BillydSquid

I think sinking all camping BB players with a console command would improve the gameplay no end. What do you think?

How are you a beta tester and this clueless? I'd feel fine if my Zao, Minotaur or Hindenburg had the same armour, hp, secondaries and main gun calibre as my Kurfurst and Yamato.

Give CAs better survivability with smaller/ spaced citadels Make CVs viable again with interface improvements, build and skill buffs and economy buffs. Stop nerfing torpedo DDs so they can counter rushing BBs. Simple, don't need to nerf BBs, but the other classes are in dire need of a re balance to check the uncontrolled BB population.

Personally I wouldn't have minded the slow turret traverse, it's manageable on the Warspite, but the ship's saving grace was the amazing sigma of the Warspite 2.1, yes it's only got 15km range, but it can put a cluster of shells on target with great accuracy for a BB, it's got a great turning circle which allows you to turn the ship to bring the turrets into play and then make final adjustments with the turret's themselves. That's how I get the Warspite to work, and it works well. Hood gets better turret traverse, but from what I've seen it's still got poor sigma and dispersion about the same as the German BBs.... so what's stopping me from just playing the German line which has much faster traverse, similar sigma and dispersion and fires faster? Same with the IJN turret traverse is slightly faster than the RN, better dispersion and sigma. So what does the RN currently bring to the table? I'm not seeing it. The Warspite had real trouble if it's guns were aimed on the wrong side or it got blind sided by a CA, because there was no way you could the turrets to bear which gave CAs a carte blanche to hammer you with HE before disappearing as you could'nt bring your guns round in time, unless you pivoted the whole ship which left you massively vulnerable to citadel hits from BBs and torpedo spreads. Personally I didn't mind that because it made players think where the hell they were positioning themselves, because getting blind sided put them at a serious disadvantage, yet the payoff was that positioning yourself correctly meant you could nail a target with 80% of your salvo which vs CAs caught unprepared or sloppy BBs giving broadside was devastating with the shell calibre Warspite fired. I'm unimpressed with the Hood at the moment. I've got the Kurfurst and Yamato, so we'll see that the RN line brings which these can't do better.

It's called spotting, the same thing you use with artillery when you call in coordinates.

Yep, I have the Minotaur, you can still stack 30k on a BB even when it's angled by targeting the super structure, BBs don't like this and cry salty tears that angling doesn't completely negate RN AP shells like it can with other CAs. But vs broadside potatoes, yes, the Minotaur can put down a scary amount of damage if they're allowed to.

Because a lot of BB players are useless potatoes and take offence that a CL can stack 30k damage on them in a couple of minutes.

Lulz I spent this match with a Neptune and Tirpitz on my arse playing hide and seek round A and spamming HE at SkybuckFlying.

Hmmm, that's another thing then, the game doesn't reward you for team play. eg. shooting down planes while in the vicinity of a CV could earn you ribbons "defender" bonus etc. Or just a more varied load out and better aircraft management tools. ie: you can have more fighter wings in a strike load out or defensive captain skills. At the moment the captain skills for the CV seem kind of meh... as if designed by someone which hasn't had much experience in CVs. I think most of us (those with experience in higher tiers) realise that there are a number of issues holding back CVs from being played more regularly which is in turn skewing the meta to BB heavy play to the detriment of CAs

It's okay though, we won't judge you too harshly, it's just the way you were born.

That'd be welcome, but it still wouldn't fix the tiny amount of CVs in T9/10 when they're at their most powerful. I think that stems from the CV high tier economy being broken, I don't know if it's been fixed yet, poor interface and the lack of decent builds. It's either strike build of go home by the look of it.

Yeah, until they're on your team.

I'd prefer them to Buff CVs so I can do this in chat.

Yep, you see some absolutely atrocious BB players at higher tiers that I've seen since I've been back, predominately round the T8/9 mark where sitting at the back sniping like a scrub doesn't result in a crippling loss of credits. T10 there's fewer players namely because the performance demands to earn that income are higher (not that much, you just have to not be useless to break even or turn a small profit even with premium consumables on) and they tend to know their ships and the game better. There is still the bow on behaviour, but the BBs, at least in some instances, move with the CAs and CLs as a supportive unit. T9 BBs are just a weaker version of the T10 with all of the drawbacks, but limited benefits it's not worth keeping them once you get to T10 which are just flat out better, I don't keep my T9 BBs, but funnily enough I do keep the T8. I still have Bismark, Tirpitz and Amagi despite having a Yamato and Kurfurst. The Jump between T8 and T10 is large so a T10 BB needs to be used in a completely different manner to a T8 to use properly, something people reaching T10 in recent months haven't grasped so you get camping snipers. CAs and CLs, you want to get out of T8 and into T9/10 as fast as possible. (no heal, limited firepower, damage potential, poor HP pool, high visibility comparatively) namely because of up tiering. Although my experience with the Mogami has been largely positive (I'm grinding to the Zao) German CAs not so much, due to the shite AP penetration, RN CLs are awesome at T8+ regardless of the ship. So I think it varies from line to line. I'm having little trouble dealing 50k+ damage in the Mogami at the moment in most games, even when up tiered. CVs something I've been saying for so long now. CVs as a class are dead, which has led to the proliferation of BBs as the dominant class in high tier matches. Either through economy nerfs, poor implementation or constant buffs to BBs. They're just not there.

Oh so there are a lot of CVs in the game? They must be the new submersible type which only pop up to the surface every few games, because I don't see them that often. Lets be realistic here.

Using basic maths that would mean 40% of matches are based on a single class, DDs 20% CA/CL 20% CV 20% (but who are we kidding it's more like 5% for CVs) So what was your point? BBs are not over represented in games?

Irrelevant. Being back after 4 months I have to say that the state of Tier 8+ games if atrocious, there was always peaks and troughs in game quality, but currently players found in these games are complete and utter crap. I'd rather take 2 DDs that know their role, know their ships and know the game than 3 DDs which don't have a clue and torp form 15km away, when the ship isn't even in range and chased a CA to the edge of the map while ignoring the enemy capping with impunity... who the [edited]does that?! The same with useless full hp BB playing sailing in circles, bow on camping and reversing back and forth constantly while the refusing to more forwards to catch the team between 2 pincers. Just absolutely god awful, it's not even messing up or making a mistake, everyone does this; but a fundamental failure or refusal to effectively play the game. I mean sub 500 scores at the end of the game accounting for half the team.

I agree, can we also remove all crap BB players from the game as they're cancerous and make every T8+ game a pain because they're absolutely useless.

No, no they're not, other than the Kutuzov they're the only ships which have on demand cover at the click of a button or radar for DD hunting and the Minotaur can drop it's concealment to 8.9km which is insanely good for a CA/CL. They have the same issues as many CAs in the game, but that's more to do with the current meta and CA survivability issues, but the RN mitigates it with extremely low concealment and smoke. Hell, the Minotaur can out turn a DD. The other CA lines have far bigger problems when it comes to the high tier meta. RN performs very well in T8+ by comparison, even vs the likes of the Zao.

Well there is, BBs can bounce and absorb a good deal of damage thrown at them so moving up to provide fire support for DDs and CAs/ CLs can increase survivability for CAs and CLs. I play predominately CAs and CLs so I'm well aware of the problems that these classes have in the current meta and how the counter play has developed to counter it, having the Hindenburg Minotaur and almost up to the Zao. There's a larger problem with CA and CL survivability vs BB citadel hits and you've mentioned it yourself, getting one hit killed by 16km BB sniping isn't fun, citadel sizes in CAs/ CLs needs to be smaller. Yet, the big guns of a BB moving up with a CA with the ability to absorb damage is a threat and it becomes a priority target, CAs and CLs have the support consumables to detect the DDs and provide AA. Yet you don't see it, why? No CVs, there's no reason to move in as a BB, there's no threat of being isolated and attacked by CVs. If you add CVs back in DDs come back into play as BBs have to move in whereby torpedoes are a threat so CA and CL presence is required to counter DDs with radar, hydro, rapid fire guns, smoke etc. The system of rock, paper, scissors doesn't work when you remove a counter (CVs)

I'm just going to mention the Vanguard's superchargers increasing it's shell velocity and effective range significantly, thought I'd lob that grenade into the discussion to be helpful. But, as long as the RN BBs have good sigma values, like Warspite, RN repair, decent speed and solid armour a more limited effective range isn't crippling with the lack of stealth fire after the changes as I understand them (I took a break for a few months) Just don't make the turrets turn so bloody slow. Warspite you can get away with it due to the ship's extremely good rudder shift and the short length making it easier to "turn the ship" rather than the turrets then make fine adjustments to the turrets. Doing that on something the size of HMS Hood? Ehhhh. nope, not going to work well at all. I'm happy with the RN CL line though, the Minotaur is awesome, and the CLs are fun to play, the game play is like being balanced on the edge of a knife make a mistake and you're dead. If you're going to continue the expansion of radar in the game then you're going to have issues with it as they function effectively in cover, terrain and when supported by other ships. But you can guarantee that as soon as you're spotted every ship in range with target you if you're in a Minotaur I've had 6 ships target me in several games. Open water they are very vulnerable, but the smoke mitigates that, yet it cancels out the Radar style of play. You need to address the camping behaviour of BBs, that's by far the biggest problem the game faces and you can see it in the BB population and the growth in DD numbers to compensate. The RN line works, because it has high concealment, smoke, great rudder shift and rapid fire guns with a very powerful heal. Yet, few BBs will actively support CAs (for fear of scratching their paint?) which leads to CAs and CLs getting mass targeted by the enemy team. As a priority, fix the damn CVs, this entire problem started when the changes were made to them and haven't been corrected since. At the moment, there is no punishment for a BB sitting at the back uselessly firing shells, because there are few CVs in the game and their aircraft run into a wall of AA from a single BB. That, and reduce the citadel size on your CAs a bit, I've been saying this for a while now, it's not exactly fun to play a T9/10 CA and get multiple citadels from a BB which you can't repair effectively simply because you fired your guns. It's why the Zao, Moskva and Hindenburg all revolve round long range HE fire, moving in leaves the CAs focused on and unsupported as the BBs will sit at the back often (not all players do this) while the lack of CVs in the meta ensures that a BB has no reason to move forward for air protection from their CAs and CLs.

I meant that there is no CV to counter BBs effectively, not that there isn't a counter to CVs, there's many many counters to CVs

Biggest problem with the BB meta is lack of CA and CL survivability vs being sniped by long range BB fire 16+km away, and the higher tiers get this badly, with the increased CA size and lack of armour to deflect large calibre shells with the exception of the Zao and Minotaur. Smaller citadels would held massively vs getting One hit killed by lucky BB shells, yet still maintain the balance between BBs being the biggest stick on the field and CAs and CLs being extremely wary around them because getting hit with a salvo of 406mm shells even without a citadel hit is going to cause a lot of damage which can't be repaired effectively. Second. No CV counter. This is a fundamental failure on WG's part which has thrown the entire game meta into chaos. I've said both of these points for months now, almost a year, both CA survivability vs OHK and a lack of CVs in the game, and IMO they remain the fundamental sticking points which is causing the problem in the current meta, less the CA citadel size, but really the lack of effective CVs in the game. The nerf to CVs threw out the balance and let DDs go unchecked, which led to nerfs, which led to BBs becoming dominant vs all other classes. Why can a BB stay at the back and spam shells with impunity? No CV. an isolated BB away from CA/ CL support with a CV in the game should be in real trouble. But, it just doesn't exist in the current meta. It's why capping numbers shouldn't really be the check to BBs, the check should be CVs which if buffed can actually limit the power of BBs. Yamato and Kurfurst have game changing levels of firepower, those T10 ships are monsters, and yet short of a DD which manages to make it past friendly DDs, CAs, CLs, hydro, radar, spotter planes, fighters and it still has to deal with my 10km manual secondaries, they're almost untouchable vs anything but another Yamato and Kurfurst. I'm glad they buffed the Shima in the latest patch, but CVs have long needed buffs both in the economy and as a class to be effective.

Duh. Ineffective sniping comes from BB players which don't know how to prioritise targets, they'll sit there bow on flinging shells at other bow on BBs and achieve nothing because of the armour mechanics and shell bounce angles off the deck. Any BB player which actually knows his target priority will immediately target CAs and CLs above everything else, once the CAs and CLs are down the threat to your DDs is diminished drastically, your CAs can start picking off the enemy DDs without CAs and CL support and there is no AA shield vs CAs. It's not uncommon to be targeted by at least 3 enemy ships as soon as you're detected. If you'd actually move off your arses and push up behind the CAs and CLs you'd get the AA cover, wouldn't be isolated and torpedoed by DDs. Any BB player worth anything will often be operating inside the 15/16km range where the dispersion is significantly lower given the reach of their guns and they will absolutely wreck and CA in range, where as most CAs are effective inside the 15km radius; the exception being the Moskva, because it's equipped with railguns.