_Teob_

The most important thing you get is you learn to play the game if you join a good clan. Conversely, if you're not totally anti-social, you might find a group of like-minded individuals if you care about other aspects. I think there's even a sort of role-playing clan out there. Also yes the virgin sacrifices.

I think calling it "tactics" implies that we're at that level of sophistication. A lot of people simply aren't. We're at the "common sense" barrier at the moment. For example, yesterday, I totally lost my calm in chat on a standard battle on hotspot. We were south and at the start of the match, I saw most of my team going west while the enemy team was massing to go through what would be point C in a domination match. I typed in chat that we have to defend our base and that if we move into positions it's an easy fight (it's always easier to defend than to attack in this game). Everyone except a khaba ignored me. So another DD and I got destroyed on the cap, we also had a cruiser that died like a fly at a fly swatter convention at which point the khaba (who had been the most western ship) got to the cap and was focused down quickly by like 8 enemy ships (that by this time had taken positions around our cap and in the cap itself). I totally lost my cool - I can't remember everything I said, but it wasn't nice. Although in my defense, a Yam did call me a c-word and then he said he couldn't turn (I don't know why) - this only triggered me even more. Of course he could have turned but he was afraid of the enemy ships at like 16-18km. This was a matter of common sense and using the minimap - you see the enemy going toward your cap, you go there... or at least you read chat. I felt bad after for being rude but goddamn was it frustrating - not an excuse though. But my point I genuinely don't understand how people can be like this. I don't think it's difficult, we are not talking competitive-level tactics here just common sense.

No, I am just joking because you keep making it about you. As you just did... again. I don't have a problem with anything. My survival rate hovers around 70% - that is more than I should have as it's higher than my win rate. There is no reason to be alive if you lose a match. I keep explaining what the issue actually is and what we're saying here, and you're just ignoring it and just keep talking about your survival rate and your kagero. The Gearing is bigger and sits higher in the water than a Kagero - they are not the same! Neither is the Grozovoi or the Z52. You are basing all your opinions on 50 matches played in a small and stealthy DD. We are saying that we think something is wrong - we are basing this opinion on thousands of matches. You think you are simply better than everyone involved - and you might very well be better than all of us. But think of it this way, if you're the only one who can do it and us poor scrubs are getting deleted by BBs, isn't that an issue in itself? Isn't it potentially a problem that BBs don't have to switch ammo at all? Again, for the last damn time, this is not about you!

This was pretty much my point constantly.

I mean sure... but then you can't really do anything else. And if you want to go Khaba hunting, get a z52, get close, drop smoke + hydro (torps not an issue anymore) and you do 5k AP salvos on its broadside. A full gun specced Gearing will kill a Grozo, I think. If the Grozo doesn't run away or simply smoke up and disengage. Even at range the amount of shells the Gearing can put out is scary. But at 8km obviously, the Grozo will win easily. And if I am perfectly honest, I think that any Khaba with half a brain will just turn after the first AP salvo and then ruin your Gearing. But if you do build it for guns alone then you might as well take a Grozo instead. I mean if you give up the torpedoes, what do you have?

Oh it lacks a lot of things: - decent manoeuvrability - smaller size - torp dmg etc. But it does have something truly unique: russian guns on a stealthy boat. No other DD has that. My point is that the Gearing doesn't have anything unique. I genuinely prefer the Fletcher to it. More torp dmg, lower torp cd and I still get around 75% of the Gearing gun dmg which is enough to fight everything the Gearing fights as well.

Fixed. It's 4k. As in 20-33% of a DD hp at t10. Basically equivalent to a citadel... that you can't repair and that can happen from any angle.

But the real question is, have you noticed his survival rate? This is surely the topic here - his survival rate. It's really high... please notice is survival rate

Ok, so several points. 1) Gearing actually has higher base torpedo reload than the Grozo. This means that a fully torp spec'd Gearing has 104s reload on torpedoes, a non torp spec'd Grozo has 129. Yes that's a big difference but no big enough for the Grozo to not be able to torp. And if that's your concern, maybe try a Gearing spec on the Grozo. You would lose some gun DPM but you would gain a lot of torpedo dpm instead. 2) AA does matter. I regularly have 10+ plane kills in games with CVs regardless of tier. If it's a tier 8, I can get closer to 20. Also, AA isn't something to be taken on its own, basically the Grozo can add its AA to the group. 3) The Gearing does not have very good torps at all. In fact a fully torp spec'd Gearing has the same torpedo DPM as a Z52 so why not use that if you want to torpedo stuff? It has better arcs on its guns, better fire starting chance... And if torpedoing stuff is your thing, the Fletcher or the Shima are much better at it. Which is the real issue, the Gearing doesn't excel at anything anymore. 4) The only situation where a Gearing would indeed be better is if you are totally on your own against several ships and you're spending your time torping them. That is a bad situation to be in and you won't get a lot of torpedo hits on targets that know you're there anyway. And even then the Grozo has the advantage of speed, which means you can position better so it's not a total landslide. And again, a Fletcher would be much better in that situation and arguably a Z52 as well. Look nobody is questioning the fact that a fully spec'd torpedo Gearing is better at torpedoes than a non-torpedo spec'd Grozo. But fact of the matter is gun dmg is more reliable so up until you get to that end game point where you can only use torpedoes (which by the way, rarely happens - I usually still have a couple of buddies left at the end of the match) the Grozovoi contributes a lot more. Now I won't argue with you because I know you're a good player so I assume that, if you've made up your mind, I won't change it, nor do I want to convince anyone that the Grozo is better. Each to their own. But you created the only situation where the Gearing is better and then decided that's representative for gameplay in general - this is a bit misleading.

How can you still not understand? It's not only about how you get lit up by radar, it's also about how much dmg you take when that happens. Minimal in the Kagero, huge in the Gearing if a BB fires at you. Also detection range by air is smaller in the Kagero, which I assume you know already. And while the effect of radar is the same obviously, everything else isn't. But again, we're not talking about how you get detected or about your survival rate (even though, I am sure you have convinced everyone by now that it's great). We're talking about survivability. And the fact of the matter is that at 12 km, firing at a Kagero will yield significantly worse results than firing at a Gearing, Grozovoi, Z52, Fletcher etc.

So now you're saying that because you played the Kagero, you also know what it's like to play a Gearing? It's not about mystery, it's about knowing what you're talking about which you don't. A Gearing plays very differently to a Shima, that plays differently to a Minekaze - it's not only what ship you're in but what you're up against. A Grozovoi is different again etc. DDs don't tend to play the same at all at high tiers. How can you even say that just because you played 50 matches in a Kagero, you know exactly what it's like playing in those other ships?

No, sorry but no. A BB can be smoked if it's in trouble. What can a DD do when it's been spotted and takes a random 15k dmg?

You are changing the subject... again. You can't just call something I wrote arrogant because it sounds interesting to you. My reply is not arrogant in the least. You came out with a statement that implied you know something the rest of us don't. I called you out on it - you still haven't given a reply as to how does your 51 matches in a kagero help a Gearing or a Grozo avoid BB AP shells. The reason you don't have an issue is because you don't know the ships. You simply don't know what you're talking about. I also don't have a problem with any of the Victoria's Secret models.

No, you do not. You are condescending and you try to shoehorn your survival rate into every discussion. What's more, you ignore any questions or arguments that aren't about your survival rate or that would put a dent in your views. Lastly, even your pointless survival rate means nothing. Because you are one person. Maybe you can in fact do something that the wider population can't. This makes you and your survival rate irrelevant. A sample size of one is useless. So when you use yourself and your precious survival rate as a counterargument, consider the possibility that you may in fact be superhuman at this game and try to see it from other people's point of view.

There is no new effect on AP shells. Radar, hydro and RPF combined with the loss of stealthfiring changed DD playstyle a lot.

I agree - I am sorry for any input I had in driving that. My main point is that suvivability for DDs is worse now than it was in the past due to a myriad of factors (radar, hydro, loss of stealth fire - I won't insist on the matter) but on top of everything, BB AP (which on its own wasn't an issue before) is now the scariest thing that can happen to you in a DD. It's more difficult now which I believe is putting people of DDs in general. And on the horizon we have more potential nerfs to smoke etc. I don't agree with the OP on the Khaba - I think the dmg the Khaba takes is fine as it has a much easier time dealing with HE. But all other DDs don't have that benefit. However, one silver lining is that WG did say that they would look into why sometimes shells are doing DMG to multiple sections which is making the issue worse so at the moment, my pitchfork and torch are on standby until that's been thoroughly investigated as it shouldn't happen.

I agree - but in my initial reply to him I mentioned the issue I see including the tier. i.e. getting blasted at long range by BB AP at tier 8 and above and he keeps ignoring that and giving me advice on what to do at tier 5 which was never my concern. I don't think DD survivability at low tiers is an issue. (also, thank you - you are far too kind )

I genuinely do not consider myself good enough to make a guide. I'd be more than happy to discuss my opinions here or in private messages or on team speak. I even occasionally spend time with people and try to teach them the basics because I do genuinely want to help the community. I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you or at least point you toward a member of TTT that loves that boat and can give you some insight into how it's best played effectively. That said, I am not good enough to do proper guides. I am still very much in a learning process myself. In my ideal world, I'd like to bring together people like @lobuzjeden, @Ilixill and @LittleTigru for example (among others) and put together a definitive DD handbook - these are players that are several classes above me skill wise. I also think that DDs should have more of an esprit de corps - you know, honour among pirates and that but that's a different discussion altogether.

It just isn't logical thinking at all - it is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue due to lack of experience. You are basing everything on a very limited number of games, in the most stealthy ship in the game at t8 and above. Additionally, it's a very small ship compared to the others so it is easier to dodge incoming fire in it and because of its size, when you do get hit, the chance of overpens is much higher. The arrogance part is you thinking that the rest of us are just incapable of thinking as much as you. You are voicing opinions based on nothing and you have arbitrarily decided that you have some revolutionary tactics. Your whole position in this debate rests on you having an unusually high survival rate. Yes you can see the radar ship if it's a DM in a Gearing and you can kite it assuming you are already moving in the opposite direction - but you won't see a Kagero/Yugumo spotting you. You might know where they are due to RPF but they can just keep you spotted until you die - much in the same way you described. Secondly, a chepayev for example has longer radar range than it's detection range. It can radar you without you even seeing it. In fact all high tier russian cruisers have very long range radar (11.7km) - they can pretty much just hide behind an island and radar you. You won't always see it coming. Third, you are not always in the right position. You might be in a smoke and a DD came in and lit you up with hydro (like a z52 for example). Or a radar ship got close enough without you noticing. On that note, the z52 has a 200m difference between its hydro range and its detection range. You will not simply kite it away especially because it's faster than most DDs at t10 with speed boost turned on. And at any rate, I cannot believe we are debating whether or not you get spotted when playing DDs. It happens all the time.

Wait so you're "teaching" me based on 51 matches? Do you even realize that means nothing whatsoever? That is not a consistent base size. While your survival rate is impressive, it's on a statistically insignificant base size - my point stands, you have virtually no experience at high tiers. I also don't know what your other stats look like because you hide them. Taken on its own survival rate means nothing but you do seem to have high survival rates on all your ships, so there's that. I am not even saying you're a bad player, just that you don't know what you are talking about. You can see the DM and it can't see you for 500meters. Then you are in his radar range. you won't even have time to turn. You spot him at 10.4 and you won't have time to turn before you are in his radar range if you are bow on. Also how are you going to kite in anything that doesn't have the best stealth at its tier and above like the Kagero? This by the way is no revolution in DD playstyle - IJN DDs have been trying to keep stuff spotted while maintaining gun silence since the start of the game as they always had a detection advantage over USN DDs. You have brought nothing new to the table. Even if your "experience" would be worth taking into consideration (which it isn't), it only covers the stealthiest DD line in the game, oh great thinker. It doesn't solve the issue for the other lines. You are actually completely sure that you know better - I rarely see this kind of arrogance. And we both know that you are far too deep down this rabbit hole of arrogance to ever admit that you might not know everything.

1. No you cannot. At high tiers BB accuracy is good enough and DDs are sluggish enough that you won't dodge all of them. And you especially won't dodge if 2 or more BBs fired at you. 2. Yes, of course I use RPF. It helps but when it's pointing straight at a cap that you are going for, your only option is to not go for that cap. That is in fact not an option. You still need caps. You can't just avoid other DDs the whole match. At some point you will run into one and then you will be lit up. And you cannot avoid a DM radar unless he fired his guns before and was spotted. His detection range is 500m more than his radar range. You will get occasionally lit up by radar - it's just a reality. We can discuss the different tactical uses for RPF if you want. 3. You are thinking of the start of the match. Planes are an issue throughout a match. You cannot always fall back fast enough either. In fact if they are heading straight for you you will barely cover 1-2km before you get spotted by them. Now some of my own points. 1) I have over 3500 matches in DDs. Most of them at high tier. Anything that you think you can teach me, there is a good chance I already know. I am open to suggestions but please at least consider that I may know what I am talking about before coming out saying how we clearly don't think enough. Don't speak like someone that knows everything unless you are sure you do. Stop assuming that you actually know better than everyone - a bit of self doubt is very healthy. 2) I have thought about this issue numerous times. I have discussed it with much better DD players than me - so understand this once and for all: there is no counter play to getting hit with BB AP - you WILL get spotted in every match, it is unavoidable and you will get shot at by BBs. After that it's a dice roll if you get deleted or just hit with 2 overpens. 3) If your experience doesn't cover t8+ then we are talking about different things. At t7 and below it's super easy kindergarten mode. Virtually no radar, BBs are slow and have horrible dispersion, cruisers are incredibly vulnerable and DDs tend to have big detection ranges so you spot each other at bigger distances so farther away from big guns, torpedoes are slow and few comparatively - it's just easy. Not the same at high tiers.

Yes but in your post you basically imply that the rest of us aren't thinking when we say that there's no counter to BB pens on DDs. I am still waiting to hear about your insight on how to deal with that at high tiers. Edit: Oh and btw, I have have between 65%-70% survival rate in t10 DDs in case you thought that I am some suicidal berserker.

That sounds very clever. Like something a Kung Fu master would say. Or Yoda. So can you please tell me how you brain your way out of being spotted by an enemy DD or plane or radar (from a ship that has the same concealment range as its radar range) and then you lose most of your health to a couple of BBs shooting at you from 12-14km? What sort of thinking do you do to avoid that? I am talking about t8 and above.

Shima should have 3x4 lauchers (or maybe even 3x3) with the lowest cooldown in the game on them. Fewer torpedoes = less torpedo soup lower cd = fewer waiting times and opens up the possibility of different specs. 15 torpedoes is just a bad design (historical accuracy be damned).