VC381

I don't agree with the first bit. I love my Pensacola and Indianapolis but I would pick NO in a T10 game over either of those in a T9 game in a heartbeat. The second bit is only because most cruiser lines have a huge power spike and/or playstyle shift at T6 that leaves the T5s in the dust. As for range, I'm perfectly happy that other people clearly play these ships differently to me but I'm rarely using the max range of the ships we're talking about. You've got 9km detection, if you're aware of what the enemy DDs are doing you can basically go where you please and disengage at will. Actually I seriously consider removing the range mod from some of these ships to reduce the detection bloom when firing.

Yes, but if the issue is T8 MM that's a) not exclusively a cruiser problem and b) you don't solve MM issues by buffing individual ships. And if you give T8 cruisers heal, then what? The T8 concealment module is already a huge advantage over T7, you just move the whine a tier lower. So you give heal to cruisers down to T6, to screw T5 even more? True T8 can feel like a bit of an odd spot but overall the power progression does make sense the way it is. MM changes are the only real solution.

No. Did the other T8 cruiser whine thread slip off the first page already or is it a weekly requirement to have one of these? Anyway answer is the same: No. T8 cruisers are agile and stealthy, use that to live. New Orleans got a buff to RoF recently, it's a very good ship with amazing stealth and radar too. Mogami got a buff that makes the 155mm setup much better than before, real monster with IFHE as well. T8 in T10 game is not harder than any other +2 MM, just play your role and deal with it.

Soviet. Not really that agile (some are, some aren't) but usually very fast, so it can still be hard to hit you. Lots of guns with good rate of fire, good arcs and long range. I haven't played french cruisers much but I get the impression they are meant to use their speed to be hard to hit and HE spam from medium to long range. Soviet do the same just a slightly different flavour. The T6 Budyonny has the same gun setup as Bertin/Gali (3x3 152mm) but better range and rate of fire. Then to T9 you get 12 guns. Probably you would also find Kongisberg quite fun, and maybe Nurnberg, but after that the German line changes while the Soviet is most consistent and similar from T6 to T9. Honestly, if you like shell spam IJN isn't for you. Of course they are very powerful cruisers and very fun, but their rate of fire is low and they rely more on alpha damage. The slow turret traverse is also not that comfortable on the ships T5 to T7. If you like always moving it's easier to play ships that can react quicker.

The speed and tankyness are your tools to get into a range where the supposed inaccuracy doesn't matter (and then get you back out if things go wrong). I say "supposed" because I never really felt the guns are any worse than the average BB, at least how I play it, it seems to make no difference to me. Also you need to make use of that turret traverse to quickly switch and punish targets that are making themselves easy to hit. It's not a ship you focus one enemy with once he's actively countering you. The point is, even if the ship is inaccurate, in the end it's proper position and target selection that make or break your damage output (and game impact), and of all BBs Hood is one of the best for being able to control those two parameters.

Probably just one of those things, like bright colours and lavish interiors (for the officers at least) that some navies were fond of in peacetime but we're quickly removed when war started. Guess the 3D model department at WG was basing on peacetime drawings of the ships or just thought they were cool.

I know but 1) it's still more than most would do (and the implication is he read, understood and discussed it with someone else knowledgeable) and 2) I was trying to be nice unlike the majority of the others.

Up to playstyle. Rudder shift is more versatile when you aren't hunting DDs, and even if you turn radar on as soon as you're spotted and spot the DD back, that won't save you from the inevitable incoming BB salvos. Survival first. If I'm spotted in a bad place I prefer to dodge and reposition than try to retaliate with radar at the edge of its range where it can get wasted easily (your guns are probably not pointing the right way and you usually can't rely on your team to follow up either in a quick-reaction situation like that). I save radar for more guaranteed kill situations, like denying smoke when I already know where their DD is but I want to make sure I am so close first that he has no possible escape when I hit radar.

German cruisers, because with a fairly obscure and uninspiring project at T7 and two fictional abominations at T9 and 10, it's easier to just buy the Eugen to play the only historically interesting class above T6.

The hull helps a lot with the rudder shift but I didn't particularly have an issue with stock config. The thing about this ship is she benefits a lot from playing full stealth. CE + concealment module and suddenly you're 12km away from some poor sod who didn't even realise he needed to angle against you (because he couldn't see you) and off he goes to the seabed. It's absolutely brutal, even against BBs. The guns are a bit harder to aim at long range but you shouldn't need to shoot far away (see earlier comment). At the medium ranges you should be fighting, they are very accurate and have unmatched penetration at that tier. "I know I need to keep bow in"... hmm, sure that works to an extent but personally I disagree. You're fast enough to flank, and the rear turret has a good enough angle on it to get all 9 guns on target then swing the bow just a bit to tank incoming. You dip back to stealth between shots and that covers any turns you need to make. Bear in mind you've played <500 games. You've done well in New Mex and Colorado but you're still a bit inexperienced and there is a playstyle shift to NC. Keep practicing, the other guys have given some solid advice as well.

Really nice to have some positivity going around about this line Baltimore is definitely a fun ship and I completely agree that while other cruisers can feel easier to play and superficially appear stronger because they can rake in damage numbers, this is one ship that can go aggressive and make or break a game. Had some fantastic moments, like sailing circles around a North Carolina at such close range he couldn't keep his guns on me while I was farming him for citadels. It wasn't intentional and I instinctively hit "3", thought "uh oh, I don't HAVE torps" then quickly realised "ha ha ha, I don't NEED torps!" Yes, reload mod all the way, you don't need the range, that isn't your job. Actually, playing Atlanta recently without AFT has actually made me realise the value of having a short gun range (you can get un-spotted easier with the new gun bloom mechanics). I've actually been very tempted to remove the base range modification from a few ships (US CAs included) to see how well I can leverage this on other ships. I almost never fight at max range anyway. One more thing. I know most people will play this ship all stealth and Radar, but I would highly recommend giving the rudder shift module a try instead of the concealment module. Detection range is still pretty good with just CE+camo, you are using islands anyway for most of your cap approaches with radar, and that rudder shift module really patches up one of the ships few weaknesses. Sure, she's not as agile as a Pensacola or NO, but it still helps a lot depending on how you play. It's not a 100% dodge tank, but you have good armour, HP pool and heal so it's a bit of a "hybrid" tank that still gives you a lot more mileage in survivability. And speed flag is your friend.

It's a struggle enough getting dreadnoughts into the game, I doubt we will ever see that Blucher and even if they are thinking it she's almost impossible to balance with the way low tiers are set up. Don't get me wrong, I don't desperately WANT a T7 Blucher CA, I'm just saying it's viable.

Kaiser T4 - Konig Albert premium T3 Nagato T7 - Mutsu premium T6 Kirov T5 - Molotov premium T6 Edinburgh T8 - Belfast premium T7 Fletcher T9 - rumoured T8 premium sister Amagi T8 - Ashitaka (rumoured) premium T7 EDIT: since we're doing this: Furutaka/Aoba - sisters by design, half-sisters because of modifications in construction Fubuki/Akatsuki - some differences but usually all three groups of "Special Type" DD are considered the "Fubuki class" together Mogami/Ibuki - repeat design, minor improvements Kagero/Yugumo - arguably also repeat design, minor changes When the sisters are quite different or (more usually) when they represent the class at a completely different point in time with different strength, it can be done. Blucher can fit this kind of difference in an early war condition (vs. Hipper and Eugen late war).

I don't dislike the German 150mm gun, I just think the 12-gun setup feels distinctly un-German. I feel they're defined more by the finesse and quality of their gunnery (good traverse, RoF, arcs, penetration) than brute-force numbers. This is the flavour they carry in game for both cruisers and battleships (exceptions at T10 that I also dislike) and reflects their RL design philosophy where a lot of ships had smaller and/or fewer guns than direct foreign equivalents, making up in other areas. From a pure playstyle point of view, the 4x3 has the potential to be something different, which is nice of course. But it might also cause rage because the captain would need to be skilled differently to the silver high tier cruisers so it wouldn't be an ideal trainer. And we don't really need more HE spam. But I do agree that a different secondary and AA setup would definitely help set apart both Lutzow/PP and Seydlitz. I think something like a 'Kreuzer M' would be a far better candidate for a premium German 150mm armed cruiser, albeit at a lower tier.

Yes, Blucher would work at T7, with Hipper A-hull HP and AA and probably a RoF nerf as well, other than that losing the T8 module slot is a fairly big nerf in itself. Lutzow, yes T8 to Russians as Petropavlovsk with the 20cm as she already had some fitted when sold, doesn't make sense otherwise. Basically Eugen stats but maybe different shells for flavour. Seydlitz, please no we don't need 12x150 in the German line. In fact, the biggest opportunity they missed with Seydlitz is not making her T9 instead of the completely fictional abomination that is Roon.

We have to accept this is a game and some things won't be realistic. All battleships only fire to ~20km as that's how the developers decided the maximum range will be. No ship in game fires at the physical maximum range of the guns in real life (except maybe Fletcher with AFT and range module). Actually apart from that, the shell characteristics are simplified but overall quite good at the ranges the games take place. I admire your interest in history and your research efforts, I also wish sometimes some parts of the game were a bit more realistic. But you've touched a nerve because Tirpitz in game is a ship many consider a bit too strong, that is also played badly by a lot of people who just buy it before they really understand the game. I'll try not to be as rude as the guy before me, but basically forget everything you think you know or what you believe the game should be like. Enjoy the game for what it is (the 3D models are gorgeous, the action is fast paced and fun) and go practice in a lower tier ship until you understand the game as a game.

I have a theory, actually the tactic was already mentioned but I want to put some explanation and numbers to it, so I need some game mechanics backup. How exactly does overpen work when angled? It seems people assume angling and being bow in are the same thing. I'm wondering if an overmatch at a really big angle (like bow in) is basically a guaranteed normal penetration, so to get overpens instead on the large area of hull outside of the belt you actually need to angle less. Of course, this risks the belt itself, but given how thick it is it should be possible to cause shatters to even 16" shells with only a moderate angle, past a certain range depending on what's shooting you. So we should be able to work out a "sweet spot" of angles and ranges for KGV where her all-or-nothing armour works as intended (shatters on belt, overpens only everywhere else).

Duke isn't a 21 knot ship though, she does 23 upgraded which puts her joint second. Gun wise, better reload than NY, harder hitting than Konig. Kongo is an apples and oranges comparison but I would say ID is as stronger than the other two 5x2s.

As a mainly cruiser player, this is one of my bread and butter playstyles and I happily transfer it to fast battleships and battlecruisers that suit it well. To be honest, the "over the shoulder" angles on the front guns of Amagi are excellent, so I always wiggle to use all 10 guns. Hood works very similar, as does Kongo. You can also do the wiggle while charging, since all the aft guns can face very far forward. Plan ahead some island "decision points" that you can use to mask an approach or cover your turn when changing from pushing to kiting.

Possibly the wrong place for this question, but how does the game calculate effective thickness to be penetrated for angled hits? Just thickness/cos(obliquity)? Also how does this interact with thickness required to arm the fuse? The Wiki is a bit confusing on this since it gives the example that Iowa's shells need 38mm to arm at 0 degrees obliquity, or 10mm to arm at 65 degrees obliquity. This isn't a straight up cosine relationship, but then it contradicts itself anyway by saying that arming thickness for a 410mm gun is 68mm. So what is the actual overpen condition?

I know that technically if a premium ships is better than the silver counterpart it's "P2W" even if it's not outright OP (as in, I agree with the "pay for advantage" even if it's not a guaranteed "win"). But, I also think that the game is 80% player 20% ship, so even if some ships are OP it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, especially if it draws people to pay to keep the game alive. We have to accept it's a niche subject and balance is a difficult thing. And since that is the case, good performance on ship global stats really reflects more on the kind of people playing those ships, than the ships themselves. In other words, the are lies, damned lies and statistics, and given how many factors influence win rate for a ship you can prove or disprove anything you like. In fairness, I can't really put my finger on a particular premium ship that I would say is outright OP, and there are also plenty of premiums that many people consider weak or too quirky to bother with. Even the classic examples of premiums better than silver counterparts have some trade-offs muddying the waters, while a lot are really apples and oranges comparison and it's hard to really define which is "better", especially since some just seek a certain playstyle not win rate maximisation at all costs. And as far as rewards go, a premium ship that is weak won't sell since performance affects income of gold and XP. In reality, people might be training sub-optimum captains or just want an easy ride as they grind, so some premiums being a bit forgiving makes sense in this context, even if it's seen as P2W.

T9 is a grind hurdle I've only made in 3 lines so far, a couple more getting close, but I'll look forward to it some day. How does she compare with Iowa? I had the privilege of getting absolutely wrecked by I think a Lion yesterday. I say "I think" because I know there was one on the enemy team when my NC took 44k damage out of nowhere during what I thought was a safe turnaround. GG to that guy, tried to watch him for a bit afterwards (couldn't see him most of the time) but he seemed to have great impact even with his team evaporating around him. Looked nimble as well! As for changes, I don't want to derail but basically it would be nice to have some better resolution on armour and damage rather than just a few hard rules. I know WG is designing the game for the absolute lowest common denominator but those kind of people rage and whine no matter what. I think it's not essential for the armour model to be 100% understandable by every layman as long as the results are consistent and somewhat in line with realism. KGV for example, the all-or-nothing armour scheme should mean penetrating hits to non-citadel areas shouldn't be hitting anything important. On e.g. Bismarck they would be. Happy to keep HP as an abstraction, but in game a penetrating hit is just that, same damage without regard to what's actually being damaged. Really, an upper hull hit on something like KGV (or NC, Iowa etc.) should nearly always be overpen (10%) damage, because there's nothing there worth damaging that would threaten the ship even if the shell did go off inside (but above the main deck). On Bismarck this would (and did IRL) take out communication lines and rapidly reduce the combat effectiveness of the ship. Of course this would be frustrating, but instead normal penetrations to ships like that could do more damage (say 50% instead of 33%) to simulate this. Small changes, but suddenly the modern ship is suitably survivable in accordance to her design principles and the out-dated design punished as reasonably expected.

You mean the ships that were pretty hard to sink and also designed to be most effective at closer range, in a game that forces unrealistically close ranges? I agree with you it's jarring, but it isn't completely non-sensical in context. Also "best" is a stretch. Anyway, I understand the game needs to be fast paced and simple to maintain interest in what is already a niche thing, and I'm perfectly happy with many of the sacrifices to realism to make the game fun and accessible. But if there is at least a nod to history, ships should be good at what people expect them to be good at from reading about them, not behave in random or outright opposite ways. I could write a bullet point list longer than my arm of ways to make the armour and damage models make more sense without changing the core gameplay philosophy or making it boring. Oh well... That aside, from what I've read it sounds like I will probably quite enjoy KGV and the higher tier ships from a gameplay perspective, even though their fictional nature initially made me unsure about wanting to go there. Lion looks absolutely gorgeous.

Yeah, earlier I had a Duke Kraken game with 100k AP damage. Load AP like any other BB and 10 guns will deliver the pain. I didn't mean to come across too whiny, it's definitely a strong ship, just doesn't "do it" for me. Guess I also like it fast... but I don't have 100k Free XP lying around!

She should have a 127mm to 152mm deck somewhere in there, or are you only talking about taking normal penetrations to the upper hull sections and not threatening the citadel? TBH the issues people are reporting with KGV just highlight how utterly awful the game mechanics are with regards to armour. The second best armoured BB of the WWII period is insanely squishy and beaten on survivability by the hordes of ones with out-dated armour schemes? Yeah, pull the other one...