Jump to content

Dan_The_Barbarian

Players
  • Content Сount

    12
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Battles

    1638
  • Clan

    [AOB]

About Dan_The_Barbarian

  1. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    The German calculations for Bismarks guns that i posted were against face hardened armour, your figures are for non face hardened steel. Also the stated mps for a 25% worn 14" barrel is 732mps. The design mv is 770 for a new barrel which i based the penetration values on. Just so i would not upset anyone by lowering the mv of Bismarks guns. Lets knock 5% off the mv of Bismarks guns to simulate the drop in performance with a worn barrel. Bismarks penetration really will start to drop off at range. It is also up for debate if Bismarks guns even had an mv of 820, no actual records of test firings survived, and it really is just a guesstimate how they performed. Just as Bismarks armour protection is basically the same as Bayerns, only with a thinner belt, slightly thicker deck, and a few more water tight compartments. It is nothing like as comprehensive as the KGV's or the Carolinas. Only abreast the magazines and above them do you get the armour thickness i have used, in reality everywhere else you are looking at a maximum of 9" inch belts protecting machinery spaces, and barely 4" of horizontal protection. Studies of the wreak have shown this. Survivors from the Bismarks crew under interrogation stated her belt was only 11" thick at the magazines! I have not even mentioned the good performance of the 14" shells at penetrating angled armour, or the very unreliable fuze of the German 15" round. From what i can tell the only round that Bismark ever fired, that penetrated a capital ship, and then exploded as designed, was the round that likely sunk the hood... I can think of several actions off hand for the British 14", 15" and 16" guns where many rounds worked exactly as designed,and far fewer which failed Also try to remember the KGV is in my fast line, the real battleship i intend to do the heavy fighting are those ugly duckling Nelsons! May i add i have noticed how the only real problem people have with my proposed fast line, slow line tree, is the 14 inch guns on KGV lol!
  2. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    At 21000 meters, according to "German capital ships of World war two", the Bismarks guns can penetrate 13.7 inches of armour. At 20000 meters it is 14.3 inches, and at 19000 meters it is 14.7 inches. This is face hardened armour too!At 10000 meters we are talking 20 inches of penetration! The 14 inch gun will penetrate 11 inches at 21000 meters, 11.7 inches at 20000 meters, and 12.5 at 19000 meters. At 10000 meters we get 16.5 inches of penetration. Do you see how they overlap?
  3. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    Yes Bismarks guns can counter KGV's armour, but only if she is within 20km at the most. At that range Bismarks own protection is just as vulnerable to KGV's 14 inch guns, hence why i think they are evenly matched. Also the throw weight of a KGV braodside is 800kg more, The KGV has a 13% heavier broadside then the Bismark. The Bismark's firepower is less.
  4. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    The KGV's were not built in 1945, though. They were designed almost a decade earlier. About the same time as Bismark and the Carolina's. It can also be argued that KGV's protection was at least 15% more effective then Bismark's. So if the Bismark needs 15% more effective guns to counter KGV's 15% more effective armour, we are still at zero...
  5. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    ... and because of that they can all expect to damage each other at similar ranges in game. The others have better guns, the KGV has better armour. I think it would make very interesting gameplay compared to the rest of the tier 8 battleships. Like i said if you give her better guns, she is a tier 9 ship, and we already have one of those, the Lion!
  6. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    Yes the 14 inch is inferior at all ranges,BUT the armour of all three other ships i have mentioned are inferior to the KGV's. If the KGV had a 12.7 inch belt and 5.7 inch horizontal protection like the Bismark. Or a 12 inch belt and 6 inch horizontal armour like the Carolina, or a 9.8 inch belt and a 4 inch deck like the Amagi. I would consider giving her better guns, so that they could all reasonably penetrate each other at similar distances! As it happens though the KGV has 14.7 inch belts, and 7.5 inch horizontal protection, to give her guns as effective as the Bismarks would place her in tier 9, as she would be able to penetrate Bismarks protection several thounsand meters outside of the Bismarks ability to penetrate her belt armour, and as we have already agreed upon by your lack of argument, the KGV would be invulnerable to any plunging shells from the Bismark anyway, at any range! So in the interests of balance, i am happy to have 14 inch guns, as with these guns, KGV,Bismark and to a lesser extent Carolina would all be able to penetrate each other at similar ranges in the game.For reference as to how well protected the KGV was, as a comparison, the Iowa had 12.1 inch belts and an effective horizontal protection of 7.2 inches. You will note that the belt armour provided less protection then the Bismarks, and Iowas horizontal protection was inferior to the KGV's too...
  7. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    The problem with having the 15 inch mrk1 is that its penetration out to 20km is about the same as the 14 inch. The 15 inch does have superior long range penetration though. No doubts about this gun, at 25km it can punch through 6 inches. Unless you use the APC mrk XVIIb as produced by Cardonald of Scotland from 1936, with supercharges. In which case the shell has markedly improved penetration at greater angles. So you would be looking at a 879kg shell, with a muzzle velocity of over 800m/s. So similar performance to the Bismarks guns. You are suggesting that the KGV should be armed with guns that could penetrate the Bismarks belt at a range of upto 24 km, when the Bismark would only be able to hit back at 20km or less? All so that a 14 inch gun would not be placed into tier 8? Especially when i have shown that because of the differences in armour and armament between the two ships, their historical setups actually make them very balanced opponents at ranges under 20km?
  8. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    A hit anywhere other, then on the centreline near the turrets will penetrate the effective thickness of 4.9 inches of horizontal armour. and on the centreline around the barbettes it is 5.7 inch. The Bismark would be vulnerable. As stated by others, it is not really represented in game, so my point of both ships being largely equal at the ranges and flight trajectories in game , still stands. Just don't compare the Amagi to these 3 ships, that is the ship that could do with a buff,,,
  9. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    With regards to plunging penetration, the penetration goes up, as the range increases. At shorter ranges plunging pen decreases sharply. The deck armour becomes more angled compared to the shell trajectory. The much thinner horizontal armour of the Bismark makes her vulnerable to the 14 inch at any range above 25km. Like i said, the KGV was immune to plunging fire from the Bismark at any range less then 35km. Good luck getting a hit at any greater range then this! Between 25km and 20 km they were both immune to the others fire, and at ranges below they were about equal. I could point out that the weight of Bismarks broadside was almost 800kg less then the KGV, and about 4600kg less then a Carolina. A good analogy for the potential damage of a broadside for any ship? Im sure they will balance this in game by altering rates of fire ect.
  10. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    I agree In a long range fight the Carolina's have a clear advantage in penetration. The Carolina would have to pen a 6 inch armoured deck, a 1.25 inch weather deck and a 1.5 inch splinter deck to hit the magazines, so according to the formula of the total thickness of the thinner decks, halved, and added to the main deck we are talking 7.5 inch effective armour. The Carolina's will pen that at any range over 27km, and in return you are talking 35+km for the 14 inch guns to return the favour! When it comes to the flatter trajectories, the 14 inch will pen the Carolinas at anything under 20km, and the Carolinas will penetrate the KGV at anything less then 23km, roughly. So a clear advantage for the Carolina's, although they are a little slower then either the KGV and the Bismark, i think it is pretty balanced! I am just trying to show that although KGVs guns are clearly not as good as the other ships, the very good armour of KGV, kind of levels the field in terms of ranges we can expect to get penetrations, for each individual ship. Just think what a brawl between two KGV's with thick armour and those guns would be like Stated penetration of the 14 inch shell at 25km onto horizontal armour is 5 inches. You also have to remember that to calculate the the effective armour thickness when you have a single thick plate, and other thinner plates, you halve the total value of the thinner plates, then add them to the thick plate, according to Royal Navy research in the first world war. So the total armour of most of the deck with the exception of over the magazines was 4.9 inches, and over the magazines it was 5.7.You could penetrate the deck with plunging fire at any range over 25km, and the magazines at about 28km + . Remember that KGV was immune to plunging fire from the Bismark at anything less then 35km. The 14 inch could penetrate just under 13 inch face hardened steel at 19km, the Bismarks guns could penetrate 14.3 inches at 20km. The KGV has 14.7 inch belts. Because of their respective compromises both ships were pretty equal under 20km, and the KGV was superior at anything over 25km. Which is not really replicated in game.
  11. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    The 14 inch guns will be fine in tier 8. I am only using the Bismark as a comparison. At any distance over 22km the thickest part of Bismarks deck was not proof against the 14 inch round. At any distance less then 19km the the thickest part of Bismarks belt was not proof against the 14 inch round. In return, the Bismarks 15 inch guns could penetrate KGV's belt at a maximum distance of about 19km, and her guns would be unable to penetrate the deck of KGV at any range less the 35km. Bismarks guns could penetrate the hoods deck at any range above 14km, and the hoods belt out to 23km. The shot that sunk the hood, was at a range of 14km. ref German capital ships of world war two. We also have the evidence from actual battles. Three shells from Prince of wales penetrated Bismark, and the german ship was very lucky not to be severely damaged as only one of them exploded. They made a large amount of Bismarks fuel unusable, slowed the Bismark by 3 knots, and the flooding caused after one of the shells exploded under the armoured belt soon caused the Bismark to take on a 9 degree list! In return the Prince of wales was also lucky as the only two shells that could have caused damage failed to explode. The damage to Bismark, and her loss of fuel ultimately led to her destruction, meanwhile the Prince of wales would eventually be sunk as part of force Z by the IJN. KGV had penetrated bismarks deck and belt from 21km down to 9km on multiple occasions along with Rodney. The Duke of York was able to detect Scharnhorst on her radar at a range of 44km, and was then able to close the distance down to 12km before opening fire. DOY's very first salvo knocked out Scharnhorst's forward turrets, her next salvo destroyed the aircraft hanger. Scharnhorst tried to make her escape, but at long range the DOY penetrated Schanhorst again, destroying a boiler and engine room, and causing the ship to not only flood, but her speed to drop to just 10 knots. Again DOY was able to penetrate Scharnhorst multiple times. Ref Naval-history.net . Both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were fought and driven off by Renown. Gneisenau had several crew killed, and her rear turret was disabled. I think this supports the position of Renown as tier 6.
  12. Dan_The_Barbarian

    Royal BB line

    I can see two British lines, one line will have battlecruiser's, and fast battleships. The second could have the slower ships of the line. I feel this way would better reflect how the royal navy intended to fight with slower battleship fleets doing the heavy fighting, as the Royal Navy had but one goal, to bring the enemy fleets to bear, these ships tended to be slow, durable, and heavily armed. The faster line would be used for gaining a better tactical position, chasing enemies down and escort. In the fast line, at tier 6 i would place the Renowns. Both had major reconstructions, so by the second world war they now had 9 inch belts, 4 inch decks, reinforced bulkheads and splinter decks, 20 4.5 inch DP guns in ten turrets, and could steam at 31 knots. The Admiral class would be a good fit for tier 7. They had a much more effective armour layout when compared to the Renowns (though nowhere near as good as the revenge and QE's) Two extra 15inch guns, and again could hit 30+ knots. At tier 8 in the fast line, i would place the KGV's. 28+knots, effective AA and secondaries, and unlike the previous fast ships, the KGV's would be exceptionally well armoured. The 14 inch guns could penetrate the belt and deck of the Bismark at most ranges, and were noted for being very accurate by surviving crew members of the ships those 14 inch shells were hitting. Tier 9 would be lion, basically a KGV with 9 x 16 inch mrk2/3/4 guns. Tier 10, this is wargaming, they seem to have a good imagination! Maybe a 30 knot montana clone, or even an improved KGV! With the same turret layout,(two quads and a double) but fitted with 16 inch guns. 32 knots, and the size and stats increased to balance it in tier X The Slow line could be where we see our line ships, up to tier 5 we could pick from several ship classes. For me at tier 6 i would place the revenge class. They had similar protection, but were slower then their German counterparts(by 2 knots), same number of main guns. The Revenges were also not upgraded, unlike the following ships! Tier 7 is Queen Elizabeth class. Queen Elizabeth and Valiant were both rebuilt, to a much greater extent then even Warspite! with massive improvements made to their armour, and torpedo protection. These ships also had 10 duel 4.5 inch DP gun turrets added, 4 Octuplet 40mm AA mounts as well as 26 twin 20mm mounts. This was made possible, as like the renowns, they had much more modern, much lighter engines fitted in their rebuilds. Even though these ships still carried the venerable 15 inch guns, they were more then capable of of penetrating the armour of ships such as the Nagato and the Colorado. They could steam at 23.5 knots after their rebuilds. Tier 8 is the Nelsons, Yeah they do 23 knots max, but they also have a very reliable armour layout, and effective torpedo protection. Their 16 inch mrk1 guns were highly effective, with a design muzzle velocity of 860ms with a 930kg shell. Unfortunately they tended to strip the rifling from the barrels, due to the short bodied, long headed rounds hammering down the barrel. The solution was to decrease the muzzle velocity to 800m/s, aswell as to change the rifling. Even at this reduced velocity the shells could penetrate 12 inches of armour at 23km's, aswell as several inches of deck armour. Tier 9 could be the N3, the ship the Nelsons should have been. 9x 18 inch guns, 15 inch belts, 8 inch decks and very effective torpedo protection. The trade off for this brawler would be the 23 knot top speed. Tier 10 would be a super N3, maybe with slightly buffed protection and a 25 knot top speed. Again Wargaming do have active imaginations! Thats just my view. Seems to be a nice progression down each line, and we also get to see most of our favorite ships!
×