BillydSquid

Neither does burying ones' head in the sand prevent a problem from existing.

Yep it's the biggest issue that's killing higher tier games at the moment. It's endemic of T8+ games that there is likely to be a high number of DDs which will sit back and spam walls of phantom torpedoes turning the game into a dull boring affair as there is little way to counter it unless though sheer dumb luck there's a half competent CV in the game.

Yes sorry, I should have been clearer I target the superstructure with HE to knock out as AA and secondary guns if I have DDs or CV support. I use AP to put plunging on the area round the superstructure rather than trying to hit the superstructure, but aiming at that central area. But I've read that you can use the plunging fire to penetrate the area around the conning tower to hit the most vital parts of the ship, as targeting fore and aft decks means you risk hitting the turrets and barbettes which are heavily armoured. Is that true? Or how can you target BB deck armour most effectively?

I started the game with German CAS, They're definitely not newbie friendly and I spent the first few tiers getting my teeth kicked in, hard, while I learned the basics of the game in a ships which perform best in more experienced players hands. They're not as forgiving as USN and IJN ships. I've got about 150 games in the Hipper and I finally feel that I've got to grips with how she moves and when to get the best out of her guns. Basically in the right situation the Hipper, Roon and Hindenburg will absolutely wreck other CAs and even BBs which give them a clear shot, but I've found that their AP shells need to be placed more accurately as angling causes their damage to drop off significantly and as their HE is quite poor I tend to get peaks and troughs in my damage output as I rarely use HE. (I've finally wrapped my head around damaging the superstructure to make use of the plunging fire mechanic when I can't penetrate the belt armour on a BB, took me long enough)

You get a torpedo, and you get a torpedo; everyone gets a torpedo!

Maybe, but given there were over 6000 people on at that point it wasn't that late. I work in an accountancy firm in London and I have the dreaded commute so I don't have the a lot of time when I get back, maybe I get 2 or 3 games in before I stop for the day, so I don't think it's that late for the UK. Perhaps it is the higher tier in particular, but given we had a T10 IJN, carrier, my Hipper and a Shimi on one side and a Midway, Tirpitz and Fletcher on the other it seemed more like MM had a panic attack and threw us into a game.

I don't think capping is the way forward either, the problem being that we don't address the root cause of the issue and we start shifting to a CV scenario. Capping DDs get's rid of some the 60+ torps coming at you, yet it still doesn't fix why it started in the first place. As a higher tier CA player, the biggest problem which is faced is the walls of torpedoes which appear out of nowhere and the complete inability to spot a DD, while being constantly spotted in return and obliterated by BB fire (you break off and run to counter to maximise the shell dispersion and travel time), but being unable to do anything about it. I've argued extensively that DDs in T8+ games are breaking the game to such a degree that the meta has shifted to the point that playing anything other than a DD is pointless. You're dependent on the random chance that you get a good high tier CV which can mitigate the plague of higher tier Shimi's and Kagreos launching walls of undetectable torpedoes, but that's just relying on blind luck. I keep noting the following issues every time I'm in a Tier 9/10 game. Concealment of higher tier DDs they have greater displacement than lower tiers, but have the same or better concealment. Throw in that both the Shimi and Kagero have 20/15km torps and there's a huge problem and the root cause of torp walls being spammed. It's easier to do that, than it is to play like a DD and risk getting close. they have a detection radius of 5.4km less with Captain skills, how is a CA ever going to spot them or dodge incoming torpedo walls at that range? Personally, nerfing the Kagero and Shimi's torp range to 15/10 km of something similar would potentially alleviate the problem given that it puts them in the same boat as other DDs which are at risk of getting detected by radar or other DDs. DDs I don't think need a universal concealment nerf as it would royally screw over the USN DDs like Gearing and the Fletcher which aren't the problem, they can't launch anywhere near the number of torps as IJN ddS and their gun boat play reveals them as soon as they fire vs a CA not T1-6 DDs as the number of torps and concealment is a lot lower. I can sympathise with USN DD captains, getting spotted by a higher tier CA, especially an Atago or German CA is a nightmare as you'll instantly be hammered with almost flat trajectory HE shells and your torpedoes aren't a big enough threat to deter a good CA captain if he can keep you spotted. Although that does lead me to another issue, DDs should not be able to invisible fire simply popping smoke, it's being abused as a strategy to spam HE shells at close range knowing DDs can't be hit unless a CA sails straight into the smoke and most CA captains won't even with sonar, given the range is only 5km. Hence the radar consumable to counter that and honestly thinking about it it's a bad idea to counter an equally bad idea. (And I keep seeing points made that the Gearing and USN DDs have an atrocious shell arc, I don't play USN DDs so I can't comment, but from my time spent in the Yorck it's a pain to hit a CA, let alone a DD. That needs sorting out is gunboat DDs are to be an effective counter.) I think the only way that this is going to be dealt with is to dispense with the concept of a hard counter, it's causing huge imbalances by magnifying inherent advantages and disadvantages in ship classes. Also, a hard look needs to be taken at why some ships have bat crap crazy stats like vastly increased torpedo ranges, why air detection has been nerf'd (I can guess that it's because the carrier's got nerfed, but they did it in such a way that it's hit other classes too) which larger IJN DDs have higher concealment despite increased tonnage and why? Truth be told I think that WG just hasn't bothered to take a comprehensive look at the classes and the game and thought how things should be balanced then gone in and corrected it across all classes, what they've done is to stick plasters and patches over the holes and hope for the best, which causes more problems as the nerfs and buffs inevitably affect game meta.

lol, yeah Yorck is a piece of crap, I free xp'd my way through it to the Hipper.

Okay, the second turret is probably limited to hull A, I've not encountered problems from the 2nd fore turret so far, just the 3rd aft turret.

Just got out a T8/9 game 5 Kageros on one team and 4 DD's on ours. Torpedoes everywhere. [edited]joke, the entire game consisted of BBs and hanging back and CA's never pushing due to the ridiculous torp spam and risking being spotted by undetectable DDs. Higher tiers in this game are well and truly fucked. If you're not playing a DD go play something else guys, if the match making doesn't smile on you, you may as well just leave the game in the first 5 minutes. WG clearly doesn't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to balancing higher tiers.

See the Hipper Hull B thread, several of us are having real problems post patch getting decent damage and citadels consistently post 0.5.3 Testing on 0.5.3.1 today

Are you using hull A or B? I've not had any problems with that, but I'm using hull B. I think it's the AA placements which have screwed things up.

I'll test the Hipper's citadel ability with AP shells, today. 0.5.3 screwed up the my citadel rate badly it dropped from an average of 3-5 per game to 1-2, sometimes none. I'm thinking it was this issue given that the hits need to be precise so latency will screw the hit scan.

I'm a girl! Guy In Real Life

Good, it's not just me then. I've only got the Kongo so I can't really compare it to any other ship than the Hipper, but at least it's not German CA specific then, it seems more an issue with AP shells in general and penetration. I tried using the Atago, but I don't often get many citadels using her anyway, it's most noticeable in the hipper.

Several of us encountered this as well, you're not alone in noticing it. http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/45209-turret-never-ready-on-hipper/page__p__876656#entry876656 It seems to be caused by the flak position under the guns, it stops the 3rd turret depressing the guns to hit a target inside of 7km. Outside of 7km it still can hit. That's what you're encountering, it's silly though. But sometimes the turret seems to "lock up" and you can't fire even after the traverse takes place, it seems the last patch bugged the ship as from what I can remember this didn't occur before, the guns on the third turret lifted slightly to fire over the flak gun. The pathing seem to have been screwed up in this patch.

Okay, latest game in the Hipper, not my best, but it'll do. I think the issue is the latest patch has caused lag and rubber banding issues which screws up the Hipper's ability to citadel enemy ships effectively more so than other ships, which hurts the Hipper a lot more. we'll see what happens after patch 5.3.1 or if the Hipper's AP penetration got a nerf.

The last few games, I've been struggling to get more than 2 or 3 citadels a game, some I actually didn't get any! Which is a surprise for me. Before patch I got at least 2 every game, the highest number of citadels I've got in a game is 8 pre patch regularly I got between 3 and 5. I can't be sure, but the penetration ability of the AP shells seems to have dropped off, the slightest angle will cause ricochets with minimal damage, even broadside on in some cases, where as before the Hipper used to wreck other CAs. To get consistent citadels you have to be inside about 9km which negates the entire point of the Hipper's range. I' within reach of the Roon too, 17k Xp left, then I'll switch to the Kongo and earn the last 2 million credits there. I can't be sure yet about the Hipper, but I have a seeking suspicion that the penetration rate has been nerf'd. Without being able to data mine the game I can't tell.

Ha! When do DD captains using torp spam make a concerted effort to try and hit something? It's typically, launch in the general direction and hope for the best, usually getting a couple of hits through the sheer number launched, doubling up as an area of deniability weapon. Hence the term spam. If they wanted to actually try hitting something they'd get closer, but that'd involve an element of risk, you're launching from 7km anyway and so undetectable, but you're actually in a CA's gun range, what a terrifying prospect!

You've basically described torp spam. Launch as many torps as possible at extreme range and hope to hit something. You'll be completely undetected and can do so with impunity. If there is only one upside then there'd be no reason not to reduce the higher tier range from 20/15 km to 15/10km for instance. And as it will only affect tier 9 and 10 IJN DDs it's not putting any others at a disadvantage. Do youn have a reason why the excessive range shouldn't be reduced when you said yourself it's spotting range is 5.4km which is before the captain and module effects kick in, it's lower after. It puts them on the same footing as the gearing and other DDs which will get hit by the Radar consumable which DD players are saying will only hit gunboats, not the Shimi and Kagero. This puts them on the same range. Is there a reason you don't want that?

Nope, no limit. As much as I hate the current Shimi and higher tier DD phantom torp spam I don't think enforcing limits is the way to go. Look at what happened when CVs got nerf'd and Mirror MM got put in, it created the current problem. IJN DDs at T8+ should probably get a nerf to torp range, 15/20km is just ridiculous. There are also issue with detection and concealment at that tier despite the increased ship displacement. The radar is a step in the right direction, but the game's reliance on a hard counter system is just causing problems. certain DDs need toning down, CAs need buffs, CVs need Mirror MM removed and the gameplay improved to encourage more people to play them. There's going to have to be a lot of tweeks and balance adjustments to get higher tier to work as it's game meta is currently utter crap. But, I think there's better ways to get higher tier games to be fun than just arbitrarily capping certain classes.

I'm using hull B and the 3rd turret is the issue on this one.

No it's good you bump this until we know what's going on and make WG take note as patch 5.3 screwed a lot of things up I haven't had the issue with the 2nd turret, but I'll test today. 3rd aft turret is a definite issue, makes sense that it can only fire further than 7km as the flak gun would stop the turret depressing to hit closer targets. I think it came with the patch changes which allowed you to fire even if the flak was in the way but automatically raised the gun angle. I didn't have any issue firing at targets closer than 7km before the patch. I just finished a game where I was still unable to hit a target over 7km due to the angle of the 3rd aft turret. I'll check more games tonight.

So the issue was that the DD were getting citadel'd by HE shells and the size of the citadel was the issue. Not the fact it had one in the first place. Yet again, huge over reaction in terms of balance. What I get from the answers regarding DD's being fragile is that Citadel's were removed because they were too fragile, they need incredibly high concealment because they're too fragile even after the citadel was removed, it was the same when hydro acoustic was announced and now with radar coming in I'm seeing the same point come up again. If DDs are so fragile, why is the Shimi the most played T10 in the game? Why is it easier to destroy a CA than a DD in another CA. Frankly it's easier for me to kill a CA than a DD in my Hipper. Now, if a DD has got so close that it's being detected and firing it's guns as well when it's so close to CA, which is free to engage it because the DD has strayed so far from BB and CA support, well it deserves to die because it shouldn't have got into a position like that in the first place. Saying oh well DDs are very fragile, well yes, but because a class is fragile it should not create the situation that the DD should have no risk involved when it attacks, that is the current problem, well played DDs are very hard to hit AP ammo will over penetrate and they are fast, manoeuvrable and can use smoke. They have every advantage to avoid being hit and yet I still see some daft DD captains sailing broadside on to a CA at 6km after firing torps trying to turn towards me, they deserve to die. Just like a CA which is sailing broadside on to a BB within 12km deserves to get obliterated, because it shouldn't have got that close, or a BB which let itself become isolated and ambushed by several CAs and DDs should be sunk because it tried to go solo. I'm sure it is huge fun for you dodging torps. But considering you don't have any CAs above T7 and no BBs above T7 and only two DDs at T7 I think you've not got a clue what actually happens at T9/10 when it comes to facing a DD phantom torp spam at T8+ because you will never have encountered it. And considering the Shimi is a paper ship historical accuracy and goes out the window, as it has had to be sacrificed to stop Yamatos shooting clean across the map for the sake of gameplay.

Right so instead of improving AA ranges allowing CAs and BBs to overlap their fire, (why they nerf'd defensive AA form x6 to x3 I don't know) and increased the arming range of torpedo bombers once the torps hit the water, or allowing CAs a smoke consumable to protect a BBs form aircraft (like the Tirpitz had when it was docked in the fjords) Reducing the number of planes in each wing, maybe the rearming time of aircraft they had options. But, they nerf'd it into the ground and enforced mirror MM. Nope, nerf stick! That's the problem, using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. We've seen this now with the CV nerfs leading to higher tier games being infested with DDs as there is nothing to counter them. If the game is reliant on a single hard counter as soon as it's removed the entire game balance collapses and the meta shifts.