BillydSquid

The same was said when Hydro acoustic was brought in, the death of DDs was predicted. Yeah, that didn't happen did it? You know why they've got the worst survivability rates? Average statistics, they are crap and stupid, don't use them. You're equating lower tier DDs with a Shimi. In lower tiers they've not got the modules, captain skills and more often the players are new and don't know the mechanics of the game, by the time you hit the Shimi they will have all the benefits of concealment, although you can't account for crap players which will get themselves killed by bum rushing the enemy team. Statistical interpretation using a single average across an entire class of ten tiers is a fool's errand as are the people that use them. Their stealth doesn't change they're still undetectable outside of 6km, you just can't sail around with impunity and spam torpedoes, occasionally a CA might activate Radar or if it's buffed HAS, Radar lasts for less than 30 seconds I believe, limited in use and has a recharge rate of 5 minutes. It won't affect survivability against co ordinated torpedo attacks, it still won't spot torpedoes, you might be able to spot several DDs for less than 30 seconds, 20 seconds I believe. If as a DD you can't adapt to 20 seconds of exposure, that player is crapand needs to get better. vs 2 or 3 DDs launching torpedoes at a T8+ CA with a turning circle of 800m at perpendicular angles, that CA is still screwed, it's going to take at least 1 torpedo. So you had a lucky game with a CV spotting you, great now we can only hope that the other games will have a competent CV or DD interested in spotting, if a CV is even in the game at all. Considering Radar and if it's buffed Sonar doesn't give constant spotting ability, what was your point? That a CV can spot? Yes this is already known, the issue is finding one and one which will actually spot instead of being a damage whore.

No, it highlights current problems in the game by making them more obvious. If there's no terrain to hide behind then CAs in particular are open to huge damage inflicted by torpedo walls which can be almost impossible to dodge, and you can't spot the DDs launching them if your DDs bugger off and decide to play grab arse with a BB, so you're screwed. It's what I've said before, if the counters to a problem are reliant on simple blind luck then that element of the game has failed. It's what we saw when CVs got nerfed into the ground, DDs got out of control as there was little in the way of effective other counters, and no, "team" work in random battles is not an effective counter, it's pure luck that the team will work together or listen to each other. Radar and sonar seem to have helped looking at Flamu's videos, if that is spread across all CA lines in T8+ like Huydo acoustic sonar is then it gives CAs a means of countering DDs which they currently can't without a suicide run. It's never be effective as a CV or a DD played competently given the limited use, time, recharge and range, but it's something a decent player can work with. If we still have walls of torpedoes from Shimis then the problem is with that DD rather than the entire DD class, we already know T8+ is where problems start, T1-6 is reasonably well balanced at the moment. I'm hoping WG will make spotting rewarded in updates soon, as I've elaborated on before. It might stop DDs and CV behaving like damage whores and foster better "team" play even among random games if players are rewarded for playing in a way that benefits the team than just themselves.

If, it's a big if in random games. The DDs that do try to spot and screen CAs vs enemy DDs I actually don't mind getting close and risking taking a torpedo. Sitting back and sniping in a Roon is boring, yeah I've got a range of 17.8km but closing to within 15km is far better and more fun. That all goes out thw window when your team's DDs are playing grab arse in the corner with an enemy BB. I get what you're saying, team work is key, I agree. What I am emphasising is random is random. I can ask so many times in chat for a DD to help spot and I've no idea if someone will pay attention, it's the nature of random battles. I actually agree on the spotting point, it's why CVs and DDs often behave like damage whores in random battles. If spotting gave a point reward for each new ship spotted even a small one, or +15 for each second you keep a new ship spotted, caped at say 150pts or something, I'm coming up with it off the top of my head, it'd encourage "team" play. Same with the CV fighter loadout, it's currently the poorer choice for CVs. It's so useful for me when I'm playing the Roon to have fighters spotting and engaging enemy bombers, but it's rare you get a CV with a fighter loadout. Again to the point of team play, it's a random battle and a big if. If the game is solely reliant on a CV or DD to counter enemy DDs then that aspect of the game has failed. The latest patch seems to have addressed the wildly different DD numbers, the last 15/20 games have been reasonably well balanced in terms of distribution. Now Radar and the potential buffs to Sonar, if it's given to all CA lines will certainly level the playing field and mitigate the randomness of games and DD high tier dominance. It'll never be a counter to DDs like a CV or DD will be, which is fine, but there are situations when a CA is forced to engage a DD on their own. Stating well you have to work as a team isn't going to cut it in the actual game given the practical realities don't allow for exclusive counters to be effective every time given the random nature of games and the composition of teams. Hard counters which you've mentioned simply exacerbate existing imbalances.

If you're in a higher tier CA you really want it given the number of torpedoes around in those games and their high damage potential. DDs it can be useful I suppose, but I can't imagine you'd find as much use for it.

I'm not sure that's a good idea, as it'd mean Russian DDs get hit really hard, they've already got weak torpedoes, so they're more reliant on guns. They might be tough for a DD, but if a CA can keep them spotted, they're in trouble. As to the lack of CVs in higher tier, yeah that's the most glaring problem at the moment.

Not really, you know the games in islands of ice when DDs sit in the middle of the map and spam 20km torpedoes into the general area of the enemy team, 1 shimi even 2 is manageable, but once you hit 3 all hell breaks loose. If you've selected 15km torpedoes, excluding torpedo acceleration because it doesn't make a huge difference 5kt in this senario. Then max detection you're undetectable outside 6km, so you can launch torpedoes miss the target and hit the enemy ships behind with 10km headroom. It's why the Shimi is so good when it comes to area saturation. We're not talking of situations where lines become blurred and risk hitting your ownside, rather the behaviour which you see in the initial stages of the game when multiple Shimis rush forwards and launch a wall or torpedoes at no risk to themselves and the game devolves into 20 minutes of weaving through torpedo salvoes. Then the system of hard counters has failed. If you're reliant on a CV to counter a DD then that aspect of the game has failed. I've had more than enough higher tier games where there is no CV and if there is more that 3 DDs then the it's impossible to counter the DDs, exacerbated by the inconsistent MM and if your DDs are competent and even try to spot enemy DDs rather than rush off and attack BBs. It's blind luck. If a soft counter system is available, which I think Radar is more than a Hard counter that goes at least some way to mitigating DDs in higher tiers, it doesn't have to neutralise them like a CV or a competent DD does, just allowing a CA to spot a DD hiding inside 9km is a huge advantage considering aimed torpedoes are usually launched between 6/7km You can probably answer this given you'll have more contact with the devs than the rest of us. Is Radar limited to Soviet and USN CAs only or do the German and IJN get a weaker version of radar? Will Hydro Acoustic Sonar be buffed across all lines? If yes to the above, it'd go a long way to give CAs a thing to fight DDs in higher tiers, as their current ability set up is very situational.

Unfortunately if you're relying on other classes like CVs to keep another class in check then that element of the the game has failed. We've seen it when CVs got nerfed, DDs got completely out of control. Relying on simple blind luck that a CV will be in the game, let alone play competently or want to spot, is a frankly a disaster. Hopefully the buffs to hydroacoustic and the incoming radar will mitigate high tier DDs. Hopefully the IJN and KM get radar in the same way that the USN and IJN got weaker versions of sonar compared to the German cruisers. If not, then the Shimi still needs a nerf, namely the ridiculous torpedo range of 20km, which lets it saturate an entire are. It can completely miss it's intended target at 6km (currently undetectable) and still hit a target 5+km behind with no risk to itself. No other DD can do that. hence we see Shimi's popping up everywhere.

And why was that? Because they were getting penetrated by HE shells which was daft. But, likely a side effect of the over match mechanics which were removed to prevent 18 inch shells wrecking everything even if they over penetrated. But this always happens, a lot of pissing and moaning about how OP or UP something is (while some just want to bury their heads and use crappy statistical averages to fail at making a point, as cherry picked statistics are a terrible way to analyse anything) WG then using the nerf hammer in such a way like a sledge hammer used to crack a nut. We saw the same thing with CVs there was more balanced feedback from some players on how to bring CVs into line, instead they nerfed them hard, slapped Mirror MM on and low and behold DDs in T8+ are now completely out of control. As to the original question of should DDs have citadels, maybe, there is little variation with DDs, as soon as it's spotted the go to tactic is to fire as many HE shells as possible at it. Boring. There should be a reason to use AP vs DDs, there currently isn't, firing at DDs requires little finesse or gunnery skill just simple target saturation. I'd like there to be a point to targeting a DDs citadel, but it should be tiny a shell hitting the engine or stored shells and torpedoes is significantly smaller than on a CA or BB and as such the damage inflicted by a citadel should be correspondingly reduced due to the reduced scale of the munitions/ engine affecting the rest of the ship. Given that DDs don't run on fairy dust and have infinite numbers of torpedoes I find it odd that they get away with the single biggest vulnerability a ship has and everyone else is stuck with it. Particularly as they now benefit from survival expert and last stand early on, a DDs survivability potential has increased significantly, baring the idiots which insist on bum rushing the enemy team on their own and get targeted by every enemy ship in range, not much you can do about them except give them BB levels of HP. It's going to depend on how effective Radar and buffs to Sonar are, those two in combination sound particularly effective at spotting DDs, if they are as good as they sound, then Citadels in a DD are probably not a good idea. If T8+ DDs are still running around everywhere after that, then possibly it's worth considering, but then one should think about reducing the % chance of disabling modules with HE fire, as it currently stange landing any HE shell results in at least 1 module disabled if not 3/4. But it'd have to be done on a ship to ship basis varing sizes and damage, not simply slapping a Citadel on the class across the board as T1-6 DDs are more or less balanced and don't really need any changes at the moment.

I don't think nerfing Citadel damage to CAs from BBs is the best idea, These are battleship shells of 16+ inches slamming into the cruiser, add the difficulty of hitting a well captained CA at long range and the shell dispersion being so big, reducing damage too much would certainly give a big edge to a CA. Imagine a Zao with full concealment and reduced citadel damage, those things have a detection radius of 9.7km and really nasty HE shells, even vs BBs. I'll be commenting specifically regarding T8+ CAs not T5/6 CLs as the manoeuvrability of the T5 and 6 is the best defence, once you hit T8+ the CAs have a turning circle of 800m and for the German CAs even fully upgraded my Roon has a 9 second rudder shift. I think making different citadels different sizes and smaller, is preferable to a straight damage reduction, It might actually encourage a BB to get closer where it's shell dispersion is unlikely to hamstring it to the same extent, at the moment the sheer size of CAs in T8+ means that sniping in a BB is more attractive as a lucky hit will cripple a high tier CA, and it's not that difficult to get those hits given how high in the water some CAs sit. I do think your idea of making citadels different sizes and different damage is preferable to a simple damage nerf, as a hit to different compartments would cause more damage. WG has done a fairly poor job of showing the various sections of the ship. The incoming cross section system that they're putting in should help give us a better idea of where various ship's ,citadels are located, how to shield them and if some CAs need the Citadel's reduced slightly.

Hmmm finally got some time to watch T10 and T9 vids, by the look of it the Russian CAs have worse AP penetration than the Roon and Hindenberg, which I know from the Roon can citadel a BB reasonably well. That was my biggest worry, that the Moskva's AP shells would simply outstrip the Hindenberg in armour penetration and AP damage, while having better HE. Looks like the Hipper, Roon and Hindenberg remain the go to ships for AP sniping. I'm happy with that, so long as they keep the difference between the ship lines noticeable. I do think looking at the shell trajectory and shell dispersion that the Moskva is too good in those areas, very tight shell grouping and low arc for 14km shots, especially with the shell calibre it's firing although it depends on the shell velocity. Yet, looking at the hits he took from the Yamato and the AP hits on another Moskva makes me think that it's going to have real problems with concealment and getting jumped by a max conceal Hindenburg, Zao or Roon slamming AP shells into it's broadside if unspotted or the Moskva's giving a broadside. Interesting.

Yeah, it's because used to using the Des Moines, Hipper is good but it's a T8 CA, not a T10 USN CA, which makes aircraft look like they've run into a blender when it has the defensive fire mod on. If I'm ever in a match with high tier CVs I run for cover behind the nearest Des Moines in my Roon or Hipper. I'm not as good as Dropsiq so I'm not going to agree when it comes to good armour, as I make errors which leads to heavy hits being taken, because I'm too aggressive, but I don't do as much damage when I stick to defensive play. It can certainly take the hits, it's got the most HP rather than heavy armour, so it can take more damage than any T8 CA in the game, but citadels really hurt it and they're easier to get than the likes of an Atago. It's really a glass cannon ship, screw up and you get your teeth kicked in, play right and it'll citadel BBs. I've not seen any T8 cruisers that can do that. Roon is basically like the Hipper, but better and hits harder, like a [edited]freight train. You can go shell to shell with an Iowa if it's careless enough to give you a clear broadside. I've not managed to citadel one yet, but you fire faster, you've got better shell dispersion (150m) and the shells have really good penetration. Plus mine has 20.7km range Cons, it's a lot bigger but still has thin armour, so torpedoes do a lot of damage same with citadel hits vs BBs. Also turns like a pregnant cow, I'm still on hull A so I have a 12 second rudder shift which should drop to 9 in hull B. Also it's got really bad detection range, well maybe not as bad as the new Russian CAs, but it's not going to be sneaking up on many ships in the same way the Zao can, but then again you don't really want to. It fights better vs CAs and BBs at range so it's more useful to slip away after your first few salvoes if you start attracting unhealthy amounts of fire.

I've not looked at all the videos, I will later today. I wanted to get some games in with my Hipper as I've been away for a while. But I look at the overlap between the new Russian CAs and their German Counterparts and feel that Moskva is treading on the Hindenburg's toes too much at this point. That shell dispersion in the video vs the DD in the first few minutes is crazy 15km and you hit with the entire salvo I think, maybe it was RNG given that dispersion increases with range, but still, that's laser accurate. I'm more interested in the radar sweep and if it will be applied to German CAs too, even if it's not as good as the Russian and US version, it'd be soooooo much more fun to play combined with the buffed Sonar so you don't spend every game taking walls of torpedoes in T9/10

I don't, I don't play DDs. But I don't think it's daft to have a gunboat with atrocious gun arcs at tier X which could be an effective counter to the number of Shimi's running around. [edited], utter, [edited]. You have just described torpedo spam. Spray and pray. This is precisely the response I said is brought up "...but you should change course" yeah that's nice if you know what vicinity a DD is in, which you won't as you can't detect it, and have no idea which direction it is until a spread or torpedoes appears out of nowhere leaving you trying to turn into it and weave through. Pray tell, how do you change course when you don't know which direction to change course to? Because you have 2 Sonar uses and each one is 5km, a Shimi can happily sit 1 km outside of your detection range and hit you with a wall of torpedoes. Stack on top of that you've now been highlighted to every ship in range which is going to start shooting at you, most CAs will run. And that doesn't even address the [edited]that currently occurs when the Shimi launches a spread of torpedoes misses completely and still the saturates the entire area 5+km behind the intended target forcing every other ship to turn hard and pull back because there's a Shimi in the area, which even if it's aim is so piss poor it'll still get hits through blind luck. And the response is always herp a derp "well don't sail in straight line" try dodging torpedoes with a 9 second rudder shift and a 800+m turning circle. No, CVs can be completely incompetent. Add to that the number which will go for the bomber and torpedo set ups over fighters, means that spotting has now become mediocre at best. There are less fighters to intercept bombers which leads to uncontested ordnance flying around while most CVs will never bother to actively spot a DD, rather you are given a glimpse as the ordnance flies over head towards the other CV or BB. When you actually have a competent CV in a match it's a God send or simply blind luck.

And in so doing nerf the entire German CA line, the Hipper, Roon and Hindenberg are reliant on heavy AP damage and citadel hits to do damage. Patch 5.3.0 was so buggy that it created micro stutters, lag and rubber banding making it a pain to reliably citadel things in any of the above ships, 5.3.2 seems to have fixed that. Now making CA citadels smaller, maybe there's an argument for that, as it rewards accurate gunnery, but if your ship gets hit with an 18inch shell from a Yamato and it penetrates the citadel it should hurt a lot.

Actually, I'd say the Gearing's gun arc needs to be fixed ie: Flatter shell trajectory, I keep seeing complaints regarding regarding the shell arc and while playing the Yorck I found it a pain to hit a CA with it's AP shells let alone a DD. The Kagero and Shimi, it's not the number of torpedoes on their own which is the problem, it's when it's combined with the range, concealment mechanics, lack of detection capability. 15 torpedoes can be dealt with, when you can actually see the bloody DD that's firing it. You know as well as I do that a Shimi can launch from 7km away, completely concealed, miss it's target completely and still hit the ships behind simply because the range allows it to saturate an area with torpedoes better than any DD in the game. Then we get a load of morons saying duuuhh "shouldn't sail in a straight line" when most don't have a [edited]clue how difficult it is to turn a ship the size of the Roon once torpedoes have been spotted, and once there's 2/3 Shimis launching multiple spreads, well you may as well just leave the game as you're going to spend the next 20 minutes weaving in and out of torpedoes, because you can't spot the DD launching them and trying to chase them down earns you nothing but a wall of torpedoes in the bow. If you look at the Shimi none of the other DDs in the game have that range and ability to launch that many torpedoes, the Kagero has the same problem of range, but it's not so bad given it's limited to 2 x4 torpedo tubes. Radar may address some of these issues, but all it does is push the shimi and Kagero to launch torpedoes from further away, so we still end up with the problem of invisible torpedo walls being spammed from undetectable ranges. Particularly as I can see Radar potentially hitting DDs like the Gearing which are actually more effective spotting DDs, but leaving the Shimi untouched due to it's absurd torpedo range. The problem is not that DDs are an element in the game, it's rather that WG has subscribed to a concept of hard counters and to hope that there will be team play and/or a CV in the game is almost like trying to debate the wind, it's reliant on blind luck. It's doomed to fail as nerfing one class will inevitable let the class it was supposed to counter get out of control. We saw this with CVs getting hit with the nerf stick and locked into mirror MM which was a huge mistake, I've ended up in numerous higher tier games where there is no CV, let alone a competent one which is interested in spotting or intercepting bombers, rather than trying to bomb BBs. The result is that DDs at that level are completely out of control now.

Actually play your way up to T8/9 then you'll have a better idea of game mechanics and what to watch out for, because T8+ will punish you brutally for silly mistakes that you can get away with in T5. That said, T8+ invisible DD torp spam is still a thing and the game meta at higher tier is horribly skewed and broken, forcing players to snipe in a BB or CA to avoid overwhelming number of Shimi's spamming torpedoes. You'll learn that you'll often get drawn into T10 games in T8 ships where you're the weakest tier by a long way, here screwing up often means dying.

You're not that good. That's the issue, practice more. Look at any of the youtube players like Flamu(, I think that's how it's spelt) Jingles (he shows a lot of other people's replays) etc. They show how to play the game properly. Most people will not be as good as the top tier players which can rack up 100+k damage a game when the average is 30/40k but the videos do show the lay out of the maps, how players move in certain areas regularly, how to angle your armour (I can't emphasis how important this is especially in higher tiers, where you will be brutally punished for your mistakes) what shells to use, what ship modules, captain skills, detection range explanations, invisible firing and concealment, plunging fire, where and how to target citadels, penetration mechanics etc. The game is rather involved and War gaming has done a piss poor job or conveying data to players which allows them to understand what their ships actually can and can't do other than through trial and error (hopefully the cross section system coming in should address that somewhat) It also depends on your ship class. Cruisers are hard to use, it's easy to get gungho and rush in, you will pay for it as you don't have the armour, even angling, to deflect battleship shells, while Battle ships take time and punish trigger happy players with poor gunnery or let themselves get isolated. DDs need to stay out of cruiser's way in tiers 1-6 as a cruiser is lethal at that level against a destroyer. (T8+ all this goes out the window so as the game meta is horribly skewed)

True, but you're still left with the fact that the Kagero and Shimi have a torpedo range of 20km/15km Radar hits other DDs disproportionately given they all have a range of 10km or less. It leaves the Shimi largely untouched. By far the most frustrating and tedious issue in higher tier games is Shimis launching walls of torpedoes well outside detection range, they can miss their target and still hit ships 5km behind their intended target. Now I understand that Hydro acoustic is getting a buff, and depending on the range of radar, it may have some impact on DDs spamming torpedoes. But I think it will not get to the core issue, it'll simply push the Shimi and Kagro back further when they launch their torpedoes. The Shimi is by far the biggest offender of this tactic, and I think it'll continue to be so after radar is introduced, as all the sonar and radar buffs do is push the Shimi out further without making it take the same risks as other DDs, and it's already the most played T10 DD in the game. Unless you bring the Shimi and Kagero's torpedo range into line with other DDs I foresee the same problem happening. Edit: While I may not go DD hunting in a CA with a BB nearby, if it's already engaging another BB or other CA it still leaves the undetectable Shimi spamming torpedoes into you and the team while you try to engage. End game chasing a DD isn't so much the problem as you've got the freedom to move, trying to fight a BBwith a Shimi launching torpedoes every couple of minutes. As a CA player I'll break off and move away from the DD'S and leave the BB, because I know I'm going to steam right into a wall of torpedoes from a DD which I can't see. So I can't actually do my class' job of protecting a BB from a DD when it's fighting.

Your entire post. Your entire argument is hypothetical and a groundless, you've no practical experience of the game past T6 and none whatsoever in higher tier game meta where you contend with torpedo walls and BB sniping. If someone told you the sky was painted by God, would you try to explain why it isn't or would you just look at that person and realise they didn't know what they were talking about. Yeah, that's how I'm looking at your posts right now. If I had the inclination maybe I would, but something tells me that you'd come up with a fallacious argument which has no grounding in what the game meta currently is and carry on down a purely hypothetical fantasy solution.

So what? Damage averages are an atrocious measure of how effective a ship is. You're taking the entire class and saying nothing is wrong based on the average spread across tiers 1-10. That is an appalling way of analysing statistical data that only someone who is utterly dense or wilfully obtuse would use it as a measure of how effective something is. Pick hit rate average or damage average I'll illustrate that both are poor indicators. Everyone knows we are not referring to T1-6, everyone knows we're not referring to Russian DDs, everyone knows we're not referring to USN DDs, we all know that the problems do not arise until T8+ and we all know it's the Shimi which is the worst offender of making walls of torpedoes, which is why when you look at the player statistics is has more games played than every T10 ship in the USN combined. I wouldn't be the best person to tell you how to play CAs, frankly I'm new at the game and I'm still learning, but even I grasp that there are serious issues in higher tiers while a lot of other far better and more experienced players do to.

Wow, hahaha. You don't have anything that would encounter a Shimi. Your highest tier ship is an Atago with 33 games in it. You have no idea what you're even talking about do you? You've never encountered people spaming torpedoes as you don't even have the ships which would allow MM to put you in the same game with! Seriously, I can understand if some people disagree, but they've played numerous games or have reached higher tier matches. You've not. You have no concept of what the game meta is at that level everything you've come out with is purely hypothetical.

Hit rate, you mentioned hit rate, so why are you bringing up damage? And as you have no games in Higher tier CAs or BBs I can disregard what you said as you've got no idea how to play higher tier matches outside of using a DD Are you literate? Or are you being deliberately obtuse? I specifically said I don't think duds should be implemented, nor do I think capping the number of DDs in a game is the way forward, nor that T1-6 DDs are a problem in the current game meta. It only starts when you hit T8+ Do you grasp the simplicity of what I'm saying? I really can't dumb it down any more for you.

Why is that? I've brought up the issue of average statistics before, they're complete crap. It's low because people spam the bloody things. We've all seen it in T8+ games, and it gets worse the more Shimis there are in the game, you see a wall of torpedoes coming out of nowhere launched from over 7km away from an undetectable DD. Now with Vigilance and Sonar people are able to detect them and start turning into them, there's no skill or risk on the part of a DD captain to stay permanently undetected and simply go *click, click, click* every couple of minutes. I don't use BB or CA shells as an area denial weapon. DDs do. This is the consequence of torpedo walls. I don't think torpedoes should be duds etc I'm also wary of capping DD numbers as it doesn't address the core issue of why the Shimi is played more than any other T10 ship to a ratio of 3 or 4:1 in many cases, the main issue is the 20km range on the Shimis and the detection and concealment mechanics which have fostered torpedo walls as a viable low risk tactic. It's unfortunate as playing as a CA fighting against Soviet and USN DDs is actually fun, because they fire back, they have to be at least within 10km for their torpedoes and they can't spam a wall at you. There's actually some skill and risk involved. It makes it fun for me as a CA captain as I actually have a chance of spotting and hitting them. DDs in T5 and T6 will actually risk attacking a BB, and even if they sink my Kongo, I don't mind I can try to take action vs the DD, it can be a good fight, It's down to who's more skilled making the most of a BBs gunnery and positioning to anticipate torpedoes, while DDs move to minimise exposure to secondary battery fire without opening a broadside to a BBs main guns when firing torpedoes. It's fun, I don't care if I get sunk by a DD. And I'm fairly sure some DDs feel a greater sense of achievement dodging a BB's guns to land a perfect torpedo spread than sitting back and going *click, click, click* Shimi's spamming torpedoes have destroyed the higher tier games, I don't use my Roon any more as it's simply frustrating and tedious to constantly get games where there are at least 5 DDs and there's always at least 1 Shimi. The game has to be played extremely conservatively as I'm looking at a 170k repair bill, and I wouldn't mind that, if I didn't have to spend 20 minutes weaving through walls of torpedoes. So I simply sit back and snipe in the Roon, I've got the ability to hit things over 20km away so I've no incentive to get close and risk getting hit by a mass of torpedoes.

If you've not got captain skills and modules Tier 9 and 10 can be so punishing for CAs. But most Zao I've seen do very well, awesome ship, as soon as I get through the German CA line I'm starting on the IJN. Happens sometimes, a couple of games, in the Roon I've got blind sided by a stealth DD which spammed a wall or torps into me, I probably over extended a bit, but CA game play seems to be very defensive as mistakes are punished so hard, unless you're one of those amazing CA players which simply melts enemy ships.

Yeah, we had the same rending of hair when hydro acoustic was introduced and people were complaining that Hydro acoustic would make DDs unplayable. It didn't. I don't think radar will either, especially as the range isn't fixed and it is limited to T8 CAs even though Hydro acoustic seems to be getting a buff in general. My issue with it is that it still won't address the problem of a Shimis spamming walls of torpedoes at undetectable ranges. The Shimi and the Kagero have a range of 20/15km (16/12km with torpedo acceleration.) so radar doesn't actually hit them. I can see why radar is useful for dealing with annoying DD's spamming HE and AP shells from smoke, but the biggest issue at T8+ is the walls of torpedoes appearing out of nowhere. My biggest worry is that it will address one issue, invisible fire. But leave the most egregious offenders of torpedo spam completely untouched. It's leaving a loophole open to be exploited again, perhaps worse this time as some power players will simply stay in the Shimi. I don't think torp spam will be addressed until the Kagero and Shimi are brought into line with other DDs. Notably the sheer range on their torpedoes, which outstrips every other DD in the game by 10/5km. Depending on how long radar lasts, if it's relatively short, has limited charges, recharge, doesn't detect torpedoes etc. then I see it being useful but not OP. Preventing it from being spammed. I just think that leaving the Shimi and Kagero torpedoes untouched is asking for trouble as players will shift to use them even more. Edit: Although DD USN Gunboats should be much tougher as their game play reveals them to CAs, plus HE knocks out their turrets insanely fast. That, and the undetectable 20km torpedoes on the Shimi means that you rarely see gunboat DDs like the Russian DDs, which are actually quite tough and even a heavy CA has to be wary of just rushing in and showing a broadside.