BillydSquid

So lets see. CVs are even more rare now due to the nerf and AA buffs so good luck spotting a DD at T8+ DDs still run amok, as you didn't bother to address the biggest issue of detection range vs CAs which are supposed to counter them. Torpedo walls are still a thing in T8+ CAs refuse to push up as Phantom DD detection range is so low they get obliterated by BBs still. Nerf'd CL guns, but buffed DD guns with AFT Yay! Invisible DDs firing at CL range! Not a bad move at all. while nerfing CAs by breaking expert MM, clearly CAs are OP, they're not DDs afterall. Huge buff to the Kututov 19.1 KM 150mm guns? Oh wow, my sides. a 4km range increase, not a horribly imbalanced move at all. Great patch guys, great patch all the really key issues were addressed. And the minor one's like detection and concealment range which would actually shift the poor T8+ game meta away from sniping and Torp spam were saved for later. *sigh*

3000 dabloons for a Hipper camo, lol, what have you guys been smoking? I'd pay a bit for it, but 3000, come on you've not even implemented a the rest of the German tree, or the Royal Navy, milking it a bit aren't you?

I'm in a similar position, I've got 12 points to put into my captain on my Hipper, but I'm a little unsure as how to respec. I'm going for the maximum concealment approach with the concealment mod and specing towards concealment expert, using the Hipper, Roon and Hindenberg (Tirpitz too when it pops up again) as a ambush ships to get the drop on an enemy and hit them with AP shells before disengaging, hopefully it'll allow me to dictate the engagement range to my advantage vs CAs and BBs (of course I'm still screwed if I get spotted by a DD. I'm looking at: Tier 1 : Expert loader and Situational awareness Tier 2: Expert Marksman Tier 3: Vigilance Tier 4: Advanced fire training (Or is survivability a better option on this level? I don't see 3,200 hp going far.) Tier 5: Concealment ( Preventative maintenance is tempting, but I'd rather not be spotted in the first place. For a BB it might be better) Thoughts? I'm not sure about a couple of choices on this line.

I'll take your word on the Roon and Hindenberg, I don't have them yet. But on the Hipper, a T8 CA with 203mm guns it certainly would. The MM puts the Hipper in games with T7 and T8 ships, occasionally T6 cruisers. In a T9/ 10 match you probably wouldn't find it OP as the Hipper is one of the weaker ships fighting in those matches. But at T7 and T8 having the same range as the Kutuzov, but with 203mm guns which fire the best AP ammo in the game? It'd certainly create some balance problems when a CA can out gun a BB of a similar tier.

Just following on from your bold points Kazomir Not really, dodging 20k HP salvos from BBs gets easier if you aren't only 13km away from them. If you got within 13km of a BB you did something wrong, especially if you're broadside on and he's got his guns pointed at you, you're going to come out of that engagement poorly. A BB will want to get within 15km vs a CA and a CA wants to stay out of 14km and not expose it's broadside. Adding a 19km range to most CAs simply shifts the game meta to everyone playing cruisers and spamming shells from long range, replacing BB sniping with CA sniping. I can imagine them with 19km range, yes. That does not mean they will be OP. Shooting at targets 19km away is no easy feat, even for a Battleship. You give German CAs a 19km range it will make them stupidly OP. They're held in check at the moment by thinner armour, poor HE shells and their AP shells being deflected by angling. You give them 19km I will guarantee German CAs will snipe with shockingly high accuracy and rate of fire with AP shells where there is no effective counter, all will have maxed out their concealment with modules and skills, as soon as they spot a broadside BB, which can't dodge as effectively. I'd do exactly that, and I'd be targeting BBs, not a CA or DD. Also increasing the range to 19km would affect shell trajectory, so a German CA firing AP shells will be firing on a flat trajectory at 14km. That's insane! Even a BB can't deflect that if it gets hit broadside by 203 mm shells. You'd have to completely rework the penetration mechanics. Better ability to spot DDs is illogical for a cruiser. If anyone would logically be ablet to spot DDs easier, its the Battleship, since it has higher superstructure thus higher lookout points. Maybe more camo for CAs could be better. Zao and Ibuki can reduce their signature to just under 10k meters. While Aoba, Myoko and Mogami can be spotted from 12-14k meters and they cant really do anything to get more camo. No. This is the current problem in T8 + matches, even if you had better spotting capability on a BB you'd still face the incoming torp spam from Phantom DDs and still be unable to counter them effectively, namely because the nature of BB movement and weapons is geared towards CAs and other BBs, not DDs. Some ships like Yamato have so many secondary guns that they can handle themselves in a pinch, but they're still at a disadvantage vs more than one DD, T8/ 9 BBs have a very tough time. Better spotting vs DDs either from the target Acquisition module stacking with hydro acoustic or a spotter plane, increasing detectability range from the air and sea for high tier DDs allows a CA to counter the DD rush which is endemic, without getting so far in range of a BB that it's obliterated. Increasing concealment doesn't address the problem, as a CA will be detected long before it detects the DD and still get shot to pieces, it also doesn't help as you still can't detect the DD and anticipate where the incoming torps are. Yes a Mogami can be spotted within 12-14km, but my question would be, why did you get that close to a BB? You're going to get hit hard, as I explained earlier. And even with a reduced detection range, you'd still get spotted by a DD anyway, as explained above. DDs dont really need a citadel. Firing AP at them will overpen allways anyways and the only way to citadel a DD will be to fire at it from direct bow or stern. But then again nobody likes to be killed by a single salvo. I think it is very much necessary, DDs have engines, they have magazines, they are considerably smaller. But if a 203mm shell hits the engine block? That shell will detonate. It rewards accurate gunnery, even if the CA has to hit the pow and penetrate through to the stern of the ship to cause a citadel hit, it provides the incentive to aim shots, and it certainly helps CAs at higher levels given they operate more like battle cruisers, than light rapid firing ships, their shots have to count, and the increased reload time makes it less likely a CA will swap shells regularly to engage a DD. Personally I tend to ignore DDs in favour of CAs and BBs where I know AP ammo won't over penetrate, and I don't face an invisible torp spam while chasing them. Nobody knows, Gearing has the same spotting range, nevermind the fact that is almolst twice the displacement of a Mahan, which has 500m less camo range. Given that the Gearing is primarily a gunboat, I sympathise with players who have this ship and get obliterated by CA fire. Their DD's guns don't compare to the multiple 203mm aimed at them and their Torpedoes aren't as good as the ones on the Shimikazea. I think this DD should have it's concealment range kept a bit higher, given that at T10 it's the Shimikazeas which are the problem, not the Gearing. Plus as a gun boat it's supposed to counter torp DDs, but do it without getting targeted by any nearby CA, it'd be worse if the concealment is decreased in this case. Would be fixed if hightier DDs had less camo. Tier 7-8 cruisers need more camo aswell to counter DDs better. Not really, there are two types of DDs Gunboats and torpedo DDs, the former isn't a problem, the later is. Reducing the concealment of DDs across the board ensures that USN DD get obliterated by CAs and the Shimikazeas run amok. Reducing the concealment based on the tonnage, type of DD and size should be used for T8+ DDs it stops WG from breaking the USN gunboat DDs while reigning in the shimikazea without taking the nerf bat to the entire DD line (which at lower tiers it really doesn't need) T8+ CA camo increase won't address the spotting problem as the DD will always spot a CA before it spots them. And a CA doesn't want to get within 10km of a BB, it'll be citadel'd in seconds. As a secondary point, I really want to see the cross section system that WG is putting in. I have a gut instinct that some CAs have a large citadel signature, which is what is really hurting IJN and USN ships which are getting hit in the incoming patch. It's also an issue on German CAs, but less so as their range allows you to avoid the worst of the enemy BB and CA fire, but as their armour is so thin, solid hits penetrate and cause citadel hits far easier. I have the suspicion that reducing the size of the citadel would increase CA survivability, without reducing the damage taken from BB's for citadel hits.

Keep practising, you have to get used to the shell trajectory. If the enemy ship is angled by about 30 degrees then your AP is going to bounce off and cause minimal damage, you might get some partial penetrations where the metal shavings from the armour ricochet inside the compartments causing damage, but the actual shell doesn't penetrate and detonate, or over penetrations. Those would be the hits which do over 590 but less than about 2000. Basically if you can't fire on a flat trajectory and hit a broadside the shell will bounce, the only other way is to use plunging fire. For the Atago's 15.8km range you'd have to be firing shots over 12.5 km away ie: 2/3 of the maximum distance, that makes the shell arc downwards, the AP shells will arc and penetrate the deck of the CA. Otherwise you want to be within 10 km to get the shells travelling almost flat, also aim along the water line, or you'll over penetrate with hits to the super structure, you're aiming at the hull, that's where the citadel is, not the superstructure on top. If you're still having difficulty, just use HE, Atago has awesome HE shells which will do in most situations, but fair warning if you come up against a CA, particularly German CAs, using AP shells effectively you'll be sunk. Alternatively, if you really want to learn how to use AP shells, play as a German CA, they're perhaps the best CAs to learn how to use AP shells. The HE shells are poor, but their AP shells wreck CAs, even BBs if they're not careful and expose their broadside for a long period of time (T8+ CAs specifically). Konigsberg is a good one to learn on, I use the Hipper, but the Roon and Hindenberg are even better.

Noooooope. I'd encourage you to get to T8+ in CAs as the game meta shifts significantly. Even boosting CA ranges to Kutuzov levels at 19km will still leave you out ranged by BBs so it's largely a moot point. Plus, can you imagine a Hipper or other German CAs with 19+ km range? They're already citadel machines which wreck any other CA showing a broadside, a single salvo to an enemy CA is going to net you at least one citadel hit and 6k+ damage from your other shots. Never ever, ever show your broadside in a CA to a T8+ German CA, if the captain is any good, he's going to have AP shells loaded, accuracy mods mounted on the ship and will have all 4 turrets tracking you. I've blown Atagos clean out the water in less than a minute, despite their heavier armour, in my Hipper simply because the other captain got into a broadside duel. At 12.5km you're firing at an almost flat trajectory directly into the hull, with AP ammo loaded you'll be inflicting at least 10k damage each salvo, without citadel hits, it usually doesn't take more than 2 or 3 full broadsides to take out another T8 cruiser at that range. What CAs do need is a better ability to spot DDs and a reduced citadel signature (NOT less damage taken) 1) The first thing is the phantom torp spam at higher tiers, a CA will be detected long before they detect the DD and subsequently obliterated by BB and CA fire, which leads to CAs camping. I'd allow for the target acquisition mod to stack with the hydro acoustic consumable, it's a useless mod at the moment no one will chose it over concealment as it's vital to not be spotted as by enemy BBs. CAs need an option for a spotter plane and the plane needs to be much better by increasing it's detection radius vs DDs. (Can someone please explain why DDs have a lower detection radius from the air than by sea? That strikes me as arse backwards, I think I'm right in thinking that given the numbers I saw on a DD thread, it just seems bizarre and makes the use of aircraft used to spot targets pointless as a consumable for BBs and CAs.) Also why does the T10 DD, like the shimikazea, which has a greater displacement than a lower tier DD have the same detection radius? The above also leads to a desperate need for CVs to be un nerf'd, they provided at least some check on DDs bey using aircraft to spot them. With the mirror MM and nerfs, WG removed the checks which is one reason why we see DD proliferate hat higher Tiers. 2) CAs can currently be citadel'd very easily, I don't like the idea of reducing citadel damage for CAs as a 15+ inch shell is going to cause a lot of damage, but it does seem that T8+ CA's have a very large citadel signature which makes it significantly easier to hit. I'd like to see WG's cross section system, which they look to be implementing in the future, so we can get a better idea of just how large the citadel is on some CAs. But my gut feeling at the moment is that DDs and CAs need a citadel, but a reduced one, or in the case of DDs put back in, but significantly diminished in size so player can be rewarded for good gunnery, not simply spamming HE shells which is the only counter to DDs at close range. I think that retains some balance that when ships close with one another, a BB will have an advantage vs a CA, as the citadel is easier to hit, and there is some risk involved for a DD getting close to a CA, there currently isn't, when a CA can cause a citadel hit. At the moment, there is no decision when it comes to fending off a DD in a CA, it's spam HE shells and keep as far away as possible, more so as the CAs get larger, but lack the corresponding armour increase of a BB making torps extremely dangerous.

I can only speak from the German CA perspective, but the T5 Konigsberg is a great ship and a lot of fun. Nurburg is good, but you'll likely be put into matches where you face T8 CAs and T7 BBs more regularly which the Nurnberg struggles against. Konigsberg is the one I'd go for, and the classes at that level are reasonably well balanced, so it's good that you're not in such a rush to get to higher tiers as at T8+ the current game meta balance is broken at that level, while the repair cost at higher tier is crippling.

I attack other CAs, BBs when the opportunity presents itself, either in support of other CAs or BBs, maybe if a DD exposes itself I'll fire at it, but that's secondary. But as you don't play T8+ in a CA you wouldn't know that there is a shift in game meta at that level.

And there it is, never had more than 60 games at T8+ so you don't see the issue which starts with spamming torps, inability to detect DDs, lack of CVs to spot DDs after the nerf, DD complete lack of citadels, IJN phantom rushing. Mate, if you want to actually want to understand why people are criticising higher tier games, get out of your DD and go play a few games in a CA and see what the current game meta dictates. Then get back to us.

And there in lies the problem, in a DD had no problem spotting DDs, try that in a CA at T8, 9 and 10 you'll get obliterated by BB shells in minutes. There's a reason why high tier CAs do not engage DDs if they can avoid it.

Yes, if the "noob" with 300 games in CAs only is telling you there are issue with only T8 plus games, nearly half of those games being in T8, then it should be apparent that there is an ongoing issue with DDs at that level that even a noob can see. Because there isn't that problem at tier 7-1 No, no CA captain has nightmares about getting citadel'd by a BB it's why most will avoid a straight fight with a BB, because we will lose. Yet at T8 the only ship you have is an Atago, and you have less games than me in it. The "noob" so I think we've pinpointed why you start shouting at everyone when they suggest taking away your favourite seal club, without it, you'd fail hard in T8, 9 and 10 in anything but a DD.

Ha, 41% of your time spent playing DDs the majority of that in IJN DDs. You're not really in a position to be lecturing others on the finer points of teamplay, nor in the position to tell someone who has spent the bulk of their time in BBs and CAs that there isn't an issue when facing higher tier IJN DDs

Why bother trying to focus fire on a DD? You can't spot them anyway, you had absolutely no CVs. That game would inevitably be a torpedo spam fest, we all know what those games turn out to be like, we've seen them enough times.

Lol, DD imbalance won't be fixed by mirror MM, it's a band aid that will eventually fail as more nations are added. The patch will be still born on arrival as there is still no way to detect and reliably spot DDs outside of 5km. It basically fixed nothing.

So you mean like a DD then, got ya. Ps. I don't actually think CAs need a damage reduction to the citadel. I'm waiting to see what the cross section thing WG is working on so we can see what areas of the ship are vulnerable etc, some cruisers seem to have highly exposed citadels, so maybe that should be tweaked, when we can actually see it, but if you're accurate enough in a BB, the RNG gods smile on you and you hit the citadel, a 15 inch shell is going to do a lot of damage.

You can only do that when they reveal themselves, most IJN DDs won't fire their guns, but fire phantom torps. Hence, DDs are vulnerable only when they get into the 5km range or reveal themselves firing their guns. CAs don't drive off DDs effectively if they can't see them, and most in T8+ matches dare not move forward for fear of getting obliterated by BB fire (this is admittedly less an issue with German CAs as they have very long range, accurate guns) There is currently no effective way to spot a DD and target it, CVs got a Mirror MM nerf, DD's got citadel's removed, there's a torp buff incoming, AA looks to be made more effective in the incoming patch. CA's have no way on their own of detecting DDs outside of 6km and obviously don't want to get too close as they'll steam right into a torpedo wall. While I can sympathise with USN DDS which have weak torps, and if they attack DDS without support they get shot to pieces. CAs themselves are fairly well balanced, so I don't think we need to start tampering with citadels and armour buffs etc. But after the CV's got a nerf the check on DDs was removed and now DDs spamming torps are all over the place in higher tiers. There is clearly an issue, and a better way of reigning DDs without hitting them with the nerf bat, because really the don't need a big hit, they're just exceptionally hard to spot without any effective aircraft on the CA or CVs and their lack of citadel's makes even direct hits easy to ignore so there's no risk of getting close and losing your DD, we saw that when someone said that they don't mind driving their DD straight at a BB because the pay off was better to take out a BB. That kind of Kamikaze tactic is being exploited severely by IJN DDs, lack of detection counters in the game and the lack of a citadel on DDs. For T8 this is the situation that we currently find ourselves. As such CAs at higher tier, shift to a completely new play style dictated by the game meta.

T8 is really where the trouble begins, you're going up against T9 and 10 BBs which will obliterate a T8 cruiser in one salvo. Which is not unreasonable given the calibre of shells fired at you. But it still presents the problem of what is the counter to DDs? CVs have been largely nerfed into the ground, so the DD class' biggest weakness, being spotted by aircraft, has been removed as CV aircraft have been neutered through a combination of Mirror MM and nerfs, while buffs to DDs by removing citadels has shifted the meta to the point where as a T8 CA you don't want to engage a DD as you can't spot it. It's just not worth the time and effort. I just got out of a higher tier match where my Hipper and an allied Roon paired up, sunk an Atago while the DD's capped. the DD's got taken out by enemy DD torp spam. We both turned into the enemy torps to track the DDs which were promptly undetectable as they predictably didn't shoot, just launch torps, called in fighters to spot from the single CV which didn't work. Until we got bored and decided to go attack a Tirpitz and Mogami which we achieved far better results by sinking the CA and crippling the BB than trying to chase down a DD which was spamming torps at us. It says a lot about the current state of things when CAs are more effective vs CAs and BBs than DDs which is what they are "supposed" to counter according to WG and other people. Doubly so in higher tiers where heavy CAs suffer from DDs ability to launch torps everywhere with impunity. The DDs which die early are usually the ones that bum rush the enemy line and shoot, which leads to them being targeted by every ship on the enemy team as we all know what a pain DDs are to deal with, and it's not in a good way, it's tedious and frustrating to track an invisible ship, so CAs tend to ignore them until they get detected then throw a few shots at them to keep them away, that's about it.

Ah okay, thanks.

And how much of that is due to bad players bum rushing the enemy and getting shot to pieces? Quite a bit I'd imagine, we've all seen it, the DD which rushes the enemy squadron before trying to launch torpedoes, fires it's guns get's detected and then get's targeted and shot to pieces by half the CAs and BBs on the map. I think your problem isn't the DD being underpowered, your problem is you have a lot of new very aggressive bad captains whose only goal is to launch torpedoes and damn the consequences. The best one's know when and when not to launch torps, and when to fire, when to switch off AA, when to run and how to use terrain. The shift in game meta now means every man and his dog uses a DD because the repair cost is significantly lower and the potential damage and return for hitting with torpedoes is significantly greater. There's you're statistics for poor survival of DDs

Or they eat Torp Spam as the detection range is 6km, 7km for German cruisers using hydroacoustics. Basically CAs don't dare push up as they either catch BB fire and are obliterated, as you said. Or they're peppered with Torps by phantom DDs as there is no aircraft to spot them. So the DD's most effective counter CAs are hamstrung by the inability to spot DDs. DDs have become targets of opportunity when they pop their heads up rather than being actively hunted by CAs. Possibly the most straight forward solution is to un nerf the CVs the Mirror MM was IMO a big mistake, and the incoming nerfs make to look things worse. if DDs can be spotted by CV aircraft then suddenly a CA which can fire rapidly, track a target quickly and has a range of 15km becomes a bit of a problem for a DD. I don't think CAs should be more survivable in terms of armour, maybe not so subject to citadel hits, but then again when you're being hit by 15+ inch shells they're going to take a lot of damage. I'm not really sure on this, I think CAs seem to be balanced in and of themselves when well played, but the suffer as the meta is horribly skewed towards BBs sniping or DDs rushing and spamming torps, neither of which CAs are best suited to. Also, why don't DDs have a citadel? Are we seriously saying that they don't have a magazine or carry spare torpedoes? And yes, it might cause issues of DDs blowing up after a single salvo, but really if you got within 7km of a cruiser and fired your guns, you're just asking for trouble, especially when that cruiser has his turrets on the correct side! That glaring omission seems to make some DDs so sloppy and gungho as being citadel'd just isn't a worry, The above nerfs and buffs have pushed the game to the current state where higher tiers suffer from a proliferation of torpedo spamming DDs and sniping BBs and CAs. That and the insanely high cost of repair if you're not careful.

It's because you've not reached T8 yet, once you have you'll start getting put into Tier 10 matches more regularly where you have to up your game and shift play style significantly or get blown out the water very quickly. You''ll encounter 3 issues, the distinct lack of CVs to spot DDs, DD torp spam and BB sniping combined with high calibre BB shells. 1) CVs and spotting. DDs have a serious weakness to CV aircraft spotting them, but as WG is hell bent on nerfing CVs into the ground DDs go unnoticed and un spotted until they're within 6km and that's after they've launched a massive spread of torps. Once you encounter multiple tier 9 and 10 DDs you'll know what I mean by phantom torp spam. CAs have the ability to cause DDs real problems, with better turret traverse, rate of fire and range. But that's all moot as you can't spot the buggers to begin with. The fighter which a CA can launch is useless, now if the plane could spot anything at a decent range or WG stopped nerfing CVs into the ground so they would appear in the game then CAs would have a functioning role. 2) DD torp spam This links in with the above. Torps have become an area deniability weapon as well as retaining their effectiveness against BBs and CAs, without any ability to spot a DD outside of 6km (7km for a german CA) you are going head on into a wall of torpedoes. It shifts the game meta into sniping. CAs cannot chase down DDs as they can't be spotted and risk eating multiple torp salvoes once their hydro acoustic consumable is on cool down or getting broadsided by a phantom DD while angling against a CA or BB. Some Torps at higher tier will have a range of 20km, and you won't spot them until they're within 5km. this in and of itself is not a game breaking issue, but the first thing you will see (or not see) is Shimikazeas moving forwards and launching torpedoes blindly at the enemy deployment zone. Torp spam. And as there is no way to spot them using CVs or you're own CA abilities DDs rove around with impunity and spam torps all over the place. CAs and BBs react predictably. BBs will snipe, CAs will refuse to push Cap zones as they're afraid of being citadel'd by BBs so DDs rush the cap and spam Torps. The only time they're detected is when they fire, at which point everyone targets them before they disappear in 20 seconds. You can also score multiple hits with a salvo and the DD will not go down (DDs don't have a citadel as WG removed it, I've hit at DD a midships at 7km, with a full salvo and inflicted 6K damage (with AP shells) are we seriously at the point that DDs don't carry torps or have a magazine?) I'm waiting to see how much worse this gets when the survivability expert skill comes in. 3) BB sniping. The current Torp spam has caused BBs to bunch and snipe in several maps, CAs can't move forward without getting citadel'd by enemy BBs so moving with BBs is moot as BBs start bunching to defend against Torp spam. at T7 you're unlikely to have encountered many Yamato's, Montanas, Iowas etc. A Yamato shell on the aft deck of a Hipper will penetrate and knock half your HP off with a single hit. Stay outside 15km? It's a great thing, but when the BBs out range you (Yamato has a range of 26km), as sometimes happens when your BBs hang back and snipe, you become the priority target, any good BB captain will very quickly zero in on an exposed CA and the calibre of shells hitting you, well lets just say your CA doesn't last long against that kind of fire power. Oh and within 15km you won't spot the phantom Torp spam being unleashed by the DDs which can't be spotted due to the lack of CV or decent spotter aircraft. The meta game is currently horribly skewed, it was completely the wrong move for WG to introduce mirror MM for CVs and the incoming nerfs look more likely to push the game to the extremes of DDs rushing or BBs sitting back and sniping, there's no in between, where CAs should sit and as a result CAs are caught between the two.

Yeah, the belt armour is thinner at the extremes of the ship so you're likely to get greater chances of penetration. I've just got the hull B upgrade for the Hipper and damn, compared to the stock hull, the Hipper can really take some hits. I was in a tier x game citadel'd a Mogami and sunk him unfortunately got mobbed by CV torp and dive bombers, knocked out 10, but unfortunately took 4 torp hits to the portside. yet it didn't actually sink me. it brought be to red hp, I had a few thousand left, but I still had enough to take out another crippled CA and fight a DD trying to cap before the game ended. Hipper with the stock hull has some issues being a glass cannon as it's HP is so low, while it's armour is only 100mm the thinnest out of the cruisers I think. So higher tier games you get punished brutally for getting too close, but hull B pushes it up to 43+k HP which is the highest I think. It gives a bit more flexibility in the play style as you can take some some fire while your own AP shells hit a lot harder than the enemy's and at greater range. But yes, any CA giving a Hipper their broadside is just asking for trouble and likely will end up with multiple citadel hits before they can return fire effectively.

Hmmm interesting, would you recommend that for the T8+ German cruisers? Its the biggest issue I'm having with the Hipper at the moment, you can be spotted miles away and ruthlessly pounded by shells, and the Hipper isn't the toughest of ships. I might demount Target acquisition and go for the concealment mod now. But, the Hipper's other issue is the rudder shift is very sluggish, so I wanted to maximise the range I could detect DDs as CVs/ DDs in random can be utterly useless at times for spotting.