_Teob_

I really liked this season. I ranked out in the Anshan - I thought it was the perfect DD for the role. I am surprised it wasn't a more popular boat this season.

I agree! Which is why I wouldn't use a Gearing currently.

And nobody should set up a Gearing as a full gun boat. If they do, you can just smoke and then gtfo safe in the knowledge that they won't really be able to contribute too much to the game and, if you catch them at like 7-8km, you will farm them for free xp. Gearings are always set up for torps with very little into guns - not even BFT most of the time...

Why shouldn't the Grozo get within 7/8km of enemy DDs?

Oh I didn't mean you.in particular. The only think you're "guilty" of is showing OP stats and that. You basically went to a higher level than I think is required now. The OP needs a bat and you brought him/her a scalpel lol. At any rate, I don't want to derail this - the OP thinks the Khaba is unplayable and weak. This is factually wrong.

Not disputing that at all. But what is the point of simply telling him he sucked before and still does now. What I am saying is that this is a "deeper" issue for the OP. I am not excusing him/her here in any way. Nor am I saying that his/her initial post wasn't a bit whiny. But if the point is to explain why he/she is wrong rather than to point at him and laugh (despite the strong temptation to do so). Edit: The answers seem quite vague. It's not completely incorrect - that's a bit of an overstatement. At any rate, my point was more along the lines of the OP needs more specific help as he/she clearly doesn't understand the ship at a fundamental level. But I take your point, the way I expressed myself is not entirely accurate.

Assuming this isn't a troll thread, bashing the OP is counterproductive. What nobody seems to take into consideration is that a below average player will be hit by the nerfs much more than an above average player. So technically the ship might be almost unplayable for the OP now because he/she simply wasn't very good at it before (which is nothing to be ashamed of in itself). Not a single answer in this thread gave OP a build for the Khaba or explained the play style. Anyway, OP, look first of the the Khaba is a very strong ship. Always was and always will. I understand that you're having some issues with it and that your particular play style has been affected by the nerf. That said, I think that your particular play style wasn't the best for the boat anyway. I am no expert in it, indeed, it's my worse t10 DD, but try this spec and try to focus on spamming ships from 12-13km or so. Preferably ships that are already fighting something else so shooting at you presents them with a cost of opportunity. I suggest watching Flamu's vids on the Khaba. They are relatively old but the optimum play style hasn't changed in a long time for it.

No, I agree - Khaba doesn't need a buff. Even an indirect one. And that whole modules absorbing HE is another bug imo. I don't think that should happen. And yeah, I see your thinking @loppantorkel - I am not sure how you'd go about that though. Like leave kiting/CL-like DDs alone and improve capping DDs is difficult. The Khaba isn't as affected by HE because of those damn 50mm plates. I think that we'd need to exclude Khaba from discussions in general when it comes to DDs. They really don't fit the same profile. I am not sure how you'd sort out this whole mess.

Udaloi doesn't have heal and is actually not that hard to kill. I think it's an OK boat. Strong in the same way the Fletcher is strong. Khaba yeah, I see your point but I think Khaba would take normal pens anyway due to the 50mm plates. The thing is ideally, I don't want to nerf dmg to DDs - I just want to get BBs to switch to HE. Like I said a while back, a BB can be a monster of the sea, that's fine. But in my mind it needs to be in BB/CA deletion mode with AP and in DD deletion mode with HE.

But a normal penetration on a DD does similar damage as a citadel on a cruiser (if not more) as a percentage of health. I think people are a bit on edge after the last 5 pages of arguing for nothing and besides the point.

Yes, I wonder what could have given me the impression that you're enamored with your survival rate. Oh, I know! Well you say that but... etc. This is how you rocked up to this thread. I dunno man, it seems pretty toxic to me. I just told you to go away and called you a troll (which I still wonder if you are or not). No, you didn't. You discussed only your very limited experience and treated that as though it's the absolute truth. You didn't admit any other perspective. In fact you alluded to the fact that your 50 matches in a kagero taught you everything you need to know about playing the Gearing. This is ludicrous. The reason you have to "defend" yourself is that your opinion doesn't correspond to everyone else's. So naturally people want to know what you're basing your opinion on. When that answer is "50 kagero matches and a bunch of minekaze matches" people get annoyed that you're dismissing their opinions based on considerably more matches. It's common courtesy to at least acknowledge a different opinion when debating. So it all boils down to you having an opinion that goes against the grain, which is fine, but then you didn't back this opinion with anything while dismissing everyone else. I am not pretending to be anything. I don't like the massive waste of time and nerves you (and others like you) caused so I want to get the thread back on track. I refuse to discuss your personal stats anymore. Everyone needs data to backup their opinions. This data can be overwhelming player testimony or actual numbers from specialized sources sites etc. And I am a lot of things but arrogant is not one of them. I desperately tried to get you to show me how you play, I engaged you as an equal while you were "teaching" me how to cap. In fact I think you were called variations of arrogant several times because of your reluctance to accept that limited experience on one ship doesn't make you a god in all of them. Opinions are allowed. This isn't an echo chamber. In fact, before you came along there were a lot of debates throughout the thread. Some people disagreed with the point of view I expressed in the OP which was totally fine. But they didn't dismiss that point of view, they just disagreed with it while acknowledging that for me at least, this whole BB AP thing is an issue. What is frowned upon is what you did, which is treat all other opinions (that are backed up by considerably more data) as invalid. Nobody likes to have their opinion ignored. Especially by someone with dubious credentials. And you are also extremely rude. I will grant you that others have also been less than kind to you but you call everyone that doesn't agree with you "narrow-minded". How is that constructive at all? And here we get to the actual crux of your issue. Nobody said you shouldn't do your own thing. Nobody said that your survival rate isn't impressive (although its value was questioned in the context of this thread). Nobody disqualified you from having an opinion as long as you were willing to discuss other perspectives. Sadly you were not willing to do that at all. And yes, if you had enough matches in the ships that are seen as being particularly affected by this, your opinion would have a lot more weight. It would at least mean that you speak from a position of experience rather than you thinking you can play those ships better despite never having played them. How do you not see that this would get people riled up? From my perspective, it's like telling someone that you could do a better job than them because you saw a documentary on the matter once. Nobody cares about your signature. You are not the centre of anyone's attention. You think highly of yourself that but I promise you, most of us will have forgotten your name in a week's time. You will just be mentioned occasionally as "that dude that thought 50 matches in a Kagero made him an expert in the Gearing" followed by brief laughs or embarrassed snorts. It's not you versus "experienced players". Like I said before, it's you versus yourself. You matter much less than you think to everyone here. So go out there, play, enjoy your time and I genuinely wish you the best of luck and the very best in general. I apologize profusely to everyone for this further off-topic. Last one, I promise.

Oh my god, you made it about you again. It's like you can't help yourself. I keep telling you again and again that your own experience is a) limited and b) inconsequential. And as far as your survival rate goes, like I said before you are running a one man race and patting yourself on the back for winning. For example, I believe, like I've said before, that I see no reason to be alive at the end of a losing match. I will take progressively higher risks until I either win or the match is lost and I die. In fact, if I die but take 2-3 enemy destroyers with me, I might consider that a worthwhile exchange. Not saying that your way of looking at things is wrong just that there are different perspectives. You won the survival rate competition... just that the rest of us didn't know that there was a contest going on. You are obsessed with your survival rate and can't help but make everything about it. This is not constructive. If you do want to share some replays, I'd welcome the opportunity to see what you do. I am happy to learn from anyone but for me to see if you actually do something special, I need more than screenshots. I am offering you the chance to actually contribute in a positive way. I assume that, since you spent all this time debating, you want to win hearts and minds and you truly believe what you say. Do something concrete in that direction. Share some replays and feel free to explain dodging or anything else you feel like. This is my last attempt at engaging you - I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. Prove everyone wrong and show that you are not here just to troll and flaunt your survival rate. If you truly believe that you have something to teach then this is your chance. Step up or shut up. I am begging everyone in this thread, please stop replying if it's not on topic. This whole thread has become far too toxic and if we don't get this back on track, I will get it nuked.

I literally couldn't do anything in that game... everything was running away!

But you don't balance on clues because WG is not Scooby Doo. Like I said, we don't have enough information to ascertain without doubt that if BB AP would be changed (which it will be), it would be a nerf to IJN DDs. We simply don't know. Like I said, IJN DDs need a buff anyway because the very introduction of all the hybrid/gunboat lines nerfed them. But not fixing something which is an issue (at the very least the weird dmg penetrations needs to be fixed) because it might impact something else is not the way to go about it. It's not worth debating here though, this is a different discussion altogether that falls more under IJN DDs needing buffs. Which, yes, they probably do as far as I am concerned.

What is this about now? The Benson is a more well rounded boat than the fubu before or the kagero now, I don't think anyone is disputing that... it's also irrelevant for the topic.

Is the discussion now whether or not the Benson is better than the Fubuki/Kagero? It probably is. Why are we going off on every tangent here? I agree with you in principle in the sense that I don't think DDs need buffs (apart from the Shima). But there are a lot of unknowns so I would suggest caution about forming opinions on a single chart. We need to know the wr distribution of the people playing the ships, we would need to know what the situation would be like if BBs would switch to HE and fire at DDs, we would need to know all these things for all servers etc. That's why I stayed clear of making sweeping statements as I simply don't have all the data. And I know for sure that some BB AP pen damage cannot be explained ie it does a lot more than it should be able to mathematically.

This is the first argument you have made but it is really contrived. You are saying that a nerf to BB ap would be an indirect nerf to torpedo boats. I can sort of see where you are coming from but that should be fixed by lowering Shima detection range as it is now the only torpedo boat at t10 up against a bunch of hybrids. What I am saying is that protecting a poor mechanic because it might indirectly affect a ship that is in obvious need of a slight buff is a wrong way of looking at it (but I do see your point and I agree to a certain extent). Not least because IJN DDs are smaller overall so are less impacted by this AP issue to begin with.

Since when are DDs considered the most dominant and powerful class? I am telling you that statistically, objectively that is not the case. And no, the consensus really is that BBs are the easiest to play because they are very forgiving. And again, getting "advice" from the likes of you is absolutely hilarious. You are genuinely not worth my time. I can't debate this with every "genius" that comes along spewing bollocks. You don't even seem to be able to form coherent thoughts/sentences. I can see that any discussion with you would be totally pointless. I am done with you. That is so dumb, it pains me to read. To you then any complaint is a "whine". How effing stupid is that, eh? What evidence have your provided to support your claim that it's not an issue? What are you basing your affirmations on? I've waited long enough for you to provide anything other than you just saying it's one way or another. You could have at least shared some of your replays showcasing how you dodge if you actually wanted to help, like you said. You are unworthy of anyone's time let alone mine. I am done with you, as well. If you really want to continue this debate (and I use the term loosely), start providing actual evidence to support your claims. Unhide your stats and let's see your actual performance over a considerable number of games, share some replays - something, anything that would support your position other than "I played Gearing on the PTS guy, I really did and it was super easy" I can't spend my time talking to someone that feels everything there is to know about a player can be ascertained in 1-2 matches and that provides no evidence. That's like talking to a flat-earther - it's so silly, it's not worth the time. I am done with these vacuous trolls and their inane opinions unless they start providing some form of evidence. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

But that is not a valid point for a lot of boats. And that is why that's not the point of the discussion. I've said this before, you cannot avoid getting spotted (by a kagero when sailing a Gearing for example). You will get spotted and once you do, the issue is that a single BB AP shell can wipe off 25% of your HP regardless of how much you try to dodge or whatever. That is the issue. If said BB would be firing HE because it was ready for their DDs to spot enemy DDs and did that sort of damage, we would not be having this conversation. Because at the very least my friendly cruisers would be relatively safe.

Just BB shells. Specifically AP shells. HE shells are fine. It's not impossible at all to hit. In fact numerous BB players in this thread alone have said that they find it quite easy to hit DDs because at high tiers BBs get very good shell speed and accuracy. If you struggle, you might want to reach out to some of these players and get their input on how to aim better. Additionally there are numerous videos now of BBs deleting DDs from 12-14 km because of the whole "overconfident" meme. Flamu has quite a few. It's been discussed before ad nauseum - historical accuracy on the weight of the shells or anything else for that matter is unimportant. I believe at some point someone was showcasing how Iowa shells actually had similar penetration to the Yamato ones for example. Don't quote me on that as I don't recall with 100% accuracy. Smoke is not exclusive to DDs. And its purpose is to help ships with no very little/no armour do damage. Otherwise they would just be free kills. DDs have the lowest damage output in the game. It's CV > BB > CA/CL > DD by quite a wide margin actually. Agility, again, without that, DDs would be free kills. And you can't complain about the size after you were just talking about some historical spec for shells. At any rate, with all these traits (smoke, agility, small size, stealth) DDs still have the lowest survival rates overall out of all the classes because mistakes are punished heavily compared to the other classes. I don't think anyone said that. I think all we said (and WG agrees to a certain extent) is that after the removal of stealth fire and with all the radar/hydro on everything these days, DDs are taking a lot more damage from BB AP. All we asked for basically is for BBs to have to at least switch to HE to do catastrophic dmg to DDs. Otherwise why would BBs have HE in the first place if they can just fire AP at everything? If you want to "get" destroyer mains, play destroyers for a bit and try to get more than 50% win rate. The easiest class in the game are BBs by far. This is general consensus even among BB players. BBs have huge health pools, the heaviest armour in the game and some of them might as well not have citadels - they are incredibly forgiving and easy to play. This is not the case with the other classes at all.

You still haven't answered those two questions. Secondly, by that logic, why did you feel the need to start spamming basic information at us since you've never seen us play. How did you decide that you know better? Especially since for example, I don't quite care about my survival rate (which is the only stat in which you excel). But again, and this is the last time I am asking this because if you can't answer these two questions then, like I said, we are wasting our time as it means we have fundamental differences that have nothing to do with the game. - Why won't you, at least, consider that our experience might give us a better perspective than yours? What disqualifies our perspective, in your eyes? - Do you at least, take into consideration that you may be wrong? Not necessarily about this issue in particular, but in general, do you ever have self-doubt? Edit: I like to think I am open to other points of view. Otherwise why would I be engaging you? I already know that my opinion is the general consensus but I am interested in what you have to say specifically because maybe I was wrong on some point. I also regularly PM players that perform better than me to ask for help/advice. I have never said I am the best and therefore I am always right. See, I replied to this silly "how about you" - your turn now.

You didn't answer my questions. The shells are the same but they interact differently on various ships. You are creating a strawman. Nobody said you have to learn the game again but do you disagree that different ships play differently? But that's not the question. The questions is: Why won't you, at least, consider that our experience might give us a better perspective than yours? What disqualifies our perspective, in your eyes? - simply put, why won't you take into consideration other perspectives at all? And do you really believe that 1-2 matches are enough to determine whether a player is good or not? I mean I've seen some of the best players in the world make silly mistakes and end a game with an embarrassing score. Everyone will have at least a couple of virtually 0 damage games over every 1000. If you happen to see that player during that match, according to you, that's a bad player. And again, you didn't answer the second question which is: Do you at least, take into consideration that you may be wrong? Not necessarily about this issue in particular, but in general, do you ever have self-doubt? Do you ever consider that your position might be incorrect?

I completely disagree with that. If that were the case, BBs would just be big floating XP pinatas. Nobody should want any class to not be viable, it's not healthy for the game. I don't want to nerf BBs per se. I just to force them to switch to HE when shooting at DDs to do the kind of dmg that they currently do with AP.

The thing is, you ignore other perspectives. The only perspective you accept as valid is your own (which, I can't stress enough, is based on very limited experience). I genuinely don't understand how/why you ignore everything that doesn't correspond to your view of things. You think this is a weewee measuring contest where you have to prove how much better you are, when this is all about what is objectively a problem. There has been ample evidence to why this is an issue - so much so that WG is taking a look at it. I won't get into that polemic that you are trying to push about us/me being "whiny" because it's counterproductive. A problem that you, objectively cannot fully understand due to limited number of games at high tiers and, more importantly, no games in ships prone to take a lot of normal pen dmg (like the Gearing, Z52, Grozo etc.). Furthermore you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the reasoning behind this whole debate. It's not that we cannot manage and need you to explain basic DD game-play. The core of the issue is passive game-play brought on by a lack of a need to change ammo types for BBs. It means BBs are always in enemy deletion mode regardless of the type of enemy. This also comes after introduction of radar and removal of stealth fire - it is a complex compounded issue that reared its head only after several nerfs to stealth. Now I believe that you disagree with this perspective because you haven't experienced it - you simply haven't taken that many BB pens. That doesn't make the point invalid, it simply means you haven't had that issue.But people generally can understand an issue even though they might have not experienced it. At any rate, it's not you that needs to be convinced. Your opinion doesn't matter because you don't base anything on a single person's perspective. Especially when that perspective is itself based on limited experience. For example, below is my solo win rate for yesterday but I know that's not representative because of the limited number of games - how can you not understand that a small sample size has a high margin of error? However since you clearly care a lot about this issue, I think it's important to establish two things, otherwise this is a waste of both our times. - Why won't you, at least, consider that our experience might give us a better perspective than yours? What disqualifies our perspective, in your eyes? - Do you at least, take into consideration that you may be wrong? Not necessarily about this issue in particular, but in general, do you ever have self-doubt?

Oh not you again... Go away you troll.