Runegrem

No, I meant exactly what I said. Kebab has the stealthiest torpedoes in the game. That sounds like what I usually do when I play her.

Yeah, Kebab put all of her stealth into the torpedoes.

From my very limited experience fighting the Harugumo in the Kebab I'll say that even that ship struggles to fight the Kebab. And that has one more gun and the reload mod plus a bunch of extra health. Might just have been fighting a potato tester though.

Dealing with someone in smoke doesn't really require that much skill either, especially if you've got torps. And even then, failing to deal with someone in smoke will at most cost you a cap or position. Dealing with someone who has radar takes a lot more skill if you want to actually do something. And failing to deal with radar gets you killed or severely hurt. Smoke also has the disadvantage of blocking your own view. Radar has no disadvantages. So comparing the consumables you can see there's a disparity in skill required to use them vs dealing with them as well as smoke's sight blocking. That said. Smokes should last shorter time. Too much smoke isn't good for the game, but radar isn't the solution. @evp66Whoa. I didn't know that either. Better put the smoke back on my Kebab.

Yeah. I think almost everyone in the thread think the poll is stupid and should be ignored.

Well, yeah, but you can also say that sitting in A1 shooting HE in the general direction of the enemy takes skill. I don't think it's a relevant level of skill if you wanna make an actual claim. I hope you're not including actually finding the Shima in that assessment (though a friend with radar can help with that). Also, you've got to avoid 15 torps in a not terribly agile ship unless the Shima has launched those elsewhere. I heard Chapa was going to have radar on the A-hull in the next update or something. Am I right about that?

It doesn't actually. It helps, since you get more out of radar with actual consistency if you use it with more skill, but it's not required to use it successfully.

Well, at least they've got the C cap locked down. I occasionally go there in the Kebab when the camping around the new D cap gets too severe. Sometimes I can dislodge ships hiding just behind the big middle island, or even better, DDs trying to hide behind the small island next to the channel.

If you are a DD in a cap and you're radared you will almost always be shot at. So if it's the rare case where someone just radared and no one actually shoots at you you'll still probably move away because waiting until the shots actually come is suicidal. Does that clear up what I wrote?

Old thread but the idea is still relevant. Options A and B are solid, but option C might be a bit too complex for its own good if you add the other criteria (it's not terribly complex but considering the rest of the UI it's a bit much to ask for). I'd also add a suggestion to be able to select a flag for all ships. Anyone who's used the ranked flags know why.

No, they're not OP as hell, they're just detrimental to the game as well as a bit unbalanced in terms of skill to use compared to skill to avoid. A radar ship that isn't hiding behind an island she can't shoot over does not depend on support to clear a cap of DDs (though most cruisers would have problems with multiple DDs if the DDs are brave enough). In many cases just flashing radar is enough to clear a cap, even if no one can actually shoot the DD because being spotted in a cap almost always mean you will have incoming fire and it's hard to dodge if you have to stay within the cap (does not work against Kebab). Both teams has equal chance of team play. Anything else is just one of the most common forms of observation bias on these forums (another being tier distribution), unless the observer is the one really sucking at team play, which is the case for a lot of players who whine about enemy team always being better. If there's an enemy radar cruiser near the cap then a DD risks being deleted no matter if he has support or not. If there's no radar ship a DD in the cap he can either try to weather the incoming fire (assuming equalish support) better than the enemy DD or just smoke up and maybe run away, which limits his own visibility as well as the visibility of his team. Both are well balanced options. Though smoke should last shorter time.

Does the Moskva count as a cruiser? Because I recently rushed an NC and a Curruwurst in her. Rushed past the NC at 2-3km and rammed the Currywurst some 8km farther away. 50mm bow armour is stronk balance, comrade.

3. Smoke camping isn't exactly free and can be countered without radar. It's still a stupid game mechanic. Smoke screens should last shorter times to not encourage smoke camping. Sitting in smoke while capping and not shooting is... eh... not much of an issue either way. 1. Like others have said: DDs still have to deal with other DDs. Even a Kebab with her horrible concealment can be a threat to a capping DD that doesn't have enough support or makes the mistake of smoking and thus hiding the Kebab from view. Also a "you want" argument that's twisting the words of others. 4. All ships with over 1km turning circle has access to hydro. I'm not sure about Kronshtadt, but that ship is powerful enough to take it anyway. DDs are generally the front of any team. If DDs play passive everyone plays passive. The spotting DD still have to get within dangerous ranges to spot other DDs. So there's always risk involved. Me! Me! Me! I'm completely objective. Well, kinda. I may play 45% DDs, but most of them are RU DDs with the Kebab at the top. That's a ship that benefits from radar, so actually I should be for radar. And my Moskva has my highest average damage. So everything I say should be viewed through that lens. This is a completely legit statement. Nothing can be said against it. Ever. I really hope there's no one who posts in this thread who doesn't think that. High tier is 8-10. It's the tiers that can see tier 10 battles and the tiers with silver ships with radars. So they're the tiers that are important to this thread. It really helps discussions if everyone's on the same page. So if someone doesn't understand something, try to explain. It doesn't help all the time, but trying doesn't hurt. One of the reasons why AA and CVs are broken in this game.

Which was the issue I had with his argument. He made a difference of it when there really isn't. Yeah, comparisons may be flawed, but they may also put things in a different light, so that people might understand them. Didn't seem to work in this case though.

Yeah. I just watched a Youtube vid from someone like that. Stay in the back. Don't support the team. Just farm damage and kills. And then move in for the glory at the end when everyone else is dead and claim carry despite carrying wouldn't have been necessary if he'd just supported the team from the start. Okay, now I know what you mean by it. I ignore most people's bad behaviour most of the time. It's just that that kinda stuck out to me since it's a bannable offence in some more moderated forums. In many places both the holder and the wrench-person will be convicted of murder. They both actively participated in a murder. The point is that if radar is causing players to die then you shouldn't try to claim that radar isn't killing players. If you were just trying to correct people of the useage of words, then it's just semantics, which is at most a little petty and distracting. But you are using the difference between directly killing and indirectly killing as some sort of argument. That's dishonest. Not all offensive tools directly damage an opponent. Ever heard the term "offensive smoke"? It means you're using smoke to be able to sit in it and fire at the opponent while he can't see you. It's an offensive use of a mostly defensive tool. Radar can be used perfectly well in an offensive manner.

Yeah. Players miss using abilities at good opportunities all the time and only use them when the situation really calls for it. That goes for all abilities of all classes. I radar cruisers and BBs all the time too. It's very powerful against all kinds of ships. You'd still have to outfight the enemy DDs while dodging enemy support fire. You have radar, or you don't. It takes no skill to use, but you get more out of it the more skill you put into it. Also, radar doesn't stop stealth torping, it just makes the torps come from farther away. Fun, TL:DR version, is playing the spotting game vs other DDs or brave cruisers and brawl with them. And even CVs can be fun to have in a match if your CV isn't much more of a potato than the enemy. Having your detection radius actually matter is more interesting than having all DDs, including Kebab, have the same effective concealment. For that reason it's much easier to play Kebab these days. The rest of the DDs get spotted as easily as I do, which means I can shoot them more. Sadly, there are fewer DDs around now for me to shoot. Haven't heard that about CV players, but I don't really keep up with CV talk anyway. But it seems like it's just another buzzword people throw around. You're not targeting anyone in particular, just everyone who has at some point defended DDs. But you can help how you use the English language. Like I said, this case wasn't really offensive, though of course there are people who would be offended by it, just turn it back a notch, will ya? If you're overextended you've pushed alone into the enemy team. That's not cruiser vs DD, that's cruiser vs team. Obviously that's a bad move. You have to push as a team, or at least as more of a team than the enemy. Also, what are your DDs doing? Oh, as a side-note, rushing DDs is something I like to do in the Kebab if the enemy DD doesn't have too much support, or if it's a KM DD; hydro/smoke is dangerous. Kebab doesn't have planes, radar or hydro, but instead speed an no citadel, so it's all good. I don't need to know your history to know bad behaviour. As been mentioned, area denial. It's not a fun thing. Radar is essentially an area denial tool. So I'm not killing someone if I hold him down while my friend whacks him with a wrench? I wonder what a judge would say about that. If players die when they wouldn't have died without radar then radar was the cause of that player's death. You got good XP though, so stats show it wasn't a bad game. But yeah, stats are kind bad in telling how good any one game is. At best they can give you a general idea. Radar is an offensive tool as well as a defensive tool. Is this even in question? I like those matches in the Kebab. It's a refreshing change. Though not as much of a change as it is for most Kebab-players I assume. But more PR means bigger e-peen.

If that's the case you want to make then you're using an experienced player vs three players who did what they could to lose. If they'd just not tried to cap they'd have won. Instead they gathered like fish in a barrel just waiting for the execution. That case is about as strong against stealth torping as @ForlornSailor's example match where three of his DDs died to the only radar cruiser in the match because they sat on their asses in smoke is against radar. Complete idiots playing like complete idiots isn't a good argument in a balance discussion. As an anectote, I got one of my Solo Warrior medals from a game kinda like that, also in the Kamikaze. Enemy was just too dumb to realise they'd win if they'd just not try to cap.

Like with about all other things, you can do it successfully, especially if you're good and the enemies are bad, but it's not something that's very likely to happen a lot. I've managed to break through too, but trying usually fails. Though I tend to take some ship with me down.

Of course rushing BBs can be stopped in a campy meta. After all, they'd rush into all the campers and get focus-fired. Claiming anything else is silly. BBs camp because they can still do reasonably well sitting well behind everone else. Mostly because damage is king (and queen and jack) when it comes to rewards and BBs can always do damage from farther away than anyone else, not counting a few T8-9 BBs with shorter range than some really stupid torps.

I'd love to have a dynamic crosshairs with angled lines. Also, does spotter plane lower dispersion or do anything with the aim assistance? Since it seems like when I have a spotter plane up the shells more often go to where I aim, even if that's off target, with a tighter grouping. Or is that just the angle making it seem like that?

Yes.

Well, that gives me an idea... But the question is, should be be a British captain or a German U-boat captain? #wowssubswhen

Yeah. Lack of in-game information is a huge issue in this game. It's not Dorf Fortress, but it's still bad. Not being able to see consumables of non-owned ship is really shady from WG's side. A lot of bad player issues could be solved with more information being available in the game. Of course, there are always the kind of players who will take any chance they can to skip the tutorial, so you can't help everyone.

That kinda looks like my winrate in that ship... Oh wait, my winrate is 33% over a completely relevant number of games. The potatocreep is real. Yeah. Those games can be pretty horrible. But on the plus side I got a whole 4 (four) plane kills in a single game in the Jianwei. The ship has an AA DPS of 11 at 2.5km. Yes, I've mentioned this game before, but it's an interesting (to me) example. Hmm.. Now that I've had the time to properly look through the thread it does seem like I was a bit hasty in judging the situation. It seemed a bit weird how heated it got over something of no importance before I got into it, and other people were saying the same thing, so I just kinda assumed it was supposed to be important, meaning part of an actual argument. And again, I think Capra made the same mistake I did. I apologize for the misunderstanding and drawing it out more than necessary. If it only were those bad players with thousands of games that had trouble with radar then it'd be fine. But there are more players that don't know how to deal with it.

Of course it's harder to cap in a cruiser. DDs are specialised for that kind of work, cruisers aren't. And they don't cap the same way. Cruisers can be used to drive a DD out of a cap, then take it over. But if the enemy DD has support you need equal support yourself. Your hydro will protect you and your support from torps and you can use a spotter plane to spot enemies lobbing over islands. No, it was because you said that in a post addressed to me. What you said about there being 4-5 DDs/team in a few of your matches may be correct, but it's not relevant to the discussion of balance. Server stats are relevant. Otherwise I could just post a few screenshots with CV games and say that you don't need radar because CVs can spot and screw anyone saying that CVs are rare. @Capra76 seems to hold a similar position as I do. From what I can tell he posted server stats because you used your own personal experience as proof for how the meta looks like, not because he wanted to say that your games didn't happen. Then there was some unconstructive "debate" about average and observational bias that I didn't really read too much into. He also didn't say that everyone saying there are games with 4-5 DDs/team is a liar. @159Hunter did the right thing and asked for the source of the stats, which was provided (at least I assume the stats were behind the posted link). Oh, and I may have said that you were arguing it. I mispoke. I meant to say that were using it as an argument. Sorry for the confusion. The problem is that you're using "can't deal with radar" as a definition for "is not a decent player". "Surely" you hit something? You may hit something if you're lucky. But if you use skill you will hit so much more. Radar is similar in this regard. It doesn't require skill to use. Unless you're doing the BB thing at the A line you can just press the button and you might catch a DD off guard, free to shoot at. But if you use actual skill you have a much higher chance of catching that DD and you can influence the game so much more. Because there's an actual discussion going on. I'd want to be in the team with the Kebabs. A DD going for a cap with a Kebab playing close support? From personal experience as the Kebab in these situations, I can say that that's an excellent combination.