry BBs charge for the juicy morsel you're spotting. Stay on the edge of detection range so you can pop out of his radar range if need be. Other methods include baiting radar by hitting a cap with a planned route that would have you detected by radar but totally safe from fire due to cover. People need to understand that Caps are not the be all and end all in the first 5 minutes of the game, they are almost never worth losing a ship over that early. You can contest caps from 20km for christs sake as long as you have spotting. I've got to say I don't like the dd meta at the moment, ap bb pens (something the gearing suffers the worst from) and never feeling like a threat unlike CCs and BBs. However DDs still win games, if only through spotting, you out spot russian dds so just don't fire yourself and feed them to your CCs, very few IJN dds out spot you, they are more fragile, slower, less agile and have worse guns at their detection range. They tend to sniff around flanks to torp the side of a force, spot them when they are out of position and kill them. If they are close to support, great, they are now useless, you can scout all their torps that would be bow on anyways. Usually they get frustrated and you can do as above when they reposition. Top tier DDs are 90% prey and 10% predator. When they do strike it's only when cornered or they have set their trap perfectly and everything is in your favour. Not an easy or fun playstyle for most but an effective one for the team, if not for your own exp and credits.

He has a point, the fastest ships, (the dds), charge ahead spot everything because none of the bots have camo giving a concealment advantage to like for like, then proceed to torp/ smoke the living hell out of everything be before the BBs or even the cruisers have their boots one. I know because I do it, popping in for missions or easy daily win bonuses on ships I hate playing in randoms. Certain maps are even worse due to island cover. Operations are great for t5-6 but let's face it the tastier ships are north of them and you are stuck with going into coops knowing you'll have very little to do with your toy. I'm not a coop player but lots of people are and giving them a place where they can play the ships they earn ( and pay for) where they can actually use their ships as intended is a good idea. If they are willing to pay the high credit costs for the privilege I think it's only fair to give them a good experience. Medium term I suspect this will be solved by higher tier operations, which I very much look forward too, however I'm not sure how wargaming will address the issue of letting people grind higher tiers effectively without PVP, something they've actively avoided with the PVE systems so far. This is actually worth discussing, I know the presentation wasn't great but that doesn't change the issue.

Played for a year, before this patch I had 1 crash. Had two in 2 days on the new patch. Taking a break till the next patch now the gamescom bonuses are over. I figure they'll iron out the bugs and put a nice fun event in to launch the BBs.

Sonar, no. Radar yes. The 50 second plus radars with the mod are stupid.

Buff the weaker T8s, I know it's not ideal but there are advantages to being bottom tier. Learning to play more conservatively behind your strong ships is a must. It's why lots of T8-10 players get frustrated, they need the big boys to do their job in these games and often they don't.

These are the first things I think needs addressing with CVs in the random Queue. AA ships are not balanced in the MM, the matchmaker can and has put together teams with CVs in them with no strong AA bubbles against Top Tier CVs. That simply cannot happen, especially since some CV load outs have no fighters. I would give CVs +- 1 MM to flatten their potential impact, both OP can't be stopped games with unicum commanders and the new player can't do crap against top tier AA ones. I would like there to be a separate Queue where players will expect CVs, (this can already be done with CV divisions). Knowing you will face a CV when the normal queue is only what about 1/3rd chance, will allow people to pick the suitable ships and the requisite builds. Frankly build flexibility needs to be addressed, 450DB for a respec to deal with cvs is not practical or player friendly. Most of these are fast easy changes, but on the whole AA really needs rebalancing with CVs from the ground up.

Yep I firmly agree with the original post. Companies must get positive feedback from correcting mistakes and listening to customers otherwise they are damned if they do or damned if they don't. Please keep working hard wargaming:D.

Dear god please MM radar, just had to play a ognevoi against a new orleans a moskva and a donskoi it took me 10 minutes to get on cap, they had a bloody midway as well to make like extra fun. Seriously make a statement on this please, I'd like to know if this is a mistake or something you think is balanced?

Read this. If you don't think you sound like an elitist rear orifice you have zero self awareness. Then read this again :D.

My point was you can't plan for the length of radar if it changes based on modules not ships. 50 seconds gives time for a CV to come along whatever cover you are in and lets other ships close the gap as you have to cower in cover. 50 seconds is unreasonable, especially when you can't tell what you're dealing with.

i've got to say I think the radar mod is ridiculous. How are a 30 second radar and a 50 second radar balanced when they can be on the same ship? Radar lasting that long is absurd. DDs are the second rarest class and the most important for the game, in terms of spotting, screening and capping. This bull poop will make them rarer, you don't even know how long the radar will last you just have to run like your hair is on fire!

You're right I know I can't change his mind, but when he put words in my mouth like this it's really obnoxious. We were talking about CVs, CVs are probably only in a 3rd of matches. If the game was built around CVs to balance each match by default those 2/3rds are not the game. What can I say when someone thinks 2/3rds of the matches played are not the game? :S. I don't think I implied any of these things, stop painting me as someone that thinks everything else in this game is perfect with absolutely no reason. What I did imply is that I feel matches are better balanced and more fun without CVs and I think the majority of the player base agrees with me, on the forum and even more so in the masses of players that don't frequent the message board. As for releasing premium CVs, they've all come out to various forms of controversy far more than any other ship type released. They will do the minimum too the class balance as a whole and keep selling them as you well know. I watched the Kaga deletion compilations, and the enterprise ones with those poor german BBs and I watched a community contributor get tossed of the program for saying the Graf was bad, so did the king of the hill CV player. Seriously holding these premiums up as a shining example of Wargaming intending to fix CV balance is lunacy. You're highlighting all the problems with CVs and multiple attempts of wargaming screwing them up. LOL Bye everyone, I'm going to carry on up the high road *Edited

Elazer, you're dreaming of days gone by my friend. Beta testers are a different bread as you well know.There is a big difference between losing a match because of bad player and dying without gaining exp or creds because of a bad player. There aren't enough CV players to have them in every match, because they are poorly designed and not fun to play. Calling 2/3rds of matches "not the game" and unbalanced is silly. It is the game, the majority of it in fact. I'll say it again, this is not representative of my thoughts or how I play the game. I'm done. I know how the game is now, you want it to go back in time. I know that will never happen because wargaming needs to cater to the masses to be profitable and survive. Fastest way to kill a game like this is long queue times due to declining players. they nerfed CVs because that would have happened. I'm more likely to get my way than you are yours, convincing you is a waste of my time :D.

lol I laugh when people say "fire the incompetent staff", any half decent grunt working on this stuff would have standards and know it wasn't ready. Problem was his bosses told them to put it out the door. Bosses don't get sacked, they fail upwards or go find something better to do. Wargaming has got big enough for managers and marketing departments to be leading decision making. It's why they keep making all these mistakes, their corporate structure is haphazard and full of people without the right experience.

I think a CV Q and a non CV Q would be great, people would turn up with the right builds and the right mindset to handle a CV. More consistent ship selection would allow for better balance. Or simply decide the game is better without them and let them die out in random leaving them free to roam in co op and ranked. It would also show that no one ever wants to be in an IJN dd when a CV is around and wargaming might notice that that poop is bananas. Ha, after pigs fly to the moon and file my taxes!

Ok even if all random teams of 12 played together and coordinated against CV attacks they would still be an absolute excrement show. Do you re balance CVs to go against 12 AA bubbles? What happens when you get a game with 3 Des Moines and a couple of Moskvas? You can't balance a CV to face that sort of AA then be up against T8 full of IJN CCs. No hope sir no hope there at all. I personally think that it's pretty damn dream like of you to think that random groups of 12 players speaking a dozen different languages all with different ships with different specs and different game experience would all work well enough together consistently enough to balance a ship based on it? Tashkent is a dd with 8.2km with a module and concealment skills, and I can't fly over islands on approaches in my tashkent. Building a multiplayer game where you get spanked your team's screw ups is not a good idea. Least fun experience in the game? Probably getting second row torpedoed. Making CVs a mechanic for people to shout at each other over is not a good idea. I told you what's fun about dealing with BBs, I'm not going to continue if you aren't really listening. Oh and try and remember that you agree that the system is broken. I have a practical and instant solution, you have a pie in the sky dream world where wargaming listens to its players and promptly fixes things. I just watched a review of the Zeppelin by the King of the Sea CV player, he mentions that the russians make the big decisions and the russian player base plays CV less than we do. They do not care about CVs because the vast majority of players don't, why keep them around for the 1% of players that learn to beat the rest over the head with it arbitrarily based on team cohesion, make up and ship choice. 3 things you should absolutely not punish a player base for by the way, RNG, other people's actions and player agency. P.S. Please get this idea out of your head that I play as a crazed solo warrior out on the flanks doing nothing for my team, you have no basis for it and I don't play that way. I radar caps and smoke up teammates and even tank in my BBs in forward positions just like everyone else that isn't a complete potato. I don't accuse you of being a CV seal clubber or a super unicum CV elitist, because I have no evidence of such things and how you play the game has no relevance.