_Teob_

Yes, because the main thing killing cruisers is, obviously, DDs. That's what cruisers have been complaining since this game's launch. That they keep taking massive damage from those damn OP DDs from like 14km. What can poor cruisers even do against these vile disgusting DDs that keep hitting their citadel?!? And even if we ignore the fact that cruisers are obviously DDs main focus, instead of BBs, what can we do about everything else? If only there was some way to spot DDs at range. Like a consumable that could be activated with the press of a button and enable you to spot everything at at least 8.5km or so... preferably it could go up to 11.7km for example. I would call it "badar". And if only there was some way to spot torpedoes. Like if there was some sort of consumable that you could activate with the press of a button and would enable you to spot torpedoes at greater ranges. I would call it "bydroacoustic bearch". Oh whatever shall we do, woe is us.

Cheers! Yeah I had opened this on my phone so I was missing columns. I see it now - you thought of everything. :)

You weren't blocked for your critique. You were blocked because you decided to paint the whole player base as "mentally challenged". You may be trying to frame it otherwise now but you are simply being disingenuous. Were they supposed to have that as a reply on their official twitter? Like "oh yeah, we endorse what this person said". How would that look? Think of it this way, there is a simple litmus test that you can apply in this case (and in most others) to decide whether or not what you want to say is appropriate: 1) Would you say that to someone in person? 2) Assume you work for a company. That company's twitter would post something like "We've been nominated for best place to work at bla bla awards - how would you describe our company to your friends?". Would you, as an employee reply with "hehe, derp, the company sucks, everyone working there is mentally challenged and my boss is a bellend (Hi John!)"? If the answer is "no" to any of those then you were in the wrong. Apart from that, the rest of your message is more than acceptable (and probably has more than just a hint of truth to it) and I doubt they would have blocked you.

I will concede the Shima side. That boat is getting pushed into irrelevance more and more. But are you serious about the Z52? The Z52 is and will remain the strongest all-purpose DD in the game. Good torpedoes, decent guns, decent fire chance, great damage on the AP (if target is broadside) - these things would make the Z52 a decent boat on their own. But on top of that it has Hydro which makes it the single best cap contester in the game. If a Z52 wants a cap, it will take that cap unless you bring bigger friends with radar. The Pan Asia DDs will be free xp pinatas for KM DDs if they run into each other.

This is one of the best resources around. I have two questions: 1) Do you have this on a google doc somewhere or something so I can see the whole thing? 2) How would you suggest going about if I'd like to also calculate these reaction time with vigilance and/or the acquisition module. Thanks for all your hard work on this. Super appreciated.

I seem to remember you won that match though

I killed the Z52 at least... I had a mediocre game on my side (about 100k - 120k done) as it was a BB campfest. I kept trying to get our BBs to push but they were having none of it. It's incredibly frustrating, as a DD, to go out of your way to eliminate the enemy DDs thinking your BBs will push after that to just watch them camp in the exact same spot. You seemed to have a great game on the other side though.

Right. Or, consider this, maybe there are more ways to go about it. I mean pulling stats is cute and all but it doesn't quite support your point unless everyone in the leaderboard has achieved those results with the exact same spec. So basically you are saying that your way is the only way/the best way to spec it. I am saying that there are several ways to spec it. Now as far as actual arguments, German AP is one of the worst performing shells as far as penetration at t10. You can check these values here For ease of use, I will include the relevant chart here: The orange line is Gearing AP pen, the blue line is Z52 AP pen. The Z46 has the same gun performance as the Z52. So relying on it alone might work but I prefer not to do that. And DE is actually a pretty great skill if you want to start fires and it is especially good with BFT. This reddit thread is a pretty good read. Basically split by number of fires per minute, DE + BFT is great (at the very least a 30% increase). This obviously doesn't take into account the fact that sometimes your window of opportunity is not really that large so starting two fires instead of one can mean the difference between killing something or not. The point is there really are more ways to perform well in these boats.

It's a relative buff. If it's a blanket nerf but it affects one line much less than others then in the end that line will be buffed in the "new" reality. It means that compared to now, DE BBs will manage to stay alive more and have a greater impact on the game. Basically the ratio of power between DE BBs and the other BBs will be changed in the former's favor once PADDs are in play. Buffs/nerfs can be direct or indirect. Like if you'd suddenly buff all cruisers, you would also nerf all BBs, for example.

Yes, precisely because they have Hydro. It might not be up constantly but it certainly is active a lot more than for all the other BBs that don't have it to begin with. How do you not see the logic in that? Let me put it another way, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. And it's not about German BBs being immune to torpedoes, it's about how much better they are at countering them compared to the other lines. And, let me tell you, from a DD perspective, I don't fire torpedoes at German BBs if there's a better target around. They are never my first choice because if they do have hydro up then I just wasted a torpedo salvo. and with how many of them there are, it's not like there's a lack of hydro these days.

I get that and I totally respect that. It's honestly difficult to accurately tell at this point to what extent cruisers will be affected. I mean, I think that these DDs will be relatively difficult to play because other DDs can just charge them down. This is the first line that even IJN DDs have a counter against - just go bow on and charge/torp them. I think that will limit the impact they will have on cruisers. Not to mention that cruisers like the DM are super scary to DDs anyway so nobody will get closer than 10km from them. BBs without hydro will probably be affected the most in my opinion. This is also an indirect buff to German BBs which they didn't need. That's why overall I dislike the DW torpedoes. I think they are not a good addition to the game and I wish things were different. They could have just been normal torpedoes with like a 1.2km detection instead of the normal 1.4 or something. Like something to make them better but not this gimmicky.

Dude you seem to have an issue with me. I don't think you're being objective at all. How can you say he didn't say that? Did you read the OP? That is literally what the OP says. That it will affect cruisers more than BBs because BBs won't be affected too much. That's what I disagreed with from my first post. Did you even read the OP or did you just jump right in to take a jab at me? There's very little point in me debating anything with you if you're going to deny reality. It's like talking to a flat-earther. What's the point? I am done. This is childish and counter-productive.

Wait what? I said that in the rare occurrence where torpedoes not aimed at cruisers would have been dodged before, they will hit more now. What I said is that I don't think torpedoes will be aimed more at cruisers because of how difficult it is to hit them in the first place.

I said that I agree that they are better than normal torpedoes against cruisers but I do think it's important to what extent. I never contested it's a cruiser nerf - I do contest to what extent, and I think that's important. A 2% nerf is totally different than a 10% nerf. I think the impact is important and I think it's incredibly silly to say otherwise. And like I keep saying, I think the impact on BBs will be greater than the impact on cruisers.That's all I've been saying. The only controversial thing that I said is that I don't think it's an issue that cruisers will be taking more torpedoes from PADDs because overall they tend to dodge all normal torpedoes and because I don't think cruisers will be the main target. The OP was saying that cruisers will be affected more than BBs. I disagreed with that.

We cannot debate a situation that happens very rarely. I mean I will happily concede that in the rare situations when that happens then yeah, you will probably eat more torpedoes. But this is a super rare situation. I hit torpedoes on things that I wasn't aiming at at most once or twice a week.

I mean, Black torpedoes run at a maximum of 48kn. Even if he launched them from 6-7 km they ran for like 30 seconds at the very least before they hit you. Also, if you knew he was there, why didn't you use hydro? If you didn't have hydro, why would you be able to totally counter that DD? Like what are his options in that case if you can dodge everything with ease? You are also misrepresenting my point. In a 1v1 then yeah, DW torpedoes will hit cruisers more. Otherwise, in normal situations, at 8-10 km, you will have to sail in a straight line for quite a while to be hit by them. But I can't really argue single situations nor am I saying that these torpedoes aren't good against cruisers - they are. I am not even saying they are a good idea. I think they are a silly gimmick that shouldn't have been in the game. What I am saying (again) is that I don't think people will start focusing cruisers with them simply due to how much cruisers change direction naturally. And even then, a cruiser will probably take 1 (where with normal torpedoes they would have dodged everything) and a BB will take 3 (where with normal torpedoes he would have taken 1). I am just speculating though on the numbers. So BBs will still be more affected.

I get his point, but that's not a very common occurrence. I mean I can tell you from an experienced DD perspective that you rarely hit torpedoes on things that you weren't aiming at. Let's not use a rare situation and treat is as though it happens all the time. So if we agree that's a rare situation then all we have left is deliberate torpedo hits. Those will still be rare because cruisers change direction a lot. And again, if the contention is that cruisers are able to dodge all torpedoes then there's something wrong. Cruisers will just be careful once they know a PADD is in the area. Similarly to how DDs have to be careful when a Z52 is in the area, for example. Or how a BB has to be careful when a DD is in the area. So again, not disputing that these torpedoes are better against cruisers than normal torpedoes. I am disputing the extent to which that will happen. I simply think that DDs won't be targeting cruisers a lot more. And I am still of the opinion that BBs will be affected much more by DW torpedoes.

I disagree. We can discuss how to play DDs but I doubt that this is the right place to do it. DW will help with salvos from any angle because, by definition more will hit because the reaction time is lower. I agree with that. But like I said, I am of the opinion that the DW torpedoes shouldn't affect cruisers too much unless a cruiser sails in a straight line for a long time. Also, I guess that people will just have to take hydro or spec into vigilance if they are getting hit by these all the time.

Yeah I don't know what he means there. I meant I think the first question refers to the forum. To be fair though, I am not sure.

Not all of them. But if you only land 1 of them because the BB did a quick pirouette then it's not really worth it. For example at t10, a Gearing torpedo will do around 8k dmg on a Yamato belt... I've had that happen to me in DDs. It happens. I never said I don't think cruisers will get hit more often. I am saying that I don't see an issue with that because I don't think it should happen much more often simply due to how much cruisers bob and weave

I think he is (partially) referring to the rank on the forum. @OP it's based on number of posts, I think.

Three points here. 1) A lot of BBs are perfectly capable of dodging most torpedoes even if they start turning after they have been spotted. I like to call this the BB ballerina issue. So DW torpedoes will be quite a big difference for BBs. 2) Who decided that cruisers should never be hit by torpedoes? Honestly, if you sail in a straight line long enough in a cruiser to actually be hit by torpedoes, then you made some very dubious choices. DD players don't target cruisers mostly because they know that a slight shift in direction will totally waste a torpedo salvo. 3) Since these torpedoes won't be able to hit DDs, and the main reason why DDs die is other DDs or radar, I think it's totally fine for DW torpedoes to be better against one of the common DD counters seeing as they are totally ineffective against the other.

I don't think DE is "hot garbage" at all. You actually want to be shooting HE quite a bit. You do damage by DOT stacking. So you use your torpedoes that do low damage to score a hit with flooding then you want to set fire in multiple places. If anything is angled then your AP does nothing. Even on DDs AP is useless against things that too thin so HE ends up being the better choice. Yes, you shoot AP when possible. But that's not always possible. I for one find SI to be overkill. I almost never run out of smoke/hydro. I agree that TAE is not needed though. Edit: that said, I believe the Z52 to be very versatile and I it has multiple setups. You can actually pick up TAE if you want more torps, SI is a valid choice as well. Some people even run a very gun focused spec. There are players that swear by Radio Location on it. I would be hard pressed to decide on a single optimal spec because it does depend a lot on how you want to play it.

I would not give up SE on any DD, no matter what. RL is good but most of the time, I can tell where enemy DDs will be anyway. They either go for objectives or for BBs. I find that I don't need it as much on the z52. I do run it on My Gearing and my Shima though because I might need to avoid people when playing those. I find that my setup just has really good synergy overall. I forgot to mention I also have PM as well. AR works really well with SE, BFT and DE are a match made in heaven, further augmented by the fast torpedo reload (I use the torpedo module) and PM helps with not having my torpedoes knocked out all the time and PT is amazing. By the way, don't discount DE even for fighting other DDs. I've killed a lot of people by setting 2 fires on them. It's quite a lot of damage. I just don't have space for PT (even though I do like it). Since changing to this spec my average damage and win rate have been very good. Btw, as a bit of a tip, which you may or may not know, by watching your PT when knifefighting other DDs, you can tell exactly when they fire their torpedoes because PT only triggers when targeted with the main battery guns. It's a neat little way to avoid torpedoes.

Yeah, if it's just one during those seconds before the start of the match or in the first moments then it doesn't bother me at all. They are not prohibiting communication, they are not spamming, they aren't doing anything bad as far as I am concerned.