_Teob_

Yeah, I feel like we sort of need to know if it's this weekend.

I genuinely think that you can only do that vs Bensons as their guns aren't great. A fletcher or a Gearing especially will eat you alive and you will do like 6-7k dmg to it tops.

Totally disagree. I generally won't touch anything below tier 8. I find low tier matches on the whole insanely irritating. I'll go to the lower tiers on occasion but it's like going to the zoo just to watch the chimps - it's sort of entertaining to watch everyone flail around and fling poo at each other but it gets annoying fast.

It really isn't irrelevant. Better at close range would mean better average damage. What you are suggesting and what a bunch of us are trying to explain is that it would mean buffing the class that is already better than all the others. And we've already established that we don't know what the breakdown of damage is. I am not discounting what you're saying and in principle BBs are probably the main source of damage but on the other hand they also are the main source of damage for DDs as well and BBs tend to shoot at CAs a lot. So your assessment that a significant proportion of BBs average damage is on other BBs is at the very least not proven and at the worst, wrong.

Are you now disputing average damage? Check out warships today or wows-numbers. You continue to discount anything that doesn't agree with you. This is indeed pointless, I am out.

Fair enough. Not worth debating that anyway as it doesn't work like that now. Thanks for the explanation though.

You do not have a leg to stand on. You use statistics when you think they suit your argument and you dismiss them when they don't and you are dismissing any opposing views. Statistically, BBs are top of the food chain. Average damage does not show the range but it's still the best metric to use. Range applies to individual players so while you might not do great one match, another BB will be doing very well indeed hence the average damage will be relevant. That chart you linked is not 100% accurate as it would imply that the shell can leave the barrel at a 90 degree angle in order for it to disperse like that. It's like the shot is fired at point 0 and for it to disperse 80m it would have to not travel forward at all. I don't see how that's possible. You are also assuming that every shot you take will disperse to the maximum value. That doesn't happen too often I should imagine. And again all that is a moot point as average damage for BBs is still the highest - if you are struggling then it's you. It's as simple as that. Statistically you should be outperforming all other ships around you that are not BBs. That's the bottom line: BBs are not weak. I feel like this discussion is totally pointless and I am engaging someone who seems more intent on having an argument rather than debating the issue.

Right OK. I will address your points one at a time. EdiJo, on 16 June 2016 - 02:02 PM, said: People here tend to miss the subject. The problem is not "I can't 100% snipe that cruiser from 20km", but rather "I can't hit a broadside cruiser from 5km, and even if I do, it does pitiful overpen damage because RNG moves the aim from citadel area to some unprotected thing". If you can't hit a broadside cruiser at 5km then it's your own fault. Dispersion can't "disperse" enough at that range. If you do hit it and say all your shots would be overpens there are two things to note: 1) overpens do 10% of the maximum AP dmg so with 8 shells that's still around 10k dmg - that is NOT pitiful as even on a tier 10 CA that's around 20-25% of their total HP. 2) you aimed poorly. At 5 km on a broadside cruiser you SHOULD be able to land a citadel as long as you aim well EdiJo, on 16 June 2016 - 02:02 PM, said: And of course the same whining "BB have the highest average damage!" - while forgetting what "average" means, and that "average" doesn't always happen when it is needed the most, like when you eagerly waited this damn half a minute, have a cruiser burning/AP-ing you from 5km every ~10 secs and he's just broadsiding to torpedo you back to port. First of all, nobody is whining. Making a counterargument is not whining. Average damage is not supposed to happen reliably. You are making a correlation that is clouding your judgement on the issue. Average damage simply means that a BB does, on average more damage than any other class (except CVs). If you want to look at how reliable damage is we would need to look at the damage range between games. i.e. if a ship's damage range is between 60-70k per game then that would be reliable damage, conversely, if a ship's damage range per match is 20-110k then it's unreliable. There is currently no statistic covering this so we can only speculate. If you are having problems with taking out cruisers with battleships constantly then you need to get better (and I say this with all due respect so please don't get offended as it's not aimed at you in particular). Cruisers are a BBs main "pray" item and you should be able to reliably kill/cripple them. And as Ictogan said, if you get within 5km of a torpedo cruiser it is undoubtedly your own fault. I will repeat myself, BBs are not meant to be immortal murder-machines. EdiJo, on 16 June 2016 - 02:02 PM, said: I would gladly exchange my chance to delete a cruiser from 20km to be able to defend myself at a distance 3-4 times shorter. You can do both. Again, if you aim properly, a cruiser at 10km or less should be dead/crippled. If you don't aim properly it's your own fault. EdiJo, on 16 June 2016 - 02:02 PM, said: BTW, although citadeling a cruiser is quite frequent, most of this "highest dmg" is done ... against other BBs. So we have BB on the both sides of the equation. Highest numbers are mainly because BB are designed to fight ships which have the highest HP pool, simple as that - and it has little to being "powerful" when facing other classes. I think most classes' highest damage is done against BBs. However I, much like you, don't have any evidence that is not anecdotal to support this claim but I am basing this on the fact that BBs have the highest health pools (both default and effective i.e. the amount of damage they can repair). But BBs tend to mostly hunt cruisers first and foremost and BBs second so I wouldn't discount the damage done to cruisers but again, we don't know what percentage of the damage is done to which class. BBs are powerful when facing all other classes (to varying degrees). Even the dreaded DDs will vaporise if they get spotted and shot by BBs. Lastly, think of it this way, one of the most popular and common type of videos we see around are compilation of cruisers getting one-shot by BBs. That shows a certain degree of frequency that BBs encounter in doing that which is not as common for other classes. Apologies to the other forum members for the lengthy wall of text.

So your aim was off. It happens. What's your point?

Yes, it just shows you how to aim as far as I can tell. This is a different discussion anyway. I just take issue with some random person accusing me of cheating (if that's what he meant). I stand by what I said, a good BB player will reliably land shots (with varying numbers of shells landing due to dispersion RNG) on targets (except DDs) at 15 km and below. If you get 2-3 shells to penetrate per salvo that will do around 10-15k dmg. If you get a citadel and a couple of penetrations then 20k salvos are not uncommon. In my humble opinion, should BB dispersion be buffed, it would lead to a lot of 1-shots even BB on BB (never mind CAs) which makes the game less fun. It would also promote even more sniping which again, is detrimental.

No, I heard about it from the US forums but it never dawned on me that people would actually accuse players on the damn forums of using it and I didn't think of it when he mentioned it. I mean that's literally someone with no evidence whatsoever making a baseless (and serious in my eyes) accusation. That's why I was asking because, before telling someone to f right off, I want to make sure I didn't misunderstand them.

Sorry, what? I have no clue what you're talking about. Edit: Oh wait, are you accusing me of cheating? Is that what's going on here?

Firing battleship guns is nowhere near a lottery. If your aim is good you will either get citadels or at the very least do horrendous pen dmg. If you can't get 3-4 shells on a target at 15km or less, then you need to improve your aim. All classes die when out of position but only BBs will stay alive long enough to potentially take a couple enemies down with it. You are not supposed to be an immortal murder-machine. There is no debate here - BBs have the highest average dmg on pretty much all tiers (excluding CVs).

Any Hindenburg captain worth his salt will take the RoF upgrade so the range will actually be 17.8 km. Secondly the penetration values aren't that great so you ideally want to be at around 14-15km. And like I said, you will possibly get one good salvo and then whatever it is that you're shooting at will turn. Yes you can start firing HE and it does work to an extent but if you want to do that why not just grab a Moskva instead? Also the HE has crap penetration so it actually doesn't do a lot of dmg. At any rate, again, even the best players (top 5%) are getting worse results than the Zao or Moskva in both the DM and the Hindi so there's obviously something at play.

On top of what Sander said, even if you are firing at targets showing broadside, you will generally land one salvo and then even the worst player in the world will turn so you have to change targets or accept that you will do very little dmg. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't. Exceptional players will make it work but even exceptional players get a lot of their dmg on BBs which is why the Hindenburg average xp is lower than all other tier 10 cruisers. A Zao HE murder-salvo can do anywhere up to around 8-12k dmg regardless of angling (on top of fires). So the dmg ticks for the Zao are sort of like 1st salvo: 8-12k (depending on how many shells land; +fire) 2nd salvo: 10k (corrected firing angle so more shells land angle; + fire) 3rd salvo 6k (depleted infrastructure; +fire) All subsequent salvos will do at least 6kish until target is RIP etc. Hindenburg conversely will be like: 1st salvo: 15-18k 2nd salvo: 5k (incomplete angling) 3rd salvo 2-3k All subsequent salvos will do around 2-5k And DM will be: 1st salvo: 10-12k (AP) 2nd salvo: 8k (because of lol-penetration) 3rd salvo: 4-5k (HE; maybe +fire) then if the target stays within 12-13km (or less) you will either burn/he spam it down or ap the crap out of it if it shows any side, if it runs away, you're done. If you add it all up you find that the dmg difference is that 20-25% that the Hindenburg and DM do less than the Zao . Zao and Moskva have reliable guns and dmg. That's the main issue at play here imo. AP and high arcs are unreliable but people just see the RoF from the DM and 12k salvos on broadside BBs from the DM while the Zaos and Moskvas are busy racking up the dmg.

Haha. To be fair you had just turned so I knew you weren't gonna turn again. Also we had an Atago in cap so I guessed that your team would think that it had been the Atago that capped and that was spotting you so it was just one of those situations. I did a full murder top salvo on you from 6.5 km - no way you could have dodged that. We shouldn't have lost that but our Zao refused to shoot at Reyte and instead focused Joe_Jitsu in his Tirpitz. I think that his thinking was that had he killed Joe, the match would have been won. Didn't work out. I must admit that I was annoyed at the RNG on the salvo that Reyte landed on me. 3 shells and none of them overpenned so I took like 10k dmg.

Yup, that's exactly what I said as well. They both need a slight buff. For the comparison just click on the ship in your profile and it will bring up a comparison with other ships at its tier (same class) and just select which percentage of the population you would like to see the results for. The figures also seem to be quite consistent with what Captain_Hook_ shared as well (and they have been in the past as well) so I for one consider the source validated at least at a trend level.

Don't do this. Despite what you may have heard or seen amazing players do, 99 times out of 100 you will get blown out of the water if you use your guns. Your guns are only a last resort and you should use them almost like a battleship (because of the slow rotation) i.e. try to plan well in advance and rotate them in the right direction before you open up and always leave yourself an escape route. When Flamu made that Shima video, a lot of people thought that they can do that as well. I've seen Shimas try to fight me in both my Khaba or my Gearing. I've seen Fubukis try to gun down Bensons. And it almost never works. Yes the alpha dmg is high and the arcs are great but the rate of fire is abysmal and the turret rotation is awful. IJN ships are primarily torpedo boats imo.

You can check the torp detection ranges yourself if you hover your cursor over the torpedoes in the expanded menu on the right. What's most likely happening is your torps are quite slow so people just change direction and such before you actually hit them. Don't always launch based on the indicator and wait for enemies to finish a turn and launch right after (or before, if you can gauge where they will be going) as someone that just made a turn is less likely to make another one very soon.

Not as far as I can tell. At the top 5% of the population DM has 800 less avg dmg (which is almost negligible) but the Hindenburg has fewer kills, a lower win rate and less average xp per game. Again, the Hindenburg is the worse performer. At any level it's true that the DM has slightly less dmg than the Hindenburg but the difference is absolutely minimal. Souce: wows-numbers.com With respect, I think you're just an exceptional player so an outlier that should be removed from the picture before drawing any conclusions. And your personal experience isn't mirrored by either the public at large or by the top 5% of the playerbase. Basically at the moment, no matter how you look at it, the Hindenburg is performing worse than the DM. Having said, they both perform considerably worse than the Moskva and the Zao so they both probably need to be looked at.

Well actually currently KM cruisers are the worse ones. Performance numbers suggest that it's a tie between the Moskva (higher WR, lower dmg) and the Zao (lower WR, higher dmg) with DM coming in third and the Hindenburg on the bottom (similar dmg to the DM but lower WR and much lower average XP and also fewer kills)

Met Strangers (Midway), Reyte (Montana) and mtm (Zao) yesterday. Torpedoed mtm in his Zao relatively early on and then Reyte killed me in my Gearing with a 14km shot. Dispersion was pretty much perfect for him. They won the match in the last second with 3 points. Although the timer seemed to reach 0 and then another cap ticked over and gave them the points to win Close and fun match Also ran into Dropsiq in ranked twice in his Indy. I think I lose one match and I can't remember what happened in the second match. Also ran into T_H_0_R a couple of times in random battles. He was gracious and said hello.

Hi captains! Does anyone have any information on Cruiser AP penetration values? I keep reading that pen is: USN -> VMF -> IJN=KM Is that accurate? If it is, does anyone have the source for this information? Please feel free to add in any additional information. The reason I am asking is because to me, KM to me seems to have the most penetration power and IJN the least. However the USN cruisers seem to be able to pen at shallower angles. Basically my experience both confirms and contradicts what I have read so I want to do a little digging. Thanks!

do we get 2.5x captain xp this weekend as per the 10th stretch goal of GNB?

I don't believe this is about you or anyone like you. I never understand these kinds of answers. Yes there will be false positives but that doesn't change the fact that you can access a software package that would give you an undue edge over others. I think we should be discussing things like this to raise awareness. Cheating in any game is seen as a serious offence. Maria Sharapova just got banned from tennis for 2 years because it was judged that she had an unfair advantage - that's just how it works: there will always be cheaters and there will always be people that will want them punished and that are worried that someone they are in direct competition with is not playing fairly. I am sure WG will "break" this mod at some point.