VC381

The trade-offs already exist, it's only really the meta that makes the versatility of IJN CVs more successful. Adding AP bombs will solidify the US advantage of striking BBs, and it adds the same anti-BB alpha to their AS setup, making that more interesting+viable as well.

I know I've been taking a hard line to counter what a few others have been saying. Of course balance is important, but only up to a point. Let me backtrack a little and re-iterate one of my points. The problem is, balance and variety are at odds with each-other. The second you make two things different, they cannot be somehow magically equivalent. The more complex the game is, the harder it is to balance things. No matter how hard the developers try, the people who are really good at the game will jump on the tiniest difference in balance and stratify the units into tiers by how well they perform theoretically. My point is, that's inevitable, and it's actually impossible to balance everything. With just two trees, IJN vs. USN CVs, no matter how closely balanced they are, one would inevitably still be "better", unless you made them identical. Every single game that has a big choice of what you can play and prides itself at least partly on that variety has the "tier" issue. No matter what the developers do, there will be a large proportion of those units that someone who is playing to win would never choose to play, because they are in some way proven to be weaker and therefore less likely to win. I'm not disagreeing with you that IJN CVs are better in the hands of skilled players. But harsh as it might sound, I think it's a better solution to accept that IJN are "top tier" and USN are "bottom tier" (since we only have two) and actually try to do something to differentiate them more, to create an interesting and unique mechanic that people will like for a reason other than maximising win chance. At least that way they have an identity, and if you make them specialise and do different things it's harder to make the better/worse comparison because it will be more like apples and oranges.

So... you said earlier "the guys complaining about balance are the core player base" and just now you shifted your definition of that "core" to include a group that clearly has other priorities and don't complain about balance. How exactly does that make sense?

I still call bad luck or observation/perception bias on you because if you look at the numbers the USN and IJN heavy cruiser arcs with HE are actually pretty similar. The facts simply do not support the observation that "an IJN cc would kill any dd at that range in 2 salvos" where a US cruiser could not.

I like both for different reasons. The way the IJN ships in particular were modernised creates a very nice fusion of old design elements with some very unique and impressive new ones (pagoda masts). But that doesn't mean the clean originals aren't awesome looking in their own right. But, as I said before, WG so far has themed the IJN premiums very much around them being "early" versions, so I find it unlikely they would jump and do the opposite here.

If the number of complete noobs buying high tier premiums without a clue what to do with them is any indication, that can't be right. Also the game as a whole is not unbalanced (too badly) and the biggest source of player influx is the release of new lines, which means people do care a lot about novelty and variety. And again, vast numbers of people disagree on which direction the game is unbalanced in, so even the "core playerbase" as you call them probably can't all be pleased in the same way. I seriously doubt making CVs identical so that they're "balanced" would make competitive types suddenly spend more on the game. And you're missing the point of casual vs "serious". You assume casual just means guys who only play a couple of games a week and quit the game in a few months without spending anything on it. It has nothing to do with that, it's about whether you play mainly to win or just to enjoy different things. I would argue there are a lot of casual players who play many games per day over a period of years, and who support the game a lot by buying premium time to ease their grind and premium ships for historical and collector interest. They don't whine about balance because they're average and humble enough to realise they probably wouldn't know what they were talking about if they did, but they're happy to continue playing the game and spending on it.

I generally agree with this and I went up a few lines fairly quickly without much trouble. If people can handle the learning curve then they can learn at any tier and I'm fine with that. I don't think the OPs advice should be the universally applicable first thing you tell people, but if players are genuinely struggling due to lack of experience then advising them to slow down can be the right thing to do. Even though there are plenty of bad players at high tiers, at least on average the understanding of basic game mechanics is better so the opposition is slightly more challenging.

Actually, games work by entertaining people, and different people get fun out of a game in different ways. There is science on the part of major game companies dedicated to understanding what different kind of players want from the game. Here's a good summary of a few systems: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerArchetypes So yes, there are players for who doing something awesome or just something different, even if it doesn't work all the time, is more important than having a higher or equal chance of winning. Just because you don't think like that it doesn't mean those people don't exist. That's basically the definition of prejudice, to not even be able to accept that others hold a different view to you. The game needs to cater for everyone. If you want to win at WoWs play the ships that are good at winning, nobody's stopping you. But extend the same courtesy to others and don't rage against new mechanics that could be fun and interesting, and that some people will enjoy, because of your precious "balance". If you want to play a truly balanced game where only skill matters go play chess.

The OPs advice is good but only up to a point. It depends how quickly you learn and also a lot of lines change from ship to ship. If going just one tier higher is a big shift to something that is either a very strong ship for its tier or fits your playstyle like a glove, then it might be worth it. A lot of lines, but cruisers especially, have a big step change in power or style at either T6 or T7. Also T5 MM sucks and T5-6-7 ships often end up in the same game. Which would you rather be in?

My bad! I deleted the explanations along with the final numbers and left the originals, oops!

Rose tinted view much? There are probably a lot of people who find the multitasking of IJN CVs difficult. As I said, I see USN more often despite the fact they're "worse", and that's probably part of the reason. I've got above average and quite similar stats on Lex and Shokaku, but I don't touch Shokaku with a barge pole if I'm even slightly tired because I know how much work it takes. I want a Taiho but I'm in no rush because I'm genuinely worried about my ability to handle the squadron numbers. If I think that, how would average or slightly below average players feel? How is it right to balance the game only around the best at the expense of the rest? And since, as Xevious_Red said, a lot of this "balance" talk just revolves around making the lines more similar, how does stifling variety actually help? To draw a comparison, look at League of Legends. They have close to 150 champions but you'll be lucky if you see 20 in regular pro level play. Does that mean all the others need a buff? No, firstly because the dynamics of casual play are so different that the theoretical competitiveness doesn't matter as much, and secondly because people do actually just play what they want for whatever personal reason, not just what's most likely to win. The issue is more obvious in WoWs because there are only 2 CV lines and there is direct comparison, but the solution is not to make them more similar to chase some mythical competitive balance. The correct way is to diversify them more so that people can pick and choose to play something they find personally satisfying for whatever reason, and add more lines to muddy the waters and avoid the spotlight comparison. The second will come in time, but they're trying to do the first now and you're all busy vitriolically resisting it because you can't see past your stats and your own biases.

Cleveland : 31 Farragut : 22 Arizona : 7 Shinonome : 18 Mutsu : 20 + 1 = 21 speed and firepower combination unique to T6 BBs Ryūjō (1/2/2) : 9 Fusō : 13 Aoba: 19 Fubuki : 8 - 3 = 5 just go already... Graf Spee : 21 Warspite : 14 Leander : 20 Molotov : 16 Budyonny : 8 Duca d'Aosta : 26 Perth : 35

I think definitely people not voting on things they haven't played is a part of it. There are a few unloveds I'd like to save but not enough votes to go around. it's probably also perception. Average BB players probably still fear trash DDs like Fubuki because they're it's main snack and they have no real point of comparison. If you only play one class you'll quickly eliminate something while others are busy upvoting/"saving" something else in the wide field. As for New Mex though, I doubt it deserved to last much longer than it did. I liked it and it sure feels powerful when used right but it's also slow and likes to be on fire. I can understand people would find it frustrating.

I'm tempted but there are far too many ships and fewer common (or at least very similar) turret designs used on multiple classes like with BBs. Actually, it might work if I ignore all the crappy low tier single gun mounts, not technically turrets anyway. We'll see.

This is what I mean by elitism. You can't even begin to comprehend people think differently. I actually took the time to write my arguments in a reasoned way, is it too much to expect some concessions and the same in return?

Except it's only straight up better in a vacuum. Real games swing both ways, players make mistakes and there are a lot of other circumstantial factors. The long term statistics only indicate a slight imbalance, which most normal players won't notice or care about as they go about their games. There are plenty of people enjoying and doing well in USN CVs, and I see them far more often than IJN, presumably because something about them appeals to a lot of people.

Oh wow, a whole 10%? That's (on average) the difference between winning 5 games or 6 for a casual guy who might play 10 games at the weekend. Most people wouldn't even notice, and that's assuming they even care to start with. There are people who are after different things than the "best" from a long term statistics point of view.

You know, I respect OP for a very thorough post and of course the opinions of various CV players much better than me, but threads like this really are starting to feel like a CV elitist echo chamber. Sure, in clinical conditions, US CVs should have lower game impact the way they are set up, but does that actually matter? The game is made up of huge numbers of players across all skill levels and game are incredibly random in terms of ships involved and how they go. With a bit of dedication you can perform very well in either CV line and with any setup. The goal then should be variety, not absolute competitive balance. There are guys out there who just want to see big numbers come up on BBs and don't care if it doesn't happen all the time or if it isn't as ruthlessly effective at winning games in the long term as something else. The game needs to pander to casual players too, and US CVs do just that. That's why they're highly specialized in both loadouts, because they're easy to use but pay the price by being less flexible (otherwise they would be OP). You've got to look past the scalpel and microscope analysis and let the varying skill level of the player base smooth out balance "bumps". I think the addition of AP bombs makes sense precisely because it differentiates the CVs even more. And I know you guys hate AS loadouts but it is a huge direct buff to them in a way that is actually novel and interesting rather than just giving them a TB squad (yawn).

I think I want to wade into this one Cleveland : 30 Farragut : 21 Arizona : 7 Shinonome : 17 Mutsu : 19 + 1 = 20 gotta show this some love since getting her in the sale a few weeks ago. Speed and firepower, irresistible combination for me. Very fun ship to lead a charge and take control of a game. Ryūjō (1/2/2) : 8 Fusō : 15 Aoba: 22 Fubuki : 11 - 3 = 8 sluggish, under-gunned and with slow torps. Shinonome is the real Fubuki in all her glory, this is a poor impostor. Graf Spee : 21 Warspite : 16 Leander : 23 Molotov : 16 Budyonny : 11 Dunkerque : 6 Duca d'Aosta : 26 Perth : 35

Well, we already kind of have a stock Kongo at T4 in Ishizuchi. Yes, she has one of the design study armament layouts (not the as-built) but apart from that she's visually a WWI Kongo class in every other way.

Yeah but DDs are my least played class and worst by stats, not a good idea

Well, I got very frustrated and skipped last season after trying for a bit, but I didn't have my "go to" ship I used last time we had T7, which was Nagato. For me the highest game impact comes from a combination of speed and firepower. Team sizes are small so you're less likely to get flanked and focused, what matters is taking out enemies ASAP to get the snowball rolling. For this reason I will be playing Mutsu with speed flag. Only 2 BBs can keep up with cruiser pushes and only one of those can lolpen everything at that tier. As a cruiser main I feel I should play cruisers too but from past experience a fast BB can carry much harder, and I barely have any T6 cruisers in port (sold Leander unfortunately). I might try Molotov though if the meta is not too BB-heavy. Same reason as above, fast dash to where you need to be, amazing guns to quickly delete an unsuspecting DD or cruiser and that gets your team a decisive early advantage. I don't plan to play DDs and I sold my Gaede but I think that hydro could be decisive. Not going near CVs in a Cleveland meta and I don't own either anyway.

Alright, I added Scharnhorst, I was being short sighted before and the design, though similar to Gneis/Bis/FdG/GK, is different enough to get a separate entry. Not adding ships that aren't in the game yet, partly because I've almost run out of poll choices It looks like we have a winner though:

Priority Target Expert Marksman Demolition Expert Concealment Expert AR and IFHE are both great skills but in my opinion not the kind you take first in their rows. Yes, turret traverse on these ships is good already, but you can never have too much when you're a cruiser that needs to wiggle and dodge and change target a lot to surprise broadside people for maximum damage.

I'm finding the ship very strong and reliable. It's one you can really lead the charge with and impact the game. I find people focus you, which you can take and it's great because cruisers actually follow you and feel safe, and you're in the fight before your team has had a chance to engage and turn coward. The speed is just phenomenal for being where you need to be or getting out if you screwed up. The guns have their limitations but they are very reliable within these limitations. Multiple normal pens, solid damage. The boost comes from the speed allowing you to get into optimum firing position and stay there, or quickly find a new target if the original doesn't co-operate. You don't always get spectacular salvos but your guns are rarely silent for want of a good target and it all adds up. I've only played 10 games (even though I love the ship I don't play a huge amount and like to have variety) but it's been probably the best "first 10 games" I've had in any ship. I've had two real highlights so far. One, nailing a Tirpitz for 35k in one salvo (citadel included) as I predicted his turn at 15km (basically Denmark Strait mirror/revenge scenario). The other was getting First Blood 100-0 on a cruiser, followed by second blood... and third... and so on all the way to Kraken and charging their spawn at 32 knots before anyone else on either team got any kills.