BillydSquid

Or you could take the point of someone which has a lot more games in high tier CAs than you of what the situation is in the game meta in T8+ games. Because your description of game mechanics doesn't match the reality of playing high tier CAs. You can say what you want about game play in a BB or a DD, I'm not going to argue, I don't play them. If you're going to tell me how things are using a CA, I'm going to point out you've got limited experience with anything at T8+ when DDs do become a problem.

Yeah, for CAs it's worse. At least you guys have got the armour to take the hits. It's still a huge pain for any BB, but by T9/10 CAs are almost the size of a battleship, but don't have the HP and armour to take the hits which makes the torpedo walls a nightmare.

Yes, they can which is why the Zao and Ibuki are so good, you can get their detection range down to 9.7km, but German CAs and to a lesser extent USA have a higher base detection range, 14km for the Roon, so even with all the upgrades and captain skills you're still looking at a 10/11km detection range, hence you'll be spotted long before you can detect the DD. Even with German Sonar, you'll only detect things within 5km, which is also why the incoming radar won't fix the core problem, as the Shimi has a torpedo range of 20km and a max detection range of under 6km so it can still launch walls of torpedoes with impunity at ranges which are undetectable to a CA. The Roon basically excel as snipers given their long range accurate guns, it would be better at attacking DDs with their fast firing guns, but it's got such a large detection range and even with all the upgrades it's rudder shift is 9 seconds, it makes it really hard to try dodging torpedo wall, which you won't detect until they're 5km away, and a single torpedo will knock almost half your HP off. Yet you're almost the size of a BB, without the big increase in armour. It's not a bad ship, by any means, but it and other T9/10 ships don't excel at hunting DDs, like Cls did in T1-6, particularly when DDs are able to stay out of detection range, but highlight the CA to enemy BBs. Which wouldn't be so much of a problem, if you didn't have to contend with a wall of torpedoes coming at you from out of no where as you can't detect the DD that launched them.

Why would you turn back? Trying to hit a DD moving away from you in a CA which is shifting back and forth isn't easy. Or are you saying after firing torpedoes you'd actually move towards a CA? Spot range is 5.9km with all the mods, 7.6km stock and very few people go into a T9/10 game with a stock ship and no module upgrades, captain skills or camo. So you are looking at a detection range of under 6km most of the time. Yeah... do you understand what happens in T9/10 when you can't see the DD which is launching the torpedoes? How am I supposed to know when I'm sailing broadside on to a DD when I'll only spot him if he's inside 6km and he'll spot me 12km out in a Roon. I only know where he is once he's launched torpedoes, and in a Shimi he can do that from 15/20km away. even with torpedo acceleration he's still able to launch from 12km while his detection range is 6km and I can only detect the torpedoes inside of 5km. Do you actually play Tiers 9 and 10 in anything but a DD? Or do you just sit back in a BB and snipe the whole match?

if it has a 5.4 km detection range it will, if it doesn't so what? you detected it because it didn't get 10% of it's detection range knocked off, whoop de do. No, I see most DD captains who are any good when they're spotted start zig zagging across the map because it's harder on a CA's gunnery to hit a target which will still outrun it, and with a 2.4 second rudder shift you'll be turning faster and harder, not doing a full turn, who does that when they've been detected? Yeah, because all CAs have a a 35 knot top speed, clearly, and we all sail in a straight line so not to lose speed so we can catch up to that DD. What planet are you living on? I noted that yours are private, and nothing you've said has much baring to reality of T8+ games. So yeah, it's pointless to explain to someone who thinks a heavy CA is an actual threat to a Shimi let alone can reliably spot one, when most will sit out of detection range launching torpedoes the whole match unless another DD gets near.

Not as far as I know, If there's a hack to improve the Roon's appalling 12 second rudder shift I'd like to know. Apparently I have one installed based on how I could turn in the Kongo.

Yep, by a really salty Carrier player. I defended the cap from a DD and a St. Louis in my Kongo. Dodged the torpedoes from the DD and sank him before he could reload, I was in the middle of fighting the St. Louis and had to break off to start zig zagging to avoid the CV's dive bombers, before dodging the incoming torpedo bombers by turning into the spread before cutting across the St. Lois' bow and catching him with a full broadside as he was turning. The Carrier player got incredibly salty and asked what mod was I using, then claimed Hax, telling everyone to report me... I may have started to wind him up at this point as he'd sailed into the map boarder in his Carrier, apparently he took a video replay of my cheating to report me, I'm still waiting.

Close to a cruiser, pft. You can sit 7km away and never risk being spotted. Again you completely ignored the gaping 4km detection difference where an Ibuki is detectable and the shimi is not. So again, what were you doing, or what was the DD doing when you saw the Ibuki coming at you had 4km to react what did you do nothing? If you are spotted by a CA in T8+ you did something wrong. As soon as CAs get spotted they turn away because they can't engage the DD detecting them and are highlighted for every BB in 20km. So what if a DD loses speed? If you turn in a DD you're still faster than any ship in the game and sailing in a straight line in a DD is a shockingly poor choice as I said. A DD sailing in a straight line when detected like a complete numpty makes it easier to be hit than one which is swerving all over the place and turning away from you. It says more about DDs which have poor captains by completely ignoring their manoeuvrability. Yep, 515 Matches and 250+ in the Atago and Hipper so if you know how MM works you'll know T8,9,10 get mixed in the same matches and it's just as likely T8 will be put in matches with T9/10 ships. And if you look, I also have the Roon.

Ha, yeah just gloss over the 4km detection range advantage. If you spotted the Ibuki at 9.7km and he can only spot you inside of 5.9km, less actually with the camo I believe, what were you doing in the time it took for him to cover 4km so he could detect you? Sitting there like a numpty? Or sailing broadside on to a CA to give him the biggest target to train his guns on? Bad DD players get sunk because the tried to rush the enemy team, don't know their detection ranges, or don't have situational awareness. Any DD captain with a brain isn't going to hang around for a T9/10 CA to close 4km with him, if he even knows what direction the DD is, rather turn away and launch torps, if he hasn't already, while the CA captains are going to be obliterated by BB shells as the undetectable DD has now highlighted them to the entire enemy team. No half decent CA captain is going to blindly sail round in circles trying to find a DD which is outside his detection radius, while he's highlighted to the enemy and likely to get hit with shells and torpedoes. Most will try to put as much distance between them and the DD until they are no longer spotted. The only risk to a DD is another DD spotting them, that is the only time a CA will be a threat, unless the DD in question decides to fire it's guns, I don't know why it would if it's a Kagero of Shimi. Edit: and what are you talking about regarding manoeuvrability? It's rudder shift is 2.4 seconds vs 7.6. Wow the turning circle is almost the same, since when does anyone see DDs doing doughnut turns when they're spotted in front of a CA? The only thing you see is a DD putting as much distance between it and the ships that had the luck to spot it.

I hate to say it, but increasing sonar wouldn't make a difference. Initially I thought it would too, but it's the same problem with radar. It's use is so limited by range or time that it's so situational to be almost useless as a counter outside of very specific situations. I've used it when I'm moving through a channel, want to make sure a DD isn't hiding behind an island and to finish off crippled DDs that have tried to hide in smoke. (I was very lucky that they were badly damaged, I was the only one left standing, and they had just missed with their torpedoes, I was undertaking a Banzai charge in the hope I got them before they reloaded!) The big problem with radar and sonar is that it leaves the 2 biggest offenders untouched. The Shimi and the Kagero, both of them can launch 15 torpedoes at a range of 20km. 20km, seriously? WTF? No other DD can launch this many with that range, they do the most damage, they're faster at 67 knots, so torpedo acceleration was an amazing screw up giving them 72 knot speed torpedoes with a range of 16km or 12km which still out ranges any other DD apart from the Gearing which has fewer launchers, does less damage and who's torps are slower. It makes the walls of torpedoes a nightmare to dodge. Throw in that the Shimi has a detection radius of aprox. 5km, so you'll never see the damn thing before it slams a wall of torpedoes into you anyway, means that even if you extended the radar or sonar to 10km a Kagero or Shimi can happily sit at least 2km outside your detection range and happily spam torpedoes into you, which you won't see coming, and you'll never be able to target the DD as he'll simply keep the distance. You see it in every T8+ game if there are Kageros and Shimis playing, walls of torpedoes appearing out of thin air and there's nothing you can do to respond or counter. I know that some people will say, oh well there's risk for the Shimi or Kagaro too. Sorry but no, if you've got so close to a CA with that 20km range advantage you're a moron. The best captains I've seen know exactly what the detection range is and they'll spot a CA long before it can spot them, sit outside it's detection radius, wait for it to engage or straighten out and launch torpedoes from 7km then break off in case the CA turns into them to slip through the gaps, you might catch a fleeting glimpse of the DD as it runs off, but good luck catching it as you've got 15 torpedoes to deal with, oh and you've now been highlighted too so enemy BBs are now firing at you. And if there's another DD launching from a perpendicular angle? You're [edited] 2 torpedoes in a T9/10 CA you're either sunk or so crippled you're out of action. I know what people will say "well a CV will counter it" CVs are very uncommon, it relies on a halfway competent CV in the game, someone who actually wants to help the team not just throw all his aircraft at a BB because he gets more points that way. It's just blind luck really. More than anything the Kagero and Shimi need the range of their torpedoes nerfed to the same level as other DDs approximately 10km, plain and simple. This is the most egregious imbalance that is causing walls of torpedoes when combined with higher tier DD concealment. In no other tiers does this happen, it only starts in T8+ that I'd do as a matter of priority before balancing radar around it. As currently, radar is not likely to slow the problem down.

Couldn't agree more. I play CAs almost exclusively, I'm playing in the Roon at the moment gathering xp for the upgrades, and the level of torpedo spam is ridiculous. In the Hipper at least the rudder shift allowed you to dodge some, but the amount of torpedo walls was still ridiculous. Saving grace with German CAs is the huge range. I can push the Roon's range up to 20.7km with main guns that fire 6 salvos minute I'm more than happy to sit at 17/18+km and snipe more accurately than any BB can. Because getting close with phantom DDs running around means I'm looking at a repair bill of 167,000 unless I play extremely cautiously. Edit: That and higher tier CAs seem to have a huge Citadel, so no CA ever wants to get close unless they have really high concealment like the Zao.

Thing is, that they insisted on bundling them with doubloons, premium time and in doing so hugely inflating the price. I'm happy to drop money on a ship I'd really enjoy like the Tirpitz, but for the price they were asking? Nope, not a chance in hell. It's like the permanent Camo for the Hipper and other ships, would players spend money on it? Certainly. Would they for 3000 doubloons? Not a [edited]chance. They could put permanent camo with no bonus for a very cheap price in doubloons a couple of pounds equivalent and at least a portion of the player base would buy them, simply for the looks, but they don't. This is the problem that I see, WG is over pricing their product to the point where players will refuse to buy it, treating part of the player base like a cash cow annoys them, they can hype it all they want, but if they price things so high only a tiny fraction will buy the premium ships, then it simply defeats their own marketing and pisses everyone off.

Well it's not surprising, it's not immediate I believe, I think it's only after the match does that take place. I've had that kind of encounter only once, I turned hard to avoid incoming BB shells the Gearing hit my broadside, it happens sometimes, rarely do I get people getting pissy nor do I get angry and start swearing in chat, most of the time people say sorry or just ignore it and that's that. The Gearing decided to start shooting me, it wasn't accidental, set my CA on fire and I lost around 10k hp, I didn't want to use my repair in case I got hit with enemy He shells. He started bitching on the chat about looking where I was going, so I opened up on him at point blank range and sank him. Team killing is a [edited]move, but some people really ask for it. I also didn't get highlighted pink, probably because I went on to sink a Zao, so there might have to be consistent team killing to turn pink, not just one off accidentals or because someone is behaving like a [edited]and get's sunk.

Yes, I don't know where I got 8 inch guns from actually, maybe I was thinking of the HSF Cruisers rather than the Battle Cruisers which engaged Beatty. I'm not really sure. Although my point does still stand with regards to why the RN held fire. The ships were moving parallel to one another, so even with a small advantage in range, the RN Battle cruisers were able to hit the German battle cruiser squadron while being our of range. I agree that it if the situation had been different, ie: steaming towards one another then the small advantage would count for little, but a situation where it actually could be used and maintained effectively for a longer period by maintaining the full fire of the RN's guns and limiting the German's ability to reply at all seems odd. Possibly it was a disadvantage in visibility.

True, the German HSF tactical position counted against the HSF, silhouetted against the setting sun, while the Grand Fleet was sailing against the dark etc. But beyond the tactical limitations I'm making specific reference to the way the gunnery on the RN ships was directed, notably on Battleships and Battle cruisers, using an officer to direct and spot enemy ships and relay positions to the guns to maximise the effect of co ordinated salvo fire from the RN. However the range finders of the HSF were more accurate than those of the RN, we know this by looking at the technological limitations of the equipment mounted on the ships. So individual HSF gun pairs were more accurate and could track targets quicker, yet lacked co ordination to bring the ship's full weight of fire to bear as quickly as the RN. It was the centralised gunnery control which could spot the fall of shot from salvo fire which was better on RN Battleships, to straddle a target with fire and adjust to narrow the fall of shot, which again plays to the RN's position of numerical superiority and weight of fire which it could direct in a battle. . Although we're just talking about Jutland here, by WW2 the German and British had made modifications and additions to address the failings exposed at Jutland.

Which is exactly the manoeuvre the HSF used at the Battle of Jutland when they pursued Beatty's Battle Cruiser squadron and ran straight into the guns of the the RN Grand Fleet. To Sheer's credit, he knew he was going to be annihilated by the fire power arranged against him, numerical superiority and tactically Jellicoe had crossed the HSF's T. But being able to pull off a 180 degree turn in low visibility, setting sun, in the middle of battle with battle cruisers weighting thousands of tonnes is quite a feat. The same with Jellicoe and the RN being able to deploy en mass under fire from the HSF to cross Scheer and Hipper's T twice, it could have been a complete disaster. I think Jutland showcased quite well the deficiencies in both the RN Grand Fleet and the High Seas Fleets quite well. Beatty's Battle Cruiser squadron took most of the loses, why Beatty closed to the German 8 inch gun range I don't know, the RN Battle Cruisers out gunned and out ranged them with 11 inch guns and had comparable speed so there was no reason for Beatty to have closed to the range where the German cruisers could reply, he also left the 4 QE class fast battleships behind, reducing his numerical advantage from 10 to 6 vs the German's 5 perhaps he was trying to force the engagement before the German cruiser squadron could retreat? Secondly I keep seeing in the thread that German ships had super amazing armour which could bounce 15 inch shells. While it's certainly true that German ships were better compartmentalised and could absorb more non critical damage and had heavier armour. It's not true that German Battlecruisers had some godly ability to deflect 15 inch shells. We know that the Royal Navy was having big issues with it's AP shells, the chemicals used in the detonator were unstable, causing premature detonation upon impact. The reason the HSF didn't suffer such significant loses was due to the inability of the RN's AP shells to detonate after penetration, the shock of hitting the armour caused detonation, before the fuse could activate and the shell penetrate, HSF AP were more effective due to the charge being TNT, which didn't prematurely detonate. But this goes hand in hand with a design philosophy difference. RN Battle cruisers were never designed be part of a main line of battle and had thinner armour, but significantly larger guns, aiming to outgun anything they couldn't outrun. Beatty's Battle cruisers ran straight into the HSF, a fight they were woefully ill equipped to handle, and as they'd strayed from the fast battleship support they were at a huge disadvantage. Which was what the HSF had been trying to achieve strategically, without running into the RN Grand Fleet. HSF ships could take the hits, but couldn't reply with the same level of fire as the RN battle cruisers. Beatty's Battle cruisers also prioritised rate of fire over safety protocols when handling cordite charges.... yeah we don't have to guess much to imagine that this wasn't a good idea, the cordite was also less stable causing massive potential for flash fires travelling back into the magazine. Yet, HSF gunnery was inferior to the RN's which as you noted, the German admission that the Battle cruisers were in no state to engage again and the sheer number of hits received from the Grand Fleet's main guns. But the HSF was more effective in finding the range of a target, even if it strained the crew using the range finders, something that seems to have carried through into WW2 most evident in the engagement between Hood and Bismark. I really hope they put Battlecruisers into the game, it's why I like using heavy CAs and BBs like the Kongo rather than BBs which feel so sluggish.

Nope, that is not accurate in T8+ games. Tiers 1-6 the CAs are small and nimble enough to dodge incoming BB fire so long as they're far enough away, the same with torpedoes. Although I've dodged torpedo bombers and dive bombers in a Kongo while fighting two CAs. Kongo is kind of the exception that proves the rule when it comes to T1-6, it's a really good BB. However, once you hit T8+ in CAs things change drastically, you're now in heavy CA territory and these ships have a turning circle of 800m+ not 500m like they did in T5, their rudder shift is measured in double figures, and even with the -20% rudder shift time module they're still hitting about 8/9 seconds before their rudder shifts sufficiently to turn the ship. They handle more like battleships, yet they don't have the corresponding increase in armour, even if their HP increases. It makes them extremely vulnerable to torpedoes and being detected to phantom DDs which they can't spot and are targeted by BBs, which out gun, out range and have heavier armour. They're good ships, I have the Hipper, Atago and Roon. The Zao, Hindenburg and Des Moines are also supposed to be very good. But the way the game meta is skewed currently towards undetectable DDs spamming walls of torpedoes and spotting CAs which leads to sniping from BBs 20km+ away CAs shift their tactics. With a Roon I can extend my range to 20km, my guns are more accurate and fire faster. But I'm also a much bigger target, without the armour to deflect 16/18 inch shells coming at me. In a Roon I really don't want to get close to an enemy, unless it's a spotted DD, when all my advantages push me towards fighting at range, where BB shell dispersion is significantly greater and most CAs can't hit me. It's like the Zao, it's got shorter range but really good HE shells and for a T10 CA, good concealment. It's a huge pain for a BB given I've seen a Zao appear from behind an island and ambush a BB, it's got a 12.5km spotting range, stack the concealment mod and the concealment expert captain skill and you're looking at a -22% detection, add in camo and If I calculated correctly it's detected only 9.375 km from a target. Of course, it's a big reason why CAs at this level don't want to get close to DDs as their concealment is nullified and they're targeted by BBs, so they're main advantage is lost. It'd help if CA could actually detect the bloody DDs launching walls of torpedoes, but as they currently can't no CA dares go near, unless you want to risk a repair bill of 150,000+ It's just not worth the risk and it's bloody frustrating dodging torpedoes from a "target" you'll never detect, but has highlighted you to the entire enemy team.

The Hipper is good, the 0.5.3 patch hit it hard with the rubber banding and micro lag, it made it impossible to reliably citadel anything. 0.5.3.1 seems to have sorted it though. Roon is very good, she turns like a pregnant cow though. Handles more like a Battle cruiser than a CA. Yet her turrets turn faster and shell dispersion is far tighter. I've only had my first game in her and I citadel'd and destroyed an Amagi, I know Amagi has poor armour for a BB, more like a Battle Cruiser than a BB. DD's are still a problem, in a CA the size of the Roon, I really don't want to get anywhere near them as I'll be torpedoed before I even see the DD

Pretty much nails the biggest problems in T8-10 with DDs I'd only add that if the only way to counter DDs is with a CV then that aspect of the game is a failure. It's reliant on blind luck, and as we saw when CVs got nerf'd and their numbers dropped the DDs got completely out of control. WGs use of hard counters simply magnifies the imbalances and is leading to problems. For instance, a T9/10 CA has more in common with a BB or battle cruiser than it does with a T5 light CA. Yet, they are supposedly the hard counter to a DD, which it can't possibly function as under the current game meta. Soft counters have got to take a larger role in the game to mitigate the inherent imbalances between classes, as a hard counter needs only to get a nerf and the entire house of cards comes down.

No you brought it up as a way to illustrate that the numbers of people playing the ship does not determine whether it is OP, but rather what is fun. It failed, because they are not the same tier and so the player numbers and MM will cause a statistically different result. It has little to do whether it is fun or not. To make a rhetorical point, why do CAs never move in front of a BB? Because they will be spotted by a DD which is completely undetectable and destroyed. For a class which is designed to attack and hunt down DDs CAs are terrible, but are better at fighting BBs than the class they were supposed to counter. Your assertion that the side which supports it's DDs will win, no they won't you do not know what the game meta currently is in T8+. At T1-6 it's true, but not in T9/10. No CA will get close as they will be in range of the massive walls of torps, even if they are spotted, CAs will be spotted themselves and targeted by BBs and as the wall or torpedoes is coming in, they can't dodge. The only variable is whether the Shima's and Kageros screw up, if they don't it matters little whether there are gun boats spotting them or not, the range of the torp wall is such that no CA captain in his right mind will put himself in a position and expose his ship to that level of risk required to target the DDs, while the gunboat DDs will be spotted by the Shimi's and obliterated by enemy CAs. He who fires the most torpedoes wins. What you are illustrating is a fantasy, it does not match the reality of the situation in higher tier games. I'd recommend you play a couple of hundred T8+ games in a CA and come back after. If the game is reliant on CVs to stop DDs running amok then that aspect of the game is a failure. It's reliant on blind luck that a CV will be present and as such is a terribly balanced part of the game. No other class has that kind imbalance, not CAs, BBs or CVs The match making changes nothing, it might be poor, but it simply does what it can with what it has to work with. Again, look at the numbers of Shimi's played. They outstrip the combined numbers of some other tier 10 ships combined. It's a symptom of the problem. Unless you intend to limit the number of DDs and cap them, which doesn't get to the root of the problem either, then all you're doing is tinkering round the edges and wasting time, because nothing has been done to address why the Shimi is played more than any other ship in it's tier.

No, that's [edited]reasoning and you know it. A New Orleans is a T8 and a Des Moines is a T10 they are not comparable, a T10 will regularly face T10 torp spam and a T8 less so due to the MM. Also the population with T10 ships is decidedly lower compared to T8, yet the Shimi is used more than most T10 ships combined. The argument has always been made, that it's not op because it has average lower damage, it has lower average survivability etc. Yet more people apparently are willing to play a ship which is average, in such numbers it outstrips the use of most T10 ships combined and not the ones with the highest average damage. I don't think I'm the only one which can see that as complete an utter gibberish in terms of analysis of the data. If the point is made, because it's more fun, then why is it more fun? Because you don't have to spend 20 minutes dodging walls of torpedoes in a DD, which you do in a CA or BB in T9 and 10. And no, the high number of DDs in a game is precisely the problem, you can have 6 Shimis and Kageros on each side and it will still be a dull tedious and frustrating game it will simply revolve around sniping and who's DDs are taken out first. Once that's decided the team with the most remaining DDs will usually win.

What do you want to do with the commander? Are you going to move him to a different ship as you move up the tiers or keep him in the Konig and Nurn? At T5/6 I'd just use T2 and 3 skills rather than T4. AFT only becomes useful once you hit the Roon and Hindenburg as their AA got buffed last patch. It's so so on the T8 Hipper. For 2 and 3 depending on what you already selected. T2 Expert MM might be useful (I've not used the Konigsberg in a while so I can't remember turret rotation times pre patch, but for tracking DDs it's useful) Last stand might be worth it as from what I remember the Konigs and Nurnberg seem to have their rudders and engines constantly disabled by a strong breeze and you don't want to be stuck not moving with their armour. Maybe incoming fire alert if you've been having trouble spotting incoming shells, but I was usually okay. T3 High alert is good as is vigilance. I'd go for vigilance personally. Unless you want to go for T5 concealment expert and need a T4? If you do then AFT or survivability expert, either one will do. It's picking the best of a bad bunch here, none of them really benefit the Konigs or the Nurnberg a lot.

We should be thankful that MM has been significantly improved in this latest patch, where DDs are now kept in check... along with everything else apparently. Anyone else got shots of amazing MM in action, I don't know what's worse the games with 6DDs of the ones with 3 on each side?

Rubbish. If you're going to use average statistics (which are never ideal when used for statistical analysis) don't cherry pick. And don't conflate tiers 1-6 in this discussion as we all know that it's T8+ that DDs become a problem, lower tiers are more or less balanced and the damage output is significantly lower in lower tiers in part due to a proportion of of new players which end up dying very quickly, have poor gunnery skills and are learning. The biggest issue here is the Kagero and the Shimi, nothing else; or do you see T5 Kamikazes often in T9/10 games? Or walls of torpedoes appearing out of nowhere in Tier 5 and 6? If the Shimi is so average in terms of damage and survivability why is it the most used t10 ship in the game? More so than Yamato. It has a 4:1 ratio vs the Gearing, 2:1 vs the Zao, 3:1 vs the Des Moines and 4:1 vs the Hindenburg. Clearly lots of people want to play a ship which is so decidedly average in terms of damage and survivability that they get obliterated in minutes of the game. That's the only obvious answer! http://warships.today/vehicles/eu Or we could cut the horse crap and face the facts that the Shimi and to a lesser extent the Kagero have become the go to ships for T9 and 10 for players to exploit broken mechanics and ship balance in the game, because it's easier to get better results and the risk and cost of playing such a ship is decidedly lower than playing a Yamato, or any other BB or CA at T9 and 10. Hence the flood of new and "noob" players who xp their way up to the Shimi and Kagero without touching another ship class or even a different line, because it's the easiest most effective ship to use. Unfortunately as they have no experience in any other class, or line, they tend to be utter crap and die, although that doesn't prevent them spamming walls of torpedoes every game they get into and making everyone else's a misery if they're in a BB or CA. If we get past the above (which is all smoke and distraction from the real issue) then the only discussion to be had is 1) whether we include a cap on DDs, which I don't think is the way forward given it is only really the Kagero and Shimi which cause problems rather than the Gearing and other DDs. 2) How should the higher tier DD torp spam be addressed? Concealment and detection tweaks for the higher tier DDs in T9/10, range nerf to Kagero and Shimi torps? Radar, is it going to be effective, how will it impact other DDs? Those are the only two things which we have to discuss, all the rest about which tier and class has the greatest averages, bringing up tiers 1-6 is all background noise, distraction and bloody waste of time.

Not really, tiers 1-6 are reasonably well balanced, Soviet DDs are very visible and you barely see them in games, USN DDs are largely gunboats in terms of gameplay and their torpedoes are limited. Tweaks here and there are needed, but the biggest problems are the Kagero and Shimi. 20km torpedo range is utterly ridiculous when no other ship has more than 10km It's also a big issue of why the likes of the Kagero and Shimi have better concealment than a lower tier DD when their displacement is greater.