VC381

I will defer to your experience since I don't own those high tier ships but looking at the power of the heal and HP gain from SE I would think those tanking numbers are more due to the former than the latter.

Can you explain how you're getting that 60k-80k HP number out of SE?

If you're taking AFT anyway is it worth going all out secondaries? I can't think of anything else useful in the second module slot, doesn't feel like they need the accuracy mod and you usually get quite close.

I think, if the RN cruisers are squishier in game then other nations, really the issue is that the others aren't squishy enough. The fundamental unrealistic game mechanic is the autobounce/overmatch. The actual armor of the ships is modelled accurately but the structural steel around the bow/stern is treated as "armor" even when it wasn't on the real ships, and can either bounce shells if the angle is enough (autobounce) or not do anything if it's too thin against the caliber of shell (overmatch). Firstly, this steel should not be able to bounce shells, it is soft structure and should more or less be "invisible" to incoming shells. The other problem is that the thickness of it, well... WG does what they want to make a ship squishy or not, they basically decide what ships can bow-tank what shells and tweak as necessary. Needless to say as far as realism is concerned this is all BS. As far as squishyness IRL is concerned, most treaty cruisers had some theoretical immunity zone against their counterparts but it was really just that, theoretical. Often it was narrow and relied on angle. In reality most cruiser fights took place way outside these theoretical immunity zones anyway (usually much closer than planners expected!). In fact, contrary to popular belief, cruisers were not a "pure support class" IRL. Given that BBs were few and valuable, cruisers were sent to do BB missions and bore the brunt of the fighting, especially early in the war. The majority of "conventional" surface actions in WWII were cruiser vs. cruiser or at least involved cruisers very heavily. Now, you can argue until the cows come home about theoretical box magazine there, theoretical 0.5 inches of armor here, but the reality was that all cruisers that actually served in WWII (only possible exception being Baltimore) were squishy and glass cannons to the point that the only things that would guarantee you winning a fight without much return damage were either overwhelming numerical superiority or a huge element of surprise. Basically first hit usually wins, the rest was dumb luck. Besides, things like safety procedures and damage control experience play a much bigger role than armor in the survivability of a ship IRL (never mind that they don't actually have "HP"). This is why I made my somewhat brief and uninformative comment earlier. The thing is, historical anecdotes aren't always helpful because they are clouded by so many other factors. Some ships took a beating, others sank quickly, most of the time the reasons for this were more or less disconnected from their design/construction and "theoretical" survivability. P.S. Germany was never a signatory to the Washington Naval Treaty as they were limited by the (much stricter) Versailles treaty. By the late 1930s the RN had more or less by themselves decided to relax the rules and let the Germans build up to 30% of their tonnage, but other treaties didn't suddenly apply. The Hipper class were much bigger than treaty cuisers but they can't be cheating a treaty they were never part of in the first place... P.P.S. Cleveland, while built during the war and on the surface heavier than other treaty cruisers, was fundamentally a treaty design, which was finalised when the treaties were in force. The extra weight isn't really in the citadel armor, more in extra AA and some topside splinter protection. In fact the class was considered overweight, cramped and on the limits of stability, but was mass-produced because the design was available anyway. She is very strong for her tonnage, but she is NOT a post-treaty design.

So, ships with good range don't have access to range increase module? Ships with good rudder shift don't get the steering module? I don't really buy it. Would they be too OP in smoke if they could nudge back and forth with the <6 knots buff? I don't think so.

Survivability and damage models are amongst the least realistic elements of this game. Don't worry too much about it...

Still nobody answered why RN cruisers don't have access to Propulsion Modification 2...

Is there a good reason why the RN cruisers (T6+) are missing the ability to equip Engine Modification 2 in the 5th slot? Is it to not make them too OP-mobile in smoke? Bit annoying.

Are any of the ships weak in the engine/steering enough to make Last Stand worth it?

Let's see: - I want to play a 6-gun Fubuki (don't care which ship specifically, just love the class) - I wasn't lucky enough to have the low tier IJN premium DDs and need a captain trainer for the new lines - I want to play the line to Akizuki (which doesn't have Fubuki in it), I want to play Fubuki as well but I don't have the time to grind both lines - I like the strong gun or at least mixed gun/torp playstyle they're trying out for the IJN so sounds like insta-buy for me...

Speed boost! Aww yesss! And guns somewhere between Kirov and Hipper, possibly balanced by worse dispersion. That's my stab at what kind of makes sense.

Guys the question is about our level of anticipation based on current information, not hard facts. Anyway I've said it before in other threads, I don't care how "strong" or "competitive" they are (whatever that means anyway, you can do well in any ship you enjoy). I actually think they're trying to do something very interesting and I'm really hyped to play them!

He he, good old hand cranked Gnevny, I remember I had a lot of fun with that one. The guns do take some getting used to but she's essentially a baby cruiser, keep things at arms length and those sniper rifles will treat you well.

Tosa would be my pick, the other designs look very weird and their power level is possibly closer to Izumo than Amagi since I think they're taken from the same set of studies. There's also the Kii class, which is superficially similar to Amagi but is a fast BB that is an evolution/fusion of both Tosa and Amagi. That would be somewhat boring but could be balanced around a less modernised aesthetic than Amagi. What I would love to see is the B-65 "super cruiser" but I doubt she's T8 material given how WG have handled similar ships (Dunkerque and Scharnhorst).

Stat wise the differences between Mogami with 203mm and Atago are so minimal as to be irrelevant. Of course heal is the game changer here but assuming ARP Takao doesn't get it, and why should it, there is no reason she would be suddenly stronger than Mogami so much as to make her irrelevant. Or put another way, if you're hating on Mogami and expecting ARP Takao to be OP I have some seriously bad news for you. Put another-nother way, it's perfectly possible to play a very successful Atago game without using the heal. In fact it's more of a safety net, you don't Yolo-around thinking "it's OK I can repair that" because you're still a cruiser, you'll just get deleted. So if you play Mogami the same as Atago most of the time you'll do just as well. So where does the hate come from?

- Shokaku is still very strong. If you know how to set up your strikes you can carry the game, AA or not. - Hiryu beats Ranger but the T6 TBs suffer at the hands of AA when up-tiered, other than that still a solid all-rounder. - Ryujo I skipped (I wanted a full size fleet carrier) but from experience in Independence feels strong. - Zuiho is hell thanks to small maps with AS Bogues farming clear sky.

Sorry, I'm just pedantic like that

Technically it's not *1.4, they stack as *1.2*1.2, which is *1.44, giving 7.2km as the OP sees.

I don't see this as a bad thing. Firstly, it's pretty difficult to make things different but balanced and what is actually strong shifts with the meta. This is true for all online games. We have to accept this will occasionally happen if we want genuine and interesting variety, which I do. Secondly, there are players who very much enjoy that kind of style, either despite, or even because of the fact it is not objectively competitive. For some people (me included) doing something really awesome some of the time outweighs the fact it might not work very well the rest of the time. Others just like the challenge. The RN cruisers discussion is loaded with bias and anticipation, everyone wants the ships to be what they want them to be. That's an unfair burden on the devs, I for one very much look forward to whatever they come up with. In fact, I've said it before, I think the feel they are going for looks like it's trying to capture the against the odds aggression typical of the RN, with a pinch of British underdog mentality. Just let us have them already

6km already includes the AFT bonus, take your captain off the ship and you will see NC base secondary range is 5km. AFT and the module do still stack fine, but I never played NC so maybe that got nerfed?

Do you have a 15 point captain with concealment expert? I made sure I did before I got Mogami, from what others say it's like playing a different ship. I think she has her niche role, I haven't tried the 203mm setup because I'm having too much fun with the 155mm. She takes a bit more care and planning to play, it's just not an aggressive ship (but then neither was Myoko).

I recently got Mogami and I'm just looking ahead up the line. I'm curious why Ibuki loses turret traverse compared to the 203mm Mogami (and Atago for that matter) that use the same turrets. Was she super strong at some point and needed this for balance?

We're getting RN cruisers and that's awesome, and we know Belfast will be a T7 premium. I'm hoping there's room later on for another premium cruiser, a rather unique one at that. While the Dido class sometimes gets called Britain's Atlanta, the truth is they're not really comparable. I'm thinking a T6 premium would work pretty well for her.

How did you get Ibuki so fast?! It seems to me that the aggressive style enabled by the new rudder shift mod doesn't lend itself to the IJN cruisers, and stealth is probably still the way to go. I wouldn't worry about RoF, it's fairly standard and it isn't the IJN "thing" anyway, plus it helps with hiding. About getting close, I got "Close quarters expert" more than once in Atago while training a BB captain with AFT. I don't know who was more surprised, me or the DD.

Sounds promising. I think it could make an interesting gunboat style, very high alpha but very slow RoF. I hope they do it, after all Fubuki was revolutionary when built for her gun armament as well as her torpedoes.