asalonen

Even after the nerf of 0.8.0.3 it's not completely useless, but just more difficult. Generally I can only hit the DD on the first run if I spotted him early due to the DD firing its guns. If I didn't hit or even didn't fire at him, I still saw where he was, and where he was heading and turning. So for the second run, even if I temporarily lose sight of the DD, I try anticipate where he went. I start the second run aiming where I expect him to be, before I see him, and surprisingly often it's close enough to eventually get him in the crosshair. He only had a handful of seconds, and many just keep going straight. It's definitely worth a try if he's low-health, capping, or you just don't have a better thing to do.

This is exactly my experience as well. Lexington at least manages just fine in T8-10 matches. However, it requires a much more conservative approach when you're bottom tier. It's common not to have feasible targets early in the battle. If you can't immediately attack anybody, then forget about it. Possibly look for the DD's instead, attack them if you can, but just spotting is fine. If their AA is too strong don't stay over them -- just updating the markers on the minimap is valuable. It may be the smartest thing to do. Just don't waste your planes early on, since they will be more valuable for the team as the battle wears on. There's no rush. In most battles the targets will emerge: somebody gets isolated, somebody is blown to hell, somebody on your team needs help in an engagement, a high-value target can be finished off. The opportunities will appear even when bottom tier, as long as you have conserved your planes. In its essence, CV gameplay to me is a continuous risk-versus-reward analysis. You're back to the carrier easily 20+ times in the course of a battle. Each time you need to choose what to take off with, and what you're going to do with it. Maintain map awareness and don't get fixated, since you can cover the whole map like nobody else. What's valuable for the team, and has acceptable risk attached to it? Make the wrong choices and you can be depleted 5 minutes into the battle. Keep making the right calls and you can turn battles around like nobody else. I feel that CV is the ultimate support class. Smart, game-winning play is often about thinking about the others.

...seems like a good thing to me, encouraging team play and punishing going solo -- especially if the ship in question is easily detected and attacked by a CV. Secondly, the fact that CV's can no longer snipe other CV's is by design. The reworked CV's are still very skill-sensitive, and can be very strong if played right. It's only a good thing that they cannot realistically shut down enemy CV's. If they could, the worse CV player would get frustrated and rage quit, and WG wants CV's to become and remain popular. Thirdly, about the damage. I have mostly experience with tiers 6 and 8 of the new CV's. If I look at ships in which I've done a lot of battles, in tier 8 my Lexington is second to only Richelieu in average damage. Likewise in tier 6, Ryujo and Ranger are close to Prinz Eitel and Dunkerque -- two BB's that I've been very comfortable in. In addition to the damage, in the CV's I can do a lot more than in the BB's. The point being, if the damage dealing potential would be increased, the CV's would easily be too decisive and simply OP. The challenge here is that they seem difficult to do well in. I'm not sure what could easily be done about that, when many players complain about them already being too "dumbed down". Tier 8, sorted by average damage: Tier 6, sorted by average damage:

Grinding the Midway with Lexington -- four games and four defeats, starting to get depressed:

Everything else equal, wider match making spread provides more variety. It's fun being top dog facing ships two tiers below yours, and with it comes the responsibility to carry. It's also fun being the underdog -- It just calls for a different style of play, conservative and sometimes borderline cowardly. I can't think of a single tier 8 that doesn't up-tier just fine against tier 10. Le Terrible is possibly the worst, but still manageable. This applies to Lexington as well -- I don't have Shokaku yet so I can't say if it's different. You just don't attack some of the ships with top AA. Early battle can be a challenge, but you can always wait it out. I've killed several Worcesters and Minotaurs in low health, trying to sneak away. In general I get a lot of T8-10 games with Lexington where I'm able to carry, and it's actually more rewarding than carrying T6-8 games. The only caveat for the match making is that it should be symmetric, regardless of your tier. If you face tier 10 in tier 8, you should have roughly equal chance of facing tier 6. This wasn't the case earlier, with an increasing portion of server population graduating to tier 10, so tier 8 were more of then than not cannon fodder for tier 10. However, the match making was changed in November or December, and it feels fine to me now.

I honestly have no clue what others consider fun... However, I personally like WoWS over many other games because its slow pace is less hectic and leaves more time for thinking. The battles have one team winning and one losing, and I do think winning is fun. It's also what the majority of other players have in mind, and I try to outsmart them. I get serious kicks if I feel like I really got it right. This also means playing the ships in an efficient way. If the carriers can do a lot things that the rest of the team can't, not utilizing that versatility, in the long run, means losing the battles for the team. If I don't like the way a class plays well, I just spend less time in them -- for me this has lately been cruisers.

I'm wondering if you might be fixated with the damage average, and if it might also harm your play after the rework. I didn't play the RTS carriers, but after 0.8.0 I've played them a lot -- 126 randoms to be exact. I'm currently playing Lexington in the USN line and getting Shokaku very soon in the IJN line. I'm getting somewhat lower average damage than in the BB's of the same tiers. On the other hand, the average frags are a bit higher. The lowish number of games make the numbers a bit meh, but they're in line with how the games feel. The CV's struggle dealing a lot of raw damage, but you can do a whole lot other than that. You can spot like nobody else on your team (also after 0.8.0.3), and finish off low-health ships like nobody else on your team. As a rule, I would consider that your first priority. 0.8.0.3 made it a lot harder to sink good DD players - - and rightfully so -- but you can still spot them so that somebody else on your team gets the kill. TL;DR: Forget about the damage, forget about whatever you did in RTS carriers, and get obsessed about win rate, and how to improve it with what you now have at hand.

Was trying out 0.8.0.3 with the Lexington. I never managed to reach 3000 base XP before, but this game... It possibly helped a bit that the Ryujo in our team disconnected, so he didn't fight for the same targets, and on the other hand I just barely managed to deal with them alone. Also, I was damn near sunk by the red Nelson when I was pushing to a more forward location, so that I could launch squadrons more frequently.

First Kraken in a CV, blessed by match making where the reds could do exactly two things about it: jack and *hit. Enemy Kiev did everything right as far as I could tell, High Caliber, Witherer, three caps, and I actually felt sorry for the guy when I pulled the trigger.

Every game has the same number of CV's on both sides. Half of the CV's win the battle and the other half loses, so they'll end up near 50 % for the whole server population. If one is higher than the other in the same tier, it indicates a lower skill floor -- the average dude does better with it. That's why it's interesting to check the win rates of for example top 25 % or top 10 %. It tells you what sort of potential the ships have if you really invest into it. Currently all CV's can influence games a lot, but they're just very skill sensitive. IJN CV's are somewhat tricker because the AP bombs are more difficult to use efficiently.

Indeed. The only thing they are not particularly good at is dealing a lot of alpha damage, and this seems to be the main gripe for the people asking for a buff. The best alpha damage are the AP bombs, which are also the trickiest to master. It's the ultimate support class, but it's all too easy to forget this. My gut feeling is that in most games, including the ones where my CV is bottom tier, there's a whole lot I can do to help the team. Spot, harrass, finish off the low-health targets trying to run away, put a fire or flooding on a target that just repaired. All this is usually easy to achieve, and the main challenge is to focus, maintain map awareness, not get fixated, and keep choosing the right cause of action again and again. Like you say there's very little RNG, and also very limited counterplay. You can usually keep the show going for most of the match. When bottom tier you just need to be more careful to conserve your planes.

You look at the top players to check if the skill ceiling's OK. If CV's can achieve higher win rates than any other class, even with everybody and their dog now running AA builds, you can be certain that it's relevant for WG.

They are exactly figures from EU server, the top 10 % as I said in my post. They're still the same, all between 72 and 76 %, with the IJN CV a bit higher in all tiers. You can argue that I'm cherry-picking my data to suit my argument, or that the data doesn't matter, but WG will still do the any buffs or nerfs based on it.

I just happen to play in a division a lot, and since the release of 0.8.0 we've always had a CV in the division. They're fun. The problem is that CV's seem able to carry games like no other class. This applies to all eight of them, both USN and IJN, all tiers -- I put some stats in the other thread. This is just like before rework but for different reasons. The key difference is that at least the opposing CV can still do his thing to his ability for most of the match. Overall I think the current patch and hotfix are good. The CV's are fun to play, easy to get into if you play other ships, and likely remain popular. But the OP was asking for an urgent buff, and I just think it's unlikely to happen. They're all already very strong.

This is all true. I brought up a particular player only because his performance seems to suggest that there's a serious balance problem. Also, my division buddies and I just haven't been winning like this before. We're solid players but definitely not spectacular, and now with a reworked CV in the division we seem to average 70 % or so. Something feels off. I'm not sure how it should be fixed. I don't think the reworked CV's are too easy, but they seem to have excessive potential. I'm sure WG sees the numbers and acts accordingly, meaning no buffs. Finally, in my experience both lines share the same fundamental issue. IJN line is possibly more difficult to master because the AP bombs are trickier to use, but the huge potential is still there.

If anything, I would expect CV's to be nerfed across the tiers within a month or two. They are too strong. I didn't play the CV's in public test at all, so I started from zero when 0.8.0 was released. I had some initial struggles in the Hosho before I got my CV *hit together. However, I now have a win rate of 72,5 % in the tier 6's after 40 games. It doesn't feel like a fluke anymore, and if anything it might go up with a bit more practice. I'm a solid player, but just not that good. My division buddy is saying it's essentially the same story in tiers 8 and 10. We've always had one CV in the division since the release of 0.8.0 and have all seen win rates like never before. Also, @El2aZeR's stats in Midway are absolutely ridiculous, in an environment that is likely more CV-hostile than ever before. I'm not sure how exactly this should be done, but currently good CV players just seem too omni-potent. Aerial detection range could lowered, also possibly making it dependant on ship speed, to give DD's a better chance of sneaking around. Possibly rockets could be made less accurate so that especially hitting fast targets (the low-health DD) would be more difficult. Possibly all of these and then some. I don't personally mind the current state of affairs, since the CV's are fun to play, and winning is not only fun but also easier than ever before. But don't expect a CV buff if the game balance clearly needs a nerf.

This is not my experience at all, and also not backed up by stats. I quickly checked tiers 6 and 8, and good players (I checked top 10 %) in the reworked CV's are doing very exactly the same damage as tech three BB's in the same tiers. Meanwhile the reworked CV's in both tiers achieve higher win rates than battleships, by a clear margin. Why? Exactly because good players do stuff other than farm damage. They spot, harass, and finish off low-health ships out of reach for the rest of the team. They have one squadron at their disposal at one time, and they choose to go for something else than the easy damage. In fact, I would say that if a CV player has any obsession with dealing damage, he's more harmful to the team than in any other class.

I imagine you could say that, but... Cosmetics matter. They affect the immersion, and whether or not the player gets kicks out of the game. Also, the essential gaming experience is now the same for CV's as it is for other ships. You may argue that it's just cosmetic, but for me it definitely made CV's attractive to play. And more importantly, WG seems to believe most players feel the same.

I would say mostly because their ability to single-handedly delete red ships is mostly gone? I remember being deleted many times by a top-notch CV before the rework, but it's no longer happening. It's more of a group effort now. Also, before the rework, poor to average CV players often seemed oblivious to the battle going on, and instead focused on the easiest way to farm damage. Of course they can still go that way, if they're hard-headed enough, but having the same gameplay perspective as the rest of the team could encourage them to play more team-oriented. Finally, a totally subjective thing: I never liked the CV gameplay before the rework. I never liked any RTS's in the first place, and in WoWS it felt detached from the game that I otherwise enjoyed. I tried it in co-op but didn't get excited. After the rework I've been pretty much hooked. Edit: About the stats you're mostly correct, I believe. I'm not sure how many public test CV veterans there are exactly, but if many enough they definitely had a huge advantage and can skew the stats. However, starting from zero myself with Hosho when 0.8.0 was released, after the initial struggles I've also hovered around 65 to 70 % in Ryujo and Ranger.

The fact that CV gameplay is more connected to what other classes are doing is the single thing that I like most about the rework. But if you check my other reply above, CV's can still achieve the highest win rates of all ship classes. So if that's really what somebody is after, CV's are still the way to go.

This is simply untrue according to server stats. CV's have a strong potential to carry the team. If we look at the top 10 % of EU server population: Hosho and Langley have much higher win rates than before, 75 and 74 % respectively. Ryujo and Ranger have about 74 %, a bit higher than before rework. Shokaku and Lex have about 73 %, also a bit higher than before rework. Hakuryu and Midway are about the same as before rework, above 70 %. Hakuryu is currently 76 % but I believe mostly because it was very much OP in 0.8.0.0, but since nerfed. In general these are very high win rates, higher than what good (top 10 %) DD skippers can achieve, and much higher than BB's. So the CV's definitely can carry the team a LOT, or lose it for for the team if the player has no clue. Just thinking about it ,when I now play my Ryujo or Ranger, I can do a lot of useful stuff that the rest of my team really can't, other than the possible other CV. If I don't do it and the enemy CV does, likely my team is *ucked, or in the very least faces an uphill battle. What CV's can't do as easily as before is shutting down the enemy CV's.

I just checked my own stats in BB's from tiers 5 to 7, only including ships with at least a few dozen games. I have the highest main battery hit rate with Prinz Eitel, at 31 %. That's how it plays. I prefer to tank pretty close, so that the main battery performance is less of an issue, and the 7.6 km secondary range can hopefully be utilized. The ship's fast so you're the one controlling the distance. I would suspect many play it in a similar way. From long distance it's useless and I'm not sure why anybody would choose to go that way. Played as a brawler I'm getting both good damage and win rate, and the build gives solid AA for its tier. I'm still convinced that if anybody thinks it sucks hard, he or she is doing something very wrong.

I also started with the Hosho after the rework, and first did about a dozen rounds in co-op to get a hang of it. I then moved to randoms, and after another dozen rounds or so I started to do OK. I had more and more games where I could carry. It comes quite quickly if you've played the other ship types, since you instinctively know what exactly would suck if you were at the receiving end of your attack, torpedo or dive bombing run. Like you say, the CV gameplay is somewhat simplistic. I feel like there could be more things that the player has control over. But it's also clear that by keeping the mechanics initially simple it's easier to balance. Also, the big picture of CV gameplay are not the attack runs but map awareness, more so than any other class. You can cover the whole map real quick compared to anybody else on your team, with different kinds of planes. So it's really important not to get fixated with one target, but always keep in mind what's actually the smartest thing to do next. Often you can easily do something that nobody else on your team can. That being said, once I moved from Hosho to Ryujo I really started to enjoy the gameplay more. Your planes are quicker, so everything happens quicker. Your torpedo runs are made by two planes, and landing both torps on the target is more challenging. Some of the AA you'll face is murderous, and best avoided altogether. Finally, you have the fighter consumable. The tier 4's are good for getting familiar with the new CV gameplay, due to the very relaxed pace, but I think most people will eventually find the fun at higher tiers. In general I really like the rework, and I think it's good for the game. Battles with planes were always more interesting than the ones without, so if the CV's become more popular I think it's good. The 0.8.0.1 hot fix quickly addressed the worst balance issues, and it seems like 0.8.0.2 will be just about right considering what can easily be tuned with the current mechanics. Also, to address the most common gripe about the rework: I don't have any significant issues enjoying my DD's -- they just play different from before.

Based on what I've seen, it seems like a fun ship. I'd like to get it but can't, because WG can't really sell it anymore. I can understand the policy of not nerfing a premium ship, but if it's possible please by all means move it up a tier. If appropriate give it a slight buff in some area, and the possibility of a refund. I fail to see how the game benefits from OP ships that are fairly common, but new players cannot acquire? This was painfully apparent during the T5 ranked sprint where half of the ships were Giulio Cesare, Gremyaschy and Kamikaze. It sucked donkey balls.

I've just played my first 12 randoms ever in a CV, namely in the Hosho. I played about a dozen co-ops first and watched a few videos to get going. I went to randoms pretty quickly because dumping torps to the sides of bots was too easy, boring, and not really educational. I feel I'm doing OK, average damage is creeping towards 40k and I'm mostly on the top half of the score sheet. However, there are some things that I really don't have figured out. In particular, when and against which targets is it smart to use the dive bombers? I'm asking because I find them difficult to aim with, and the torps on the other hand are easy. I don't lose a lot of planes, and I usually have a full squadron of torpedo bombers ready. If I don't have torpedo bombers ready, or if there's a low-health DD to finish off, I take off with the attack planes. Also, I always do the initial scouting run with the attack planes, and usually then pretty quickly dump the rockets at reasonable targets and just recall them.