VC381

Sorry, I got my classes mixed up, I meant to say Indefatigable for T8!

Hypothetically, if the BB was healing, would you get more credits if you solo sank him through his heals because you technically did e.g. 120% of his HP in damage?

Mogami rudder shift 155s (no IFHE):

Up to you, I'll be happily contesting caps in this when it comes out and having fun while training my captain.

No offense but you guys are coming across really fussy if you think a cookie cutter IJN torpedo boat build won't work on Asashio. Slight playstyle adaptation and completely different captain requirements are not the same thing...

Where does this come from? Sure Asashio might benefit greatly from TA but not like it's unplayable without it. And arguably all silver IJN DDs T6 to T10 could make use of TA if they wanted to. Given how huge the backlash tends to be to just "copy paste" premiums it makes sense they went for "special", but it seems they can't win!

See my edit. I'm pretty sure now it's just an inconsistency in which draft WG chose for each class. 4.4m normal for Gearing and 5.8m full load for Yueyang, which is quite a big difference. I don't have better sources but ships inevitably get heavier throughout their careers, which might explain the waterline being painted in a different place in Chinese service. Even the Gearings are unlikely to have achieved that normal load draft except maybe fresh out of building dock (they sure don't look that high in wartime pictures). It's not unusual for WG to have ships sitting too high and Gearing is one of the oldest 3D models in the game. Basically our Gearing is wrong.

You're using the WWII numbers for AMS class, but how much weight did they gain with post-war equipment in foreign service? Edit: the difference is half a turret which is what, 1m to 1.5m? That's the difference between normal load gearing and full load AMS. So Yy is using full load as makes sense with post-war weight gain while G is using light load.

1 and 2 but with a 2.5 of just generally playing cruisers and enjoying my newfound BB free combat space.

How does that help? One complaint raised was that these torps will punish pushing BBs more than camping ones. If anything we need the opposite, torpedoes that get stealthier the longer they've been running. E.g. within 5km pass under BBs too, up to 10km easily spotted, after 15km basically invisible.

Something that can do a bit of everything but not amazingly is balanced, and something that can do one thing really well and another not is also balanced just in a different way. And cruisers are the natural DD counter so I don't see an issue anyway with this situation. Plus as I said Asashio doesn't need to deal with cruisers itself, it's already zoned or sunk their support and is spotting them, its team-mates now need to step up and fill the gaps. It really comes across as if you're saying the ship is bad because it actually requires teamplay rather than being able to do everything itself. And 20km torps do have a place in game. No matter how you make the argument that IJN torps are already very strong or that IJN DDs are the best torp boats already, they're no longer special in the ways that invoke the feel of what people expect from their historical knowledge of these weapons and the spirit of IJN torpedo tactics. I think we absolutely need a dedicated capital ship killer for the IJN and the way they've done it makes sense and is balanced. And I'm sorry but I don't care what DD players worth their salt do or don't do or what experienced players decide that a DDs job should or should not be. We don't need another ship that slots neatly into existing roles, we do need one that breaks the mould because clearly the current crop is lacking against BBs. I am really happy to have a ship that enables a different playstyle no matter who it appeals to or whose feathers it ruffles by its mere existence.

I've been levelling a new US captain for the line split. Plan is to use him to grind T6 and then permanently keep him on the T7 Helena. Now normally I just blindly take DE as the 3rd skill but then I thought 2% fire chance isn't a great deal. So I looked around and... nothing else is either! Let's see: - Basics of Survivability: cruiser fires are short and on mid tier ships without heal you usually don't let them burn anyway. So pretty useless. - Survivability expert: 2k HP on a 30k HP ship is a ~6% buff, doesn't seem worth it. - Torpedo Reload: no torps on US T7 but even on others I don't see any T6-7 cruiser torps being worth this skill. - Fire take off: erm... - BFT: maybe for the AA but most T6-7 cruisers don't have AA worth buffing. - Superintendent: no interesting consumables at T6-7 to make this worth it. - DE: as I said, my default choice but looks pretty weak anyway. - Vigilance: some people swear by this but I've never used it, don't feel like I need it. I guess I have to take SOMETHING but all the choices are so underwhelming basically everything feels like a waste of points just to unlock the 4th row. Is it just me?

I think you have Eagle and Glorious the wrong way around, Eagle has the smaller air group and is slower so better suited to lower tier. The rest I like. I do actually hope the high tiers turn out like that. HOWEVER, I'm not sure the Illustrious and Indomitable air group sizes can support them being T8 and T9, although it depends on how else WG balances them and which exact air group numbers they use. I would think it more likely and realistic if we had: T7: Illustrious; prem: Ark Royal T8: Indomitable T9: Audacious (post-war Eagle) T10: Malta (pick another name if you like)

Perhaps you're right on that observation but I think we're kidding ourselves if we actually genuinely hope for something different. They've painted themselves into a corner with BB popularity and power and any attempt to change that will meet backlash they don't want. In any case if the meta does eventually change they'll just buff Asashio, just like they gave Atlanta radar when they realised there weren't enough CVs around for her to be viable as a purely AA gimmick ship.

I also agree with both your analyses of IJN DDs but it doesn't support the conclusion that Asashio will be awful. It can do all that scouting, capping, kiting just as well as the regular IJN DDs, it's not any worse at that. Your argument hinges entirely on the perception that the torp range will make people play it worse, but you acknowledge people play IJN DDs badly anyway. So what difference does it make if those people are given the tools to actually play the ship how they want? If they were in a regular Kagero they would still not be playing how you want them to and will fail even harder. People who understand DDs will play Asashio well. At least on that point, i.e. the power/usefulness of the ship itself, you seem to be simultaneously saying it will be too strong and too weak whereas I think it's trade-offs make sense and it will still play as an IJN DD with a different flavour.

But another smoke is very welcome anyway.

My point also but it doesn't even need a division. Once cruiser players see the enemy BBs hang back this kind of support will happen spontaneously. Not super frequently, but it will happen. I often in DDs start a battle by typing out my plan of where I'll smoke and inviting cruisers to support me. I was amazed by how well this worked for me a few times.

For RN cruisers SI is a no brainer but as I said I've never run out of Hydro or DefAA and wished I had another and I don't even use premium consumables.

Again with the "should". No ship "should" do anything. We have many DDs that do all that, there's nothing wrong with a ship that offers something different. And anyway it won't be awful, just slightly less effective, which is fine because it does something else. And that's where you contradict yourself. Asashio might not always win a typical cap battle but you're saying it will make even good BB players run and hide by its mere presence. So... it's single handedly winning the game for the team, just in an unconventional way. By zoning BBs it's enabling the team cruisers to better prop up the roles it's not great at. If I'm playing a cruiser I would love an Asashio on my team.

You're saying this ship will encourage people to play badly and as evidence you use the fact people already play badly. So really nothing will change (never mind that playing badly is subjective). If anything, I would rather the DD on my team that wants to run off and flank no matter what was doing it in a ship that at least made the tactic somewhat effective. There are different ways to affect the game. You can argue some are more or less optimal but in random battles everyone isn't playing optimally anyway and there are so many factors at play that in my view anything goes. Every change is an opportunity, I'm always able to spin something into a positive.

This comes across a bit elitist. The game is for everyone and I see no problem with ships designed this way. There are other ships that are difficult to play and they get slammed by a lot of people for being "useless", and that's OK too. I understand very good players want certain gameplay and ships that support it but you have no more right to impose on how this game should be played than anyone else. So in some cases it is right for WG to ignore the opinions of a vocal minority, even respected and very experienced players, just because they have a very narrow definition of how the game should be played and anything that threatens that is the end of the world. Let people have their gimmicky toys and if it changes the way some games play out (this ship won't be in every game, as has been pointed out), adapt and overcome, you should be good enough to do that.

Oh I completely agree with this but didn't want to say it because talk of historical accuracy (or let's call it "historically logical representation" since accuracy we're not getting anyway) gets you shot down very quickly for no good reason. But this is also my reason for being excited by Asashio, as I said it's the first ship that I actually see as really being an IJN DD in spirit. I think as you say you can make the points both ways and maybe this ship won't solve problems, maybe it will create some. But I don't think many people are using "punishing spawn camping BBs" as an argument. It clearly won't do that but it doesn't need to. I feel no need to punish backline BBs on the enemy team because they're already no threat to me. If the game is about capping and zoning then torpedoes that are custom made to tackle BBs are a valid tactic to zone the enemy team away from the cap. It's unconventional but like anything if played well it would work. It might change what types of BBs people play to US and IJN ones that are more accurate at range and therefore can play safer around the zoning without losing impact. Sure I've made my points strongly and exaggerated a little but so has everyone else. I don't think asking for the ship to not be implemented is a sensible reaction. It's like the RDF mess, the game/world didn't end. This won't ruin it either.

Actually, I don't. I want BBs supporting the objective, but pushing it is not, and should not be their job. I don't want every island gap to have a BB parked bow in and impossible to remove, denying the area in front of it to everyone else. That's static gameplay, that's camping in my opinion and is very stale for the other classes. It would be OK if bow tanking didn't exist and BBs had the ability and incentive to punish each-other but that's not the case. They push and ignore each-other while basically squeezing the other classes out of the space between them. This isn't some MMO where BBs are the paladins leading the charge. They should have a healthy respect for getting into dangerous situations and staying on the move at a range where their dispersion balances their damage potential so other classes can fight at their optimum ranges as well. I don't want every BB on the map border either but that's an exaggeration, there has to be a middle ground.

1) I don't think the IJN DDs are in a bad place competitively but they don't stand out as torpedo boats as much as they used to, and as much as they should to really provide the flavour I expect from the historical reputation of these torpedoes. That's why I think this is interesting and why I want it. 2) I think reaction time isn't crucial when we're talking about long range torpedoes. Torpedoes are dodged before you see them. Most people turn randomly, hitting with any existing torps beyond about 7km is already a matter of luck or the enemy being dumb, and high tier ships are sluggish so reaction time generally isn't a saviour. In other words players will still need to get close-ish to make really good use of Asashio. 3) 1v1 yes (although if he's good at kiting you'll lose so much HP doing this it won't be worth it). But rushing is suicide if there's at least one guy awake on the enemy team to shoot at you. The IJN DD doesn't even have to use his weapons in that scenario. Torps and guns don't win cap battles, team support does. 4) but if it had different torps it wouldn't be as unique. What would be the point in basically having a PA DD in the IJN line? I'm OK with a bit of balance by min-maxing and specialising, it doesn't need to be amazing at everything. I want a ship that's really awesome at what I expect it to be awesome at and damn the rest. Anyway it's still a super stealthy DD with 6 hard-hitting guns, it won't be completely useless in more typical DD situations. Thing is, half the forum seems to be complaining the ship is OP and the other that it will be useless. To be honest I think this will all blow over and be forgotten and a few people will enjoy their new toy while nothing really changes.

I'm very wary of talk of "correct play". Unless you're in a clan war there isn't correct play, it's a game and it's about having fun and the more different ways there are to do it the better. I know there's a "meta" but dismissing a ship because it doesn't serve the traditional role of its class isn't right either. Shaking things up may have both positive and negative consequences. And even if Asashio doesn't play the objective, if it's that brainlessly effective at denying the enemy BB push it's still contributing to the game just in another way.