BillydSquid

For the likes of the Shimi yes it should get a nerf. for T1-6? No those tiers are actually reasonably well balance. Should a Gearing take a nerf? Probably not, it's primarily a gunboat. Yet the concealment of a higher tier DD is largely the same as a lower tier DD despite the increased displacement. But this links to why a Shimi has a 20/15km range of it's torps? Who thought this was a good idea? A CA will never detect them, even with Hydro acoustic search, which is only 5km. So a DD doesn't want to be detected, well obviously, but what are you suggesting? That there should be no risk of detection? Because at the moment, there's not. Any half competent DD player at T8+ will not be detected for the vast majority of the game. I remember DD players also complained about their citadels so they were removed, what was your point about dying instantly? Welcome to the life of a CA and yet, we still manage to play in higher tier games with BBs. And BB secondary batteries have undergone some changes with the new captain skills.

Nope, but I think if the only way to counter a class is with one of the same class then there's a problem. A soft counter is aa necessity in this game, or we may as well simply enforce Mirror MM on every class. If a single CV couldn't be countered unless there was another CV on the opposite team, then there's a problem with the CV and the CAs and BBs ability to counter it. Games should not be balance around the idea that you absolutely must have a certain class to counter another, some should be better than others certainly. But if the game is reliant on a hard counter as soon as one get's nerf'd the entire game meta collapses. Which is precisely what we're seeing here.

Carriers were nerf'd before I started the game. Mirror MM for CVs was a terrible terrible idea though. And certain BB players here made suggestions which weren't "bash it with the nerf stick" but WG took the subtle approach and nerf'd them into the ground. I don't think restricting DD numbers in a match is the way to go. But this, the current meta is ridiculous and makes T9/10 a waste of time if you're not playing a DD and there's 3 Shimas on the map. 3 big issues. Detection of DDs is terrible, DD concealment is incredibly high, the sheer range of the torps allows for phantom torp spam. Address those and the game can move forward, I don't blame people for migrating to T1-6 or playing a T10 DD, but pretending there isn't a problem is trying to protect one's favourite crutch.

Absolute horse crap. I'm going to leave that there so you can see what a T10 game is like. This is the T8+ game meta. No one will ever try to hunt and chase down a DD, if you played higher tiers you should know that the current game is a chore and a pointless waste of time when there are so many phantom torpedoes appearing out of nowhere at higher levels.

Exactly, there in lies part of the problem, WG nerfed CV into the ground and then imposed mirror MM on them. So the lack of CVs has led to the current proliferation of DDs. So my point of concealment and detection is correct, I didn't specifically mention CVs, but you're certainly right, I've brought up the same point more than once. But, If the only way to spot DDs is if there is an effective CV in the game, who knows what he's doing, then that aspect of the game is broken and in need of rebalancing. What happens if there's no CV? It has happened in several games I've played, if there's a lot of higher tier DDs everything falls to pieces. The ability to detect a DD effectively shouldn't be dependent on the presence of a CV. It should be harder, certainly, but currently it's pointless to even try.

Rubbish. CAs are spotted by DDs which they can't see and then BBs open up on them, and at 18+km their fire isn't going to do much. 4 BBs in the game is not an issue, and I play CAs almost exclusively and Shimikazea and torp spam are a real problem in higher tiers for CAs as well because of the sheer number, high concealment, no effective way of detection and the increased size of the CAs. BBs hit like a ton of bricks and take a lot of damage, but they're slow, have high detectability, slow turret traverse, huge shell dispersion (keeping out a BBs reach is almost impossible, but outside of 18km your chances of being hit drop significantly if you know how to move) slow rate of fire. CAs will never engage a higher tier BB on their own if they've got any sense unless the BB is heavily damaged and isolated. Now an Iowa vs a Hindenberg, my Hipper and a Zao. The Iowa is actually in real trouble here, this happened earlier today, and the Iowa was isolated and very quickly crippled by the Zao's HE shells and AP shells while trying to hit my Hipper and the Hindenberg at 17km, which it didn't have much success at given it couldn't engage multiple targets and the turret traverse was too slow to track the CAs. The Hindenberg and I were actually chasing down a phantom Shimikazea, but gave up as it was a pointless waste of time as it was undetectable and could happily spam torpedoes at us without a care. That's why the Shimi's average damage is so low, because they spam torpedoes using a wide spread with overlapping fields to form a wall. They don't often hit anything, but the off chance is that a CA will take a torp trying to detect the DD, which it will never be able to do as the DD's concealment is so high. There is no point to try and detect a DD, all you get is the risk of being torpedoed by torps appearing out of nowhere as you only have the vaguest idea where the DD is. What's the point? The CAs had more success engaging a BB, the supposed counter to our class, than tracking and chasing down a single DD. This is the current T8+ state of the game. Shimikazeas are a problem, because the current concealment and detection rules allow players to exploit the long range torpedoes. The poor players are the ones that try to bum rush the enemy team and predictably get spotted and targeted by everyone, absolutely everyone on the enemy team, as we know what a huge pain and buzz kill they are to deal with once they start launching invisible spreads of torpedoes. BBs can be countered in CAs with a certain amount of skill and teamplay either working with another BB or other CAs. There is currently no counter to a Shimikazea spamming undetectable torpedoes. I actually just turn around and sail away, I just won't chase down DDs in higher tier games now, it's a complete waste of time. The worst games where there is a complete imbalance in the Match Making with 6 DDs on one team I'll see how things go and as soon as I start seeing walls of torpedoes I'll actually leave the game. I'm not wasting my time weaving through walls of torps for 20 minutes. I've got other ships and the next match is usually better. Edit: At this point, beyond grinding for the Roon at Tier 9 playing higher tier is exasperating and inconsistent. I'm happier playing T5/6 than T8+ unfair to newer players? Maybe, but I'd rather play the game than go through matches overrun with DDs spamming torps.

Why have you put an AA gun mount straight in front of the Hipper's 3rd turret? It's bugged the turret so it won't fire, it used to lift it's guns slightly at that angle, now it doesn't. Why was this considered a good idea? You've now blocked the 3rd turret's firing arc and further reducing it's firepower, forcing a cruiser, which is already extremely vulnerable to being penetrated if un angled to present it's broadside and be easily destroyed to bring it's 3rd turret to bear. Yet it's 4th turret can fire, so clearly it was a great decision to put the AA position directly in front of a 203mm gun when it traverses. Come on guys! Did anyone test this patch before it was released?

Oh for [edited]sake. Thanks WG, thanks a lot.

Just got out a match with 6 Tier 10 DDs on one team, three of them shimas, and 3 on the other. [edited]joke. That picture was exactly the same thing that happened, the DDs then sat around at 15km launching phantom torps through gaps in islands of ice into our side of the map. T9/10 is still a bloody train wreck and likely to kill the long term prospects of the game if it's not addressed as the impetus to grind and spend money on premium time and dabloons disappears if T9/10 are a complete farce, as that is where most of the money is spent considering the heavy time investment required to secure ships at those tiers.

Yep, I've noticed the same, it seems to be turret 3 it won'r ready even at the correct angle, despite turret 4 having a clear line of fire. I think the patch broke something else. It didn't happen as far as I can recall before the latest patch. Should probably report it in one of the patch update threads created by the mods or technical support maybe.

Hipper is really good. First thing to do is upgrade the fire control system. That will push your range to 17.7km. Hipper's got a big citadel and fairly thin armour, in the stock hull you really don't want to get too close. Hull B upgrade is well worth the effort though. Might take a bit of getting used to the shell trajectory when you start using it as it's long range lets you fire on a low arc even at 12.5km. In addition, defiantly get the -20% rudder shift mod as the Hipper is a bit sluggish there, Gun battery modification repair mod and the main turret accuracy mod to decrease shell dispersion so her AP rounds seem almost laser guided at medium range. Other than those three whatever really takes your fancy for the other slot. Hipper is a definite keeper, vs other CAs a Hipper will usually win most broadside fights (except vs other German T9/ 10 CAs) it's rare I finish a match without at least 1 citadel ribbon, highest I've got is 8 so far.

OP Cruisers... Cruisers... OP.. Ps: If you want a very good BB go for the Kongo, it's a Tier 5 beast. It's easy to get and, as primarily a CA player, I've found it a joy to use given it's speed and 21km range guns. Captain skill brings the turret traverse down and after playing as a CA you learn how to angle your bloody armour! Something the Kongo benefits from more than other BBs as it's armour belt isn't the thickest. You can also spot the good BB players from the bad BB players. The good ones always try to angle their armour not sit there like a numpty broadside on, trying to snipe from 20+km. They also know their BBs well. Eg: Tirpitz is a better brawler with very thick belt armour, yet even Hipper AP shells can cause good damage using plunging fire as the deck armour is weak, the better ones will close with a CA to get max effect from their guns, not sit on the other side of the map sniping.

Hunting and spotting are two different thinks, I agree the Hipper is by no means bad at fighting DDs, but it's not great at it. It's HE shells are poor so you have a trade off involved use HE and do less damage, but knock out DD modules. Or use AP and potentially do more damage, but risk over penetration and a poor chance to knock out modules. Their guns, DPM and shell trajectory are all a plus, but vs a HE spamming Atago, it comes up short. Then again you've got to spot the damn DD in the first place, and HAS doesn't help as most DDs will never get within 7km of a CA. The below shows the firing ranges and detectability for various DDs as well as invisible firing. Makes for very interesting reading xPiiRaTeD compiled the below spread sheet not me, it's a lot easier to see the issues with DD invisible firing and ranges when you actually have the data to draw conclusions from. Notes regarding these tables:The "Goldilocks Zone" is the distance that one has to fire without being detected while still being in range of the desired target.DPM values for HE and AP are present to influence ship choice.The "Detectability Range upgrades" denote a ship that has the following modifications:A detection range optimized by the "Concealment Expert" captain perk (using minimum reduction in range, -10%)"Type 1" CamoflaugeIf applicable (tier VIII and above), the "Concealment System" upgrade.The "Firing Range upgrades" denote a ship that has the following modifications:A main battery firing range optimized by the "Advanced Firing Training" captain perk"Gun Fire Control System" moduleIf applicable (tier IX and above), the "Artillery Plotting Room" (modification 1, 16% range increase) upgrade."Fully Upgraded" denotes a ship with both detectability and firing range upgrades. Any suggestions? Errors? Please offer them.Changelog:1/9/2016:Added unique firing detection increasesRemoved the firing range upgrade for the KhabarovskFactored in guns per side to DPMFactored in gun control system moduleFactored in camoflauge1/10/2016:Added premium ships.Added Air Detectability RangeFixed an order of operation mathematical error regarding the calculation of concealment. The math can be explained in this thread.Split the table into 3 for better visibility.Added 2 different categories of the golidlocks zone. When fully upgraded, nearly every ship can shoot without being detected. Adding these two other scenarios gives a better representation of each ship's performance.1/15/2015:Fixed Błyskawica's increase in detection range while firingFixed many (pitifully stupid) spelling errors.

Why? Shimikazeas torps are either 20km or 15km the former with reduced damage. If they want to use torpedo acceleration to increase speed then that knocks their range down to 12km, easily close enough for a CA to be a threat if they have Radar activated. Which is the current problem, at 15km there is no way for anything to spot a Shimi spamming torps into a open lanes to deny an area. USN and VMF DDs are also having a good time spamming HE shells and invisibly firing due to their high concealment and smoke. it may "nerf" that kind of behaviour, but then again a DD shouldn't be able to take on a CA with impunity, which they currently can unless the player is so aggressive or sloppy that they get spotted.

I had a match like this last night vs 2 DDs in my Hipper, HAS was largely useless at spotting them, but prevented me eating any torpedoes despite the walls of torps launched, but as they were invisible firing HE shells an popping smoke I couldn't spot them as they were outside the HAS 7km range and invisible due to concealment to return fire. Finally managed to chase down the bloody Gearing, while the Fubuki was spamming HE shells into the aft deck.

Hopefully, this is by far the biggest problem with higher tier CAs, apart from their large citadel signature, detection and concealment of DDs and would go some whay to addressing the current game meta where higher tier DDs largely run rampant. In fact a significant number are so aggressive in trying to get torpedo strikes they reveal themselves to more than 1 CA and get hammered by every ship in range because they're such a threat. I think German CAs should get Radar as well, same with the IJN, USN, VMF. BUT, it should occupy the same consumable slot as HAS. So CAs have to choose between them. So the consumable choices would go like so: CA HAS/ Radar, Defensive AA/ Catapult plane. (stops CAs having their cake and eating it basically) I think German CA improved HAS is a bit overrated when it comes to hunting DDs, it's very useful for spotting torpedoes at longer range, perhaps less now with vigilance. But as most DDs will try to keep out of 7km and spam torps at T8+ it's not going to make a huge deal of difference unless a DD gets very close, and in T8 the rudder shift on German CAs is so slow that there isn't much of a chance to avoid getting hit by torps at that range. HAS just isn't feasible as a DD hunting weapon in higher tier, I'd recommend jumping in a Hipper and testing at T8 if you haven't already. German CAs hold this odd position where they're not great vs DDs given their HE shells do lower damage, but their shell velocity, turret traverse and DPM giving them technically a big advantage on paper which however doesn't translate into the actual game. At the moment, DDs are a target of opportunity when they're detected for another DD. HAS is what you use if you know there's a DD in the area and you don't want a spread of phantom torpedoes hitting you. Rather they're easily at their best vs other CAs, where their guns seem to score so many citadel hits it's rare I have a game without one or more. My last match yesterday I got 8.

Good, because some of those stats really raised some "WTF, Really?" moments when I was reading them. Tier 8+ Cruisers in particular really have issues at the moment, I don't think piling more cruisers into the game without addressing cruiser citadel size, DD concealment and cruiser detection range is going to lead to anything but more problems at higher tiers.

Yeah, not like sniping is already one of the number one complaints in T8+. This won't cause even more of it. Bravo guys, big round of applause for whichever genius thought up that CA line. The CA class is basically screwed. One of 2 things will happen. The Soviet CAs will be OP caused by their ridiculous range and the proliferation of higher tier phantom DDs spotting other CAs and BBs, which will be snipped to oblivion by Soviet CAs as they can't close the range to attack. Leading to a switch in game meta where everyone will grind the Soviet CA line and snipe from the edge of the map. Or Lots of inexperienced Soviet CA captains will play the CAs like BBs and camp, before getting obliterated by return fire from BBs which out range them, and CAs which have gone max camo upgrade skirt round the edge of the field and avoided the DDs to citadel the Soviet CAs, while if the armour is as thin as you suggest Soviet CAs will be citadel'd by Phantom Invisible firing DDs (at which point I will laugh my arse off). The inevitable calls for nerfs and buffs will follow, WG will swing the cudgel and things will again be screwed. Perhaps somewhat fatalistic, but I have little faith that they will be able to effectively balance the T8+ meta effectively, which they seem to have failed utterly in doing so far and are content to break it even more by the look of this line.

Yeah at low and mid tiers CAs do fine, even DD's also aren't that bad as you never really face a wall of phantom torps, even BBs are balanced, even if they are very strong. I'd say Tiers 1-5/6 are probably in the best state of balance right now. Tier 8+ is where the crap really hits the fan for CAs (I primarily play German CAs so I have less issues due to their long range, super accurate, fast firing guns and high damage AP shells, but even then it's probably the hardest class to use) BBs don't get off easy either with undetectable torp spamming DDs and phantom torp walls appearing our of nowhere, but it's significantly worse for CAs. BBs at least can happily sit back and snipe and the take a lot of damage, the Iowa, Montana and Yamato are absolute beasts, when I spot one I stay the hell away from them or hide behind a friendly BB. A direct hit from one salvo and my Hipper gets obliterated at over 16km away. Oh and I think they nerfed the defensive AA barrage from x6 to x3 on higher tier CAs, it seemed lacking when I was testing it today on the Hipper. Hooray! Not entirely sure what CAs in T8 are supposed to do anymore. I just hang back and snipe other CAs with AP shells.

Pretty much, and most of the issues with CAs stem from the large citadel signature which could be reduced (NOT reduced damage), very high concealment of DDs and the inability of CAs to extend their detection radius effectively, resulting in them being spotted by phantom DDs and obliterated by BB shells and torp walls. Various CAs need buffs and tweaks, like the Mogami's atrocious 203mm gun range. But the above are the 3 big issues which leads to CAs as a class getting hammered so hard in higher tier battles.

No, we'll see massive buffs to Soviet CAs. If you play other lines you're still screwed. I'm just waiting to see how long it takes for them to buff the Mogami's 203mm gun range... not like they could have done the buff at the same time as the Kutuzov or anything, when they knew they were going to nerf AFT and EMM. Either the Balance team is really bad and inconsistent, or they were drunk when they did the balance testing. I should send WG team a bottle of whiskey when they actually manage not to break class balance with a patch, I can't stand vodka personally.

Cool, nice to know. Only 4 more skill points to get to concealment expert. It's tough playing higher tier matches without it in a CA, especially German CAs, I have to be very wary.

1km away my arse. 10km? Okay that's a possibility. Basically it's concealment and detection range. The current game meta dictates that for CAs, particularly T8+ max concealment skills, modules and camos are a must or they get obliterated by BB fire after being spotted by a DD. Therefore CA's can reduce their detection range significantly, some CA lines more than others, giving the impression that CAs pop in and out. They don't they just reveal themselves when they fire and 20 seconds later they disappear. Some can apparently invisible fire after getting their concealment high enough, but I don't think that's possible at T8+ the CAs are too big. But, I'll let you know once I get the Tier 5 Concealment expert on my Hipper Captain.

I don't think it's pay to win as the Kutzov and Atago don't last much longer than a free T8 cruiser, and the Hipper is actually better at sinking them than they are sinking the Hipper. It's that at T8+ CA suffer disproportionately and tend to get their teeth kicked in. They desperately need a buff. Look at av damage, ships sunk, survival rate etc of the ships. CAs will not really affect the WR of a team at T8 The game meta at the moment Hipper, Atago, Kutuzov, Mogami, New Orleans sometimes get put into TX games, you are the whipping boy in that match and unless you play ultra conservatively you'll be obliterated in minutes. Atago has party repair, Kutizov has smoke and 19km range. It gives them staying power and an edge vs the free ships. Hipper is great, but suffers if you don't know how to use AP shells or the enemy angles so your damage will spike and drop. It also has paper armour, which means at T8+ if a BB engages you, you're screwed as you can't penetrate their armour while It's HE shells are poor so spamming them gives limited returns. Vs other CAs though it's a beast. Mogami... yeah, that got hit hard with the nerf stick. Dumbest decision I've ever seen, they should have increased the 203mm guns to 16km to compensate. 15.1km range on 203mm guns is just [edited]insulting. CAs need. Better detection range vs DDs (or increase DD detection range) it's why CAs tend to snipe as they get spotted by phantom DDs. The option for a spotter plane (which just increases air detection range significantly a DDs aerial detection is tiny) Smaller citadel signatures, they feel massive. In T8 the BBs do huge damage even without citadel hits, so CAs get obliterated easily. In general that would address most of the CA higher tier class problems. Individual CAs may need buffs to gun range, traverse etc.

I'd say it's not simply light CAs which will be spamming HE. AFT will affect DDs, with their already high concealment and incredibly low detection range we'll be seeing invisible DD spamming HE shells, I've already encountered it in T8+ games along with the constant torp spam. I've shifted when using the Hipper and sitting back and sniping with AP shells vs CAs and BBs, screw the DD hunting, I'm not getting set on fire and eating torpedo walls, nor risk getting my teeth kicked in by the repair costs. That, or I'm just sticking to T5 Kongo play until WG sorts this crapshow out.