_Teob_

And again - total lack of any sort of materials explaining this sort of stuff. I even Googled to see what comes up and the result is a bunch of people asking roughly the same thing and getting answers from the community instead of it being an official game guide or something.

Your nickname and the Specsavers reference is quite funny for some reason.

What is the source for this? I am asking because just looking at stats on wows numbers or warship today, it would seem like there are roughly equal numbers of DDs and Cruisers at t10.

I mused between PT and PM as well but went with PM in the end. those damn 3 torpedo tubes are way too sensitive.

Not taking it relies on wishful thinking. How can you not get spotted? Like how exactly can that happen? If you go for a cap that is contested then you will get spotted. Simply due to the fact that all high tier DDs have roughly the same concealment (apart from the Yugumo and Kagero). And then you have radar, hydro and planes. The best way to decide is to keep track of your health during like 30 or so matches (at least). At 50% HP, AR is a free TAE + BFT. If you're close to that 50% health point in most of those matches, then it's almost mandatory. As a side note, if you're not losing HP then you're not taking enough risks to help your team win. On top of that, apart from IJN DDs, all other lines should and need to be using their guns. From smoke/cover mostly but that does make you a target. So again, you will take damage.

You take PM (1) (because 3 torp launchers, otherwise PT is better), LS (2), AR (2), SE (3), TAE (3), CE (4), RPF (4) = 19 points.

The point isn't for a BB to not be able to do anything. And it's not about rushing a BB. It's about taking massive AP salvos from 12km+ even if only a limited number of shells hit. Now as far as the one salvo thing, that is totally wrong. A BB will have at least 2-3 salvos. At 6 km, even if all AP rounds would overpen, and say only 50% of them land (or 66% of them in the case of a yamato) that's 6 x 1.3k = roughly 8-9k. Then, if the BB would load HE and fire, again assuming that only around 50% of shells hit, that's another roughly 11-12k. Which means that from only 2 salvos, that the DD can't dodge, the BB has done around 20k dmg to the DD. That's enough to kill most Tier 10 DDs that aren't using survival expert. And again, this is assuming that someone is utterly unable to aim, because honestly, at 6km or less, you should be able to land more than 50% of your shells on a DD. Also this doesn't take into account secondaries which actually do quite a bit of chip damage as well. Or a lot in the case of the GK. And it also assumes that the BB is solo because otherwise, yeah... And it assumes that a BB will have just fired his guns right before the DD comes into view. Because if those rifles are loaded then it has 3 shots at the very least. It takes longer than 1 min for a DD to cover the distance needed to ensure all torpedoes land. I am stacking all the odds in favor of the BB and it's still able to dispatch a DD that tries to rush it. And this is before we even take into consideration that, for example, a Z52 doesn't do enough torpedo damage even if it lands all its torpedoes to kill a GK or a Yamato and will barely kill a Montana if no more than 5 torpedoes hit the belt. Similar situation for a Grozo, but less extreme. And this is a class that is supposed to be countered by the DD. Tell me when's the last time you saw a high tier DD rushing a BB?

Actually Shima should be using RPF instead. You need to know where enemy DDs are.

Nope, you are 100% wrong. Don't spread misinformation please. If you are unsure of something ask instead of stating it as fact. Sub_Octavian in fact said that it is an issue that they are actively working on changing. In fact it's one of the main priorities right now. Normal penetrations from BBs should not happen with the frightening frequency they do now.

I don't think anyone contends that in a 1v1 BBs counter DDs. Although you could argue that, once you know there is a DD close by, and in a 1v1 you should know, it will take a long time for a DD to whittle down a BB with single torpedo hits. This is all assuming it's not a german BB. Also, 1v1, as a DD, if you just want to run away and not engage, nothing really counters you. The way BBs counter DDs is by WTFBLAP-ing them when they do get spotted. In that sense BBs are a hard counter in the same way they hard counter cruisers. The fact that something can shave off 50%+ of your health when you get spotted (even briefly) is terrifying. Which is the whole point, it's simply untenable atm to get spotted or fight for a cap. There are virtually no knife fights anymore. When two DDs detect each other on a cap, it's a dice roll as to who has the luckiest BBs.

I think by that point both of us had been battered by HE so our AA was distinctly lackluster. Otherwise a Missouri and an Akizuki should pretty much be a no-go zone for a t8 carrier. At any rate, I felt like I had contributed a lot by that point so I wasn't salty about bomb-boy taking the easy kill on me there. I met @I_AM_LULU_SNAIL - he carried like an absolute boss while I was mostly screwing around with a Bismark that couldn't aim

And again, this is why better explanations are needed for this game. I totally get how/why OP got confused.

Frustrating match that. I couldn't believe 4 of our ships went through A. Also that Moskva lit me up with radar like 3 times... and for some reason my BBs weren't able to kill it. It was stationary broadside for like 3 mins - didn't die.

Brace for the army of negativity that will surely come riding in because OP dares enjoy the game. It's actually super nice reading some non-toxic stuff. We've been enjoying ourselves quite a lot as well.

Well not a lot of what you said is particularly controversial. These are issues that have been discussed (in one form or another) for ages. I think it's just that you've played enough games to have a good grasp of the situation so they are dawning on you now. For example I made this thread in February and a lot of the issues you're describing were mentioned there as well. It's a long thread but a reasonably interesting read with some people being on one side of the argument and then, once sufficient proof was provided, they changed their minds. It also got multiple responses from WG. I am linking my own thread but that's just one example. Your points are solid, the issues are there - most disagreements are around the extent to which these problems affect DDs and potential solutions.

It was more fun from a DD perspective but I totally see why getting spammed by an invisible ship was very frustrating for the other classes. Yes, it was great for DDs but simply horrible for anything else. That system needed to go. BBs with radar are an issue but they can't be eliminated quickly enough. Right now a cruiser can radar you either from behind islands and stay safe or from the open at which point they are in extreme danger of being deleted. Therefore BBs with radar would make for better radar ships than cruisers. I don't think that's desirable as it shafts both cruisers and DDs. Also, radar cannot be avoided if the ships have near the same detection as their radar. If you're sailing in a direction and a DM appears in front of you and you don't have islands to duck behind, you are dead. You simply cannot turn fast enough to avoid it. A Chapayev is even worse as its radar range is longer than its detection range.. But yeah, when you're in a match with a Missouri, a DM, a Baltimore and like a Moskva or Chapayev then it will mostly be a terrible game where you can get killed very very quickly as a DD. I've had multiple 30k damage matches like that and there was nothing I could do to mitigate it. So I think your point about MM taking radar into account is spot on though. I think that, in the future, we might have to have a discussion about whether or not a limit on the number of radar ships is warranted as well but that's for another day. I think my biggest gripe with DD game play at the moment is the fact that it's the only class that gets punished for doing its job. Even flawless game-play will get punished. You make sure all enemy BBs are at 14KMs from the cap, you go into the cap, get spotted by the enemy DD for a second - random BB salvo takes 50% or more off you. You sail around trying to scout, you run into a DM that you can't avoid and it has a 1min radar - you will be in port before there's a chance for your life to flash before your eyes. You cap and then you try to move to the next cap but the enemy CV decides that you've lived long enough and cross-torps you. Nothing you can do about that unless you're a Gearing or Grozo and even then it's not guaranteed you will survive a triangle drop. These aren't situations where you were out of position or not doing your job. And you can't counter them either. Most other ships have to be out of position or to have made some mistake to be punished like that. And on top of it, you get punished harder in DDs than any of the other classes as well. So not only do you get punished for no reason but when you do get punished it usually results with a trip back to port.

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this - it's great to have holistic discussions that cover all the minutiae of DD gameplay. I agree with a considerable number of the problems outlined in the OP but I am not sure about the solutions. 1) and 4) Concealment and stealth firing & Damage from BBs. I think your solution is a bit too complicated and not very intuitive. I don't think any change needs to happen here. I think the issue is BB AP at the moment - it's not about a DD being spotted but rather not being able to survive the 20s it takes to stealth back up after firing. I also don't see BB HE as an issue (apart from RN HE but that's an issue for everyone currently). The way I see it is, if a BB is lobbing HE then at least it won't be deleting any cruisers. And the thing is that, apart from RNBBs, cruisers will out-dps BBs when firing HE. Basically if they are firing HE at me, then they aren't firing AP at my cruisers/BBs, which is fine by me. 2) Radar and Hydro. I am on the fence about these. On one hand, yes there is a lot of radar at high tiers. But on the other hand, if I am not countered by radar then I will run amok. Like, I understand the frustration but without radar, high tier DDs would absolutely kill any pushes or active play. So I am not sure I agree that something has to be done here. Radar ships shouldn't be punished by making them visible or anything of the sort. I guess that yes, stopping it go through islands would be more than enough. Also no more BBs with radar, please. 3) Torpedoes. Yeah, IJN DDs need a bit of help but not a lot. I guess a reduction of like 0.1 or 0.2km on their torpedo concealment would go a long way. But IJN DDs will always be at a disadvantage simply because of the new DD lines introduced. - all new lines are gun/hybrid DDs. This obviously puts IJN DDs at a disadvantage. The only solution is for IJN DDs to always have better concealment than their counterparts. So for example, the Shima should have the lowest detection at t10. 5) Maps Some of your analysis here is spot on, but some of it is somewhat contentious. I do agree with the overall sentiment which is that maps are not always balanced. I think that glaring inequalities should be sorted but some variation is good. It's impossible to achieve 100% equity anyway.

A khaba's detection means that it cannot push a smoke without being spotted most of the time. And if the Khaba is unlucky enough to run into a Z52, it's basically free first blood. The Khaba might be able to run away but not before losing most of its HP. Now as far as the Gearing goes, again, I don't know in what world a Khaba will just casually push a Gearing. You shouldn't be going for caps without support in any ship. The Gearing can just keep the Khaba spotted and then you bait it to fire and THEN you smoke when the Khaba is spotted by your team mates. I've done this literally hundreds of times. A kahab will eat a Gearing alive in a 1v1 but the Gearing is without a shadow of a doubt a better capping ship. I guarantee that the best Khaba players stay well away from caps as they are a deathzone for a relatively big ship that relies on its speed to stay alive. I get it, you got killed by a Khaba but you are making us these weird scenarios that simply aren't true. The Khaba is OK-ish at the moment. I don't think it needs any additional nerfs. It's a powerful t10, as it should be.

Well it's quite simple really. If you are unsure of your aim, even in BBs, using HE will probably net you more damage than poorly aimed AP. Especially if you snipe from 16+km. People are starting to get this. By "you" I mean someone.

I promise you that doesn't work. Any half decent team will roll over a Shima spam team with relative ease.

Also, what sort of weird universe is this where a Khaba is keeping a Gearing from capping? Like how is that even a thing?

Was I the only one that thought of this old meme when reading the title?

Classy as always UFR.

I don;t think you're too arrogant at all! Quite the opposite. I think you are too humble. Your stats are pretty damn impressive. That's why I said you should try. You clearly care about winning so there's a competitive beast in you somewhere If your clan mates have stats comparable to yours than you are virtually no different from the top players out there.

I disagree with you 100%. I think you should participate. You can just queue for a couple of matches. None of the clans you mentioned are unbeatable. The new ruleset also means that nobody will be 100% comfortable. I would urge everyone to go for clan wars.