Thracen

You mistake role for match influence, oh and there are entire strats based around winning dota games without carries, rat dota, and early fight lineups stop those carries from ever getting online. A tank is not a class, my initial point actually said these comparisons are stupid for these reasons, apples an oranges etc. Also you mention medics, a class that only has value as part of a team, CVs can operate completely independent of a team often picked by unicums because they can win with a field full of potatoes in front of them. The CV is restricted below T6 to auto drops and in the higher tiers by there only ever being 1 in a match. CVs get +-0 in their match making. Why is this the case? IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO INFLUENTIAL for gods sake how is this not glaringly obvious. All these bloody rules to try and curtail their influence wargaming makes my point for me.

I mean absolutely no offence by this, this is not the first time I have thought this, but are you perhaps not a native english speaker? There is a difference between role and influence, different roles in a team can have similar levels of influence on match outcome correct? DDs spot as part of their role BBs tank as part of their role why should a dds spotting be more important than a BBs tanking? The problem with CVS is their role is everyone else's role too. CVS: Spot, counter dds, counter BBs and counter most cruisers, they are the best ships to decap, ignore terrain and are by far the most flexible ship due to their speed. They are the best at stacking DOT damage, they are the best are alpha strikes. They have the highest skill cap and the highest skill ceiling. A unicum CV player has no counter save any other unicum CV player, and that's only if they haven't gone for a strike package. Oh and before you say this is the same for dds, no it is not, nor for any other ship. Unicums in other ships can get hunted, and suppressed and can be destroyed to stop their match influence. A CV is almost always the last ship on the team to die, and in terms of strike packages each set of planes must be completely deleted 3 times over? Can you imagine if a DD has 3 respawns? They are too powerful, have too much influence and they have no active counter, CV planes cannot be hunted, they cannot be cornered or chased. CVs are immune to nearly every balancing mechanic in the game.

A. I'm with you. B. I get the flavour argument I do, and the build variety is a strong one as well, problem is you sacrifice so much if you end up in a game without a CV. I don't mind going 1v1 with a cv in terms of being struck, problem is in a CC a CV spots me, this can be death in itself, his torps force me to decide which i die too, his torps or his BBs broadside. This is simply imbalanced, IJN ccs are played with stealth in mind, scaring dds of caps and HE spamming BBs, 1 aircraft makes these ships impossible to play. This is the same sory with IJN dds This is untenable in my eyes. C. Really haven't, I have seen very effective fighter strafes but no Cleveland like sky clearances beyond t6. highest average plane kills is the minotaur with 4 per match, obviously this doesn't take into account the lack of CVs in a fight but it also includes all the spotter planes from other ships. I get struck very often because I play lots of t8s and IJN ccs. I'm lucky to take 8 planes with me in a full AA build before dieing.

taking into account player skill, no not really We're talking about individual class influence, this is an entirely different issue? taking all the games in the series into account the classes were well balanced, certainly in terms of influence to CVs and say CCs in wow. Load outs, titan choices and card choices effectively give a multi class system anywho. No need to apologise, the game still fits the basic criteria.

Right, team fortress 2, Dota 2, league of legends, battlefield, every single one since 1942, a personal fav. The division, destiny 2, the titanfall's. All have classes, none of those classes have any hope of the consistent win rates achievable by by the best CVs and the loss rate of the worst CVs. Frankly I think it's absurd comparing such things but you needed an answer. Right help me here, the only answers I've heard for the fun of playing against at t10 have been "being avoided in a AA cruiser" and "forcing team play, ships grouping together and pushing aggressively". I think it's fair to say the former is an argument but not a strong indication of positive CV interaction and I've have never seen evidence of the second one first hand in 4k matches. Please if you could pick out the ones I've missed I will listen, but so far I find these 2 less than convincing.

41 people have voted that they are fun so far and not a single argument explaining why? I'm not impressed.

Categorically wrong, CVs punish ships that move forward first because they are the first spotted and most likely to have distance from their camping brethren at the back. Never seen a dd get struck then? I think there are 2 ships in the whole game that can actually do this and require 19pt captains and compromised ship builds to do this. IJN cruisers meant to be stealthy, cannot do this and die to spotting without shooting down a single aircraft. 4k games and never saw this happen. The New orleans and pensacola AA are terrible and I have the balti too and I never get more than a dozen plane kills a game despite chasing them at risk to my ship. CV planes at high tiers are too fast to keep loose formations against. I find the game is more balanced without CVs just ask IJN dds. Rewards for plane kills are pitiful just ask current CVs that dominated games kill 30 plus aircraft and still come 5th on the team table. You are right in that AA cruisers are rare, because they suck and are utterly unrewarded and also happen to be the preferred class to blow up for BBs, often dead before the second strike from a CV. Cvs have too much power because they can strike the entire map, they can pick their perfect targets and wait for the imperfect targets to have their AA stripped from them. No other class can poop on their perfect targets so effortlessly, they scout for themselves too, for all your talk of team play the most solo class their is is a CV. This is a particularly large pile of horse hockey, CV planes are the fastest thing in the game, you cannot position against a potential CV strike and engage the enemy effectively. Playing as if a CV can hit you at any moment is impossible without sacrificing so many other aspects of the game you will lose. Answer this one question: BBs should be out in the open tanking, CCs, especially AA ones, cannot, not without tanking for their BBs :S. How are these ships meant to cover each other when they are played ENTIRELY differently? Honestly I get the impression all these CV supporters are dreaming of a bygone CBT when BBs didn't delete cruisers in a single shot and BBs didn't sit at 18km plus and still top the scoreboard.

Honestly the counter play is not fun! huddling and hoping your AA ships position well is not strategy. Communication is either unreliable or impossible considering language barriers. I main CCs with AA in mind and I get almost no plane kills and get ruined by T8 CVs in my ibuki, they just trigger my AA with the loss of 2 or 3 planes then come back and end my game if I haven't been blown to hell by being perma spotted from outside my AA range. They are broken as hell and ruin my games and I'm an average player that has spent months on this forum and multiple topics trying to figure out how to play against them and I get ruined every blood time because even if they don't come for me first they pick of my support and get to me in the end and by that time the game is lost anyways. Yep, I'm salty and crying but every time I lose to a CV I look up their stats and vomit at how broken this is.

OK you want an answer, here is a game http://www.naturalselection2.com/ it was based on asymmetric play. It failed because your success or failure relied too much on 1 player. They built in a game mode to exclude commanders and this mode was more popular. Nobody is saying every class should have an equal say in a victory or a loss, it would be nice to have asymmetric classes that were perfectly balanced like that but it is not practical. However CVs have way to much say, the equivalent of multiple ships being played well or piloted by potatoes. Nobody wants to spend their camos and flags on a 20 minutes loss you had zero say in. You don't I don't nobody does however this is what is happening more often that it should. Seriously there are CV mains out there with 30% win rates and 80% plus win rates. A better than average player wants a better chance of victory in proportion with his skill. Wins and losses should not be decided by 1 player.

Name 3 triple A games comparable enough to world of warships to serve as an example of balance for world of warships? This is a stupid question, like your mentioned question it won't get answered instead being ignored for the pointless red herring that it is. You might as well reference checkers for pawn balancing in chess.

Dude, calm down, oh and for everyone else let's ditch the stat shaming please. Frankly I still stand by the fact that AA cruisers are not stripping the sky of aircraft, any player worth his salt has last know position turned on and will scout his strikes if there was a baltimore or even an unspotted minotaur on the team list. I've just got to the des moines with 0 free exp spent, I have never once earned a clear sky in the line or even take down more than 12 planes in a match. Oh and I also think that referencing the CBT is not constructive. It sounds like a different game entirely at this point, most people here have no experience of it and god know that the player base standard has dropped dramatically. This game needs to be balanced for the players it has not the top 5% that have been playing for 3 years. No amount of player education will help further more it's clear that wargaming has no interest in improving the base line of players. Probably because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Back on topic. We're now on page two and the best argument for T10 CVs being fun to play against is when they f up hugely (which in my experience almost never happens) or the smug sense of satisfaction of CVs avoiding you all game. When the best thing about a class is that you never interact with them then that's some screwed up game design right there. Honestly this game is either balanced with CVs or without, it cannot be both and since CV number make it impossible for them to be in every match without screwing the Qs, well it's making me miserable in the matches where they turn up. Even when they avoid me in my des moines I see our dd get deleted and our CVs planes haven't even taken off yet and I know I've just lost in the first 5 minutes. This scenario happens all to often. How can you CV nuts defend being in matches like this as anything other than miserable?

come now, I think you understood my point was that CVs encourage more defensive and turtle like play.

Agreed that's why I'm asking, I for one tend not to enjoy "doing nothing" for no reward other than the possibility of having switched ad CVs potential target, while sacrificing my own positioning and survivability and damage potential. You do realise that camping in large groups is so common place in this game that its been driving forum posts and even patch changes for ages? I feel I should also say that I'm not calling for nerfs or buffs or their removal in this thread. I want to know if people find them fun to play against or not and how they find them fun to fight because in my DDs and cruisers I just find them match ruining for their spotting alone.

This only happens if you are against, a very bad cv. It's never happened to me above tier 6. It's easy to do but one of the ships in the group suffers for it if they aren't in their ideal range, a baltimore and a yamato are sailing together, you end up with the baltimore tanking for the yamato! seriously in most cases this doesn't work if you are getting shot at. Thats if you build for it with 19pt captains, most dont and top tier players recommend you dont since cvs are rare. Oh and lets not forget that AA modules get destroyed during games and a good CV can strike through almost any AA for a cost. Oh and the best AA ships are nearly always the most fragile and die first. This, this makes no sense to me, the team play of which is speak is huddling together and turtling? this is what I hate, playing for 10 minutes in my spawn waiting for my AA cover to be brave enough to come out from behind and island. Honestly I know you are not but it feels like trolling when you post such things.

Yep, there are CV players with 80% plus win rates, and there are players down in the 30s since AA defense is such a passive mechanic there is NOTHING a player can do to compensate. About 1 in 10 games just get ruined by these ships.

frankly I can deal with too many BBs, what I can't counter with playstyle is top tier CVs. If you are in a dd or a cc you can expect to be perma spotted and wiff all your torps. If you are in a BB and you're des moines gets detonated, (happend today, 1 round instant death, poor chap) all that team play and positioning goes bye bye and you are food. CVs planes are too mobile and stealthy to play against without lemming lumping. (Which imho is the worst way a match can play out). I hate CVs with a passion, they bring nothing to the game but extra flavour, mechanically they are just pain for everyone else. I have a few AA rigged ships, and I have never got a clear skies, because any CV that isn't drooling onto the keyboard will avoid you, and even if you protect your BBs it means you sacrifice your own fighting position, because a T10 BB and a T9 CC should never be in the same place on the map, 1 ship is sacrificing his effectiveness.

Right. I've had enough. Wargaming thinks 1dd vs 2dds is fair and balanced due to the match outcomes. Right or wrong statistically in terms of winrate this is FRIGHTENINGLY! ignorant of actual game play. Biggest problem in wow? Probably camping BBs, biggest thing that stops teams going forward? Lack of spotting. 2 dds can spot 60-70% of the map, 1 dd well yeah half that. How on earth is that fair and balanced matchmaking? It instantly gives a team, spotting, capping and positioning advantages! This is most acutely felt in smoke CCs, a class that cannot spot for themselves, how on earth is a smoke cruiser meant to shoot something when he can't see anything to shoot? DDs tend to hide in their smoke, smoke ccs have to hide in their smoke so game get spotted out by the BB firing 20km salvos. This is absolutely the worst type of game to have. Have minimum 2 dds a team, equal class and radar assignment and properly reward spotting for heaven's sake! I have over 3k games over a year of play never once have I thought that spotting gave me exp or credits, I have no idea how spotting is taken into account in terms of rewards. Make a clear incentive please! This is the yamamoto DD missions week, there are still not enough dds because the class is poorly played and understood, in part because you haven't got spotting right! Fix it please! Am I a ranting loon or is better spotting rewards and mechanics a cog worth turning for game balance? Just a quick addendum: Thought I'd highlight that this, like everything else in this game effects ccs the worst, they need to know their threats or they die and now they get out spotted by every ship class having a teammate spot is literally life and death.

I agree suiciding dds is common, but suiciding ships in all classes happen, it just is more noticeable for dds because they can die before you get into a fight so you aren't distracted. Lets face it, nearly half the deaths in any given match are down to play error right? Having more than 1 dd a side and making the numbers even gives each team the best chance to have a dd that allows the game to actually function as designed. And yes, I believe the "problem" with dds I mentioned earlier is the lack of them in the MM even with current dd centric missions. I thought it was obviously that too many dds is not a current problem but of course now that you mention it, I have heard that from BB Babies.

I think it's telling that given the number of total games/experience in this thread, very few of us understand how the mechanic is rewarding players or even notice it making any sort of difference in exp and credit awards. DD population seems to be a problem, making the BB overpopulation worse, sorting out a way for players to learn and get rewarded for doing their job as a DD would help some of the biggest problems in the game right now. Instead they have gone with deepwater torps? Torps seemingly worse than normal torps, that explicitly tell players to do nothing but run off to flanks to torp battleships instead of capping, screening and spotting. I get why, they care about selling a "unique" line over gameplay. Honestly I'm sorry I even brought this up, we all know that changes are based on making money and the russian player base. EU is just the wallet they know they can ignore.

I like the idea of having visible instant feedback on spotting, would help teach people about the mechanic at least.

I tend to play a lot of CCs and actually find the zero games easier. I know that only a certain area of the map can be covered so if I see an enemy cap ticking I know where the dd is and where I can play without spotting risk. Something I picked up on this forum to lump both light and heavy cruisers together, not nato policy but people tend to get the drift most of the time. Honestly I don't know how they are looking at the statistics, I find it hard to believe it has little significance over match outcome. Everyone with a good understanding knows how important spotting is how having 0 spotting vs 1 spotting is balanced is beyond me. I think player skill, something often overlooked when it comes to mm, is probably fudging the figures. I too like a varied match pattern but the problem is without spotting you cannot position correctly. If you have no reasonably safe way to learn an enemy position often the best course of action is to stay back and camp with as many ships as possible. Exactly what nobody wants!

yep agreed, however what's to stop someone jumping in front of torps because the game is going badly and wants his dragon flag back? What's to stop divisions and clans doing the same. This is a less than simple problem.

Looks, great, I love the permanent camos they did for the T6's and super containers for t10s sounds fun with uber flags on top, nice.

Every game with a good kebab player in is an uphill battle, every game with a good CV player that isn't bottom tier is an uphill battle, every game in a cruiser is an uphill battle, every game in a bottom tier BB is an uphill battle, nearly every t8 game is an up tier uphill battle. Every tears of the desert epicenter match is terrible. Every patch seems to be a nerf for cruisers and a buff for BBs and nearly every line follows the same pattern. How many BBs have citadels left you can actually shoot above T8?, 1 line left the japanese, the ones designed to snipe and even the amagi has close range turtleback. There is a huge amount wrong with this game and it is getting worse not better, but anyone on the forum tends to be good enough to accept the unfairness and does their best to grind out the bad matches and seal club in the good ones. The next step is not getting frustrated when you top the table in every loss you have. Still not quite over that one.

You could, but it is by far the most necessary for cvs, they have the largest match impact among ships and the most to learn with the highest skill ceiling. Also they have the least transferable game knowledge, CCs DDs and even bbs have commonalities, CVs have almost none with the rest of the classes.