_Teob_

Yeah I don't get why everyone is jumping on OP's back here. Like a singular case doesn't matter but I see ping and instant message spam all the time. Why do horns have a CD but that doesn't?

It depends on how you look at the stats. I think it's important to look at average performance overall, then (like you did) split it up to the top 5% and look at that average but I think it's also important to look at the best performing players of each ship compared to its peers as that gives you a good indication of potential. We can only try to draw as many conclusions as we can from looking at all the available data. Also this is obviously not a totally exact science. I just try to look at everything in context and rely on more than just my feelings on the matter.

Oh, I don't doubt for a second that it's a good ship nor am I saying that there's no chance it's OP. All I am saying is that we don't have that many matches in it yet. And the top performers in the YY or the Khaba have higher damage and better win rates than the top performers in the Harugumo. So from a pure potential point of view, I don't quite know where it stands yet. Basically all I am saying is that while its stats are quite good, it's still early days and it's actually less extreme than the YY was when it was launched. We just need to wait a bit and allow for an actual performance trend to form before we all agree it's OP. I will say this though, I totally agree with the Conqueror analogy.

No, I totally get it. Like I said, it sort of doesn't really sit well with me either. I also don't like this whole min/max approach that WG is taking. The Harugumo either murders everything in sight or is too sluggish to dodge anything. The YY is another example - the other torpedoes are kind of easy to dodge so we'll make this thing with torpedoes that are impossible to dodge. They have this weird all or nothing approach which is just difficult to deal with. It's like recently they have been balancing with a sledgehammer rather than a scalpel.

Sorry, I mean it's marginal compared to what we usually see. The YY for example had around 80k avg dmg for like the first month or so for example. I remember when 100k dmg matches would actually lower my rating. Basically I would expect a new ship like this to be well over 70k or so. But if you look at the current top performers in the ship, they are about on par with the YY and the Khaba. I mean as a measure of potential of the ship.

While my gut tells me I agree with you, that's not actually rational. Rationally speaking, based on actual numbers, the Harugumo is actually not doing too well. It does top the damage chart but only by a marginal amount and it's actually second in win rate already. Most people that have recently released ships tend to be at the higher end of the performance curve so new ships regularly overperform. The Harugumo however is dropping like a rock in performance and overall at the moment is on par with the Khabarovsk. Look, all I am saying is that we are all subjects to the perils of perception. We should be judging ships based on stats rather than our own gut feelings. We will obviously notice a ship when it does well, but we won't notice all the other times when it ate a torp and just blew up. So before we grab the pitchforks and torches, how about we give it a month or something? Especially as it's already performing worse than a DD that has been out for quite a while now (YY) and on par with the Khaba.

I have also seen AFK ships get sunk easily.

T8 ship gets killed by 2 T10 ships (that are its counter) and possibly a third unknown ship and it still takes a minute despite OP being solo. And it sounds like OP wasn't even on full health. I don't see an issue here. Think how long it would take 2 Montanas to kill a Chapayev at 9 km - I am pretty sure that poor t8 cruiser would disappear faster than a fart in a hurricane.

Totally agree with the inconsistent nature of the Shima. If you get a bit of space you can do quite well. But about that whole not dying part, I dunno man, I have so many Shima notches on my belt that at this point I don't even look at it as a fair kill. It's like a minor speed bump in the road most of the time and I always feel slightly guilty. To qualify what I mean, a Shima might get away from a Z52 due to its rather low dpm, and it might get lucky and smoke up before a Harugumo nukes it - once. Cause even that whole going from 100% to 30% thing happens only once and then you just go poof if you run into a Yugumo But the Grozo is lethal to a Shima. It's too fast and and its guns are too accurate so it can dictate the engagement. I suspect this is why the Shima has such an abysmal global win rate at the moment...

Totally true. But I'll tell you what, my dude. I have even typed multiple times in chat "*BB name here* stop firing I will smoke you" "dude, just stop firing ffs!!!" "I can keep you alive if you just stop firing and come toward me" I get to them, smoke them, keep making a long line of smoke in front of them like the good ganja DD that I am, they continue to sail all guns blazing being more obvious than that one dude that came as himself at the Halloween office party (Yes Dave very funny... this is why nobody eats lunch with you dude!) Meanwhile I am just sat there all confused watching USN BB PooAvalanche sail straight OUT of my smoke, continuing to burn like a tiki torch and finally succumbing to his inevitable barbecue interpretive dance of death - "stoopidz DD why u no help??" MFW

the tl;dr of that is: stop comparing apples to pears especially when those apples and pears have similar win rates which happen to be some of the best tier for tier

Pretty much on point. The fact that smoke is much less useful now for big ships has had an impact as well - it's more difficult for them to be aggressive now. Basically the conditions under which DDs operate have changed and DDs are naturally the first ones to adapt.

Oh they can do well. It's just that at over 5km or so, they struggle to hit a Grozo while the Grozo will pound them with each salvo easily up to like 10km or so. I think that a full gun spec Gearing/YY might be potentially scary but even then a Grozo can just smoke and heal up. A grozo with SE and SI has around 36k effective health. It's simply too much for either of those two DDs to deal with. And while a Gearing might be interested in closing the distance, a YY is mince meat if it does the same because of torpedoes. They are harder to deal with with your spec because they outspot you by 1.5 km (which is why I don't recommend that build) which means they have a chance to point their guns and potentially launch torpedoes before you spot them (even if you know their rough direction due to RL). With a full stealth spec you spot each other at virtually the same time. edit: by the way, I am not saying you should play my spec or whatever @Yaskaraxx - to each his own. Just stating that different specs will naturally be more adept in certain situations.

You can try to make this about me all you want but you are fundamentally dishonest. Pointing out when someone is creating a strawman out of things said or highlighting dishonesty is not at all rude. You can try to shift attention however you want. No skin off my back. (on a related note, pointing at kemosabe as something rude is par the course with you as the defition itself is "... is the term of endearment...") I am done with you.

You continue to be dishonest and to try to start conflicts. And you are misinterpreting/misunderstanding. For a DD to put himself at risk, I see it as a condition that his team is close enough to be able to support. So the quid pro quo is the DD putting his ship at risk in return for having his teammates close enough to provide support. So logically the other bigger ships need to be close enough first before the DD should even consider contesting a cap. The DD is already in front of the rest of the team from the start. Then it's a matter of how the team maneuvers that dictate how aggressive the DD can be.

You are taking that out of context and you know it full well. The context is, DDs don't owe you anything by default. They don't owe it to you to spot for you while you stand back and farm damage while they get chased around. Basically I am establishing that there is a quid pro quo at play rather than an inferred debt. Edit: Can I just also say that what you just tried to do here is so unbelievably dishonest @ForlornSailor that you really should be ashamed. It's genuinely really low to take a quote out of contest to make it seem like someone holds a position, they clearly said they don't numerous times. It just shows pure malice.

You are creating a strawman and getting all worked up about it. I can't see where anyone said that DDs don't owe anything but they are still owed support. I don't think anyone thinks that. What is being said is that DD players have been burned numerous times trying to spot/cap only to not receive any support and now, in the current meta, going into a cap until you know for sure it's safe and you have enough support to help deal with anything, is simply not advisable. I agree with you that for example spotting damage should count for something. Not as much as WoT but a bit more than it currently does. And capping should also be more rewarded since it's quite dangerous.

Well no, cause the point is for my team to fire at something else. There's an opportunity cost if your whole team wastes salvos on a dead target. Like I said, I would only do that if I was 100% sure I had him. Like if the target was sailing next to an island and I knew they couldn't turn. Or if they had just blown their DCP and I knew that a single torpedo would flood them to death. It's not being selfish, it's trying to optimize the damage that the team throws out, being fully aware of the fact that most people won't care and will try to farm dmg on the dead ship.

No, what I mean is I don't expect any support whatsoever. I never said I expect my team to help me. Quite the opposite. However, if I see someone performing well, then I will help them (regardless of what ship I or they are in) but what I mean is I don't assume I will get support nor do I expect it. What is the point in me spotting for a BB that cannot aim to save his life and ends the match on 50k dmg? What I meant was what I said: I rely on myself first and foremost and I expect nothing from my team. My target for each match when I play a t10 DD is 100k dmg. I think I can achieve close to that while also providing some spotting for my team. If I happen to be in a match with a good division or some good players then I adapt my play style accordingly. And I wasn't presenting my opinions as facts at all. I was just pointing out that we have conflicting views. Or rather that the emphasis is on "your" in that case, not on "view".

Been pink 5 times so far. 2 of those were me knowing that I would hit my team mate as well but I would do much more dmg to the enemy team 3 were totally my fault and were a result of me being a dumbass I am sure I will be pink again. But yeah overall: one's torpedoes are one's responsibility I don't think anything should be changed.

This is just that - your view. I disagree with it. I focus on doing damage and having an impact on the game. I find that putting my trust in team mates often results in defeat. I only rely on myself when I play solo. In fact, occasionally, if I have torpedoes going for a BB, I actually try to break line of sight so my team doesn't focus him and force him to change direction. Specifically because random people don't care that if they hold their fire for like 30 seconds then that target will be dead/severely crippled - they just want the damage. I've had situations with torpedoes that were CLEARLY going to hit a target and have BBs fire at it so instead of me doing 40k dmg, I do 5k with one torp. Hell, I've even had CV strikes come in on essentially dead targets. In an ideal world, yes, BBs would focus cruisers, DDs would spot and torp, CAs would support with radar, fire dmg and def aa. In our world, all new DD lines are gun lines, BBs are camping at the back farming other BBs, CAs are hiding behind islands lobbing shells at stuff while keeping a cap blocked with radar. It's a brave new world...

Properly specced, the Grozo will wipe the floor with either the Gearing or the YY. And yeah the Gearing is not great after the Fletcher. The main reason for that is that, while the Gearing does have improved gun fire power it has worse MM, and is slower and fatter. Also most DDs that the Gearing can deal with, the Fletcher can also deal with. And there aren't that many in that category. It's pretty much just the torpedo IJNs. Everything else is equal or better than the Gearing in a fight. But back to the topic at hand, yeah the Grozo is a phenomenal DD. Congratulations on getting yours. Also, the Grozo has one of the best Legendary Modules for any DD. One of the few actually worth having.

Woah there, kemosabe. You are looking at this whole situation the wrong way. If they top the score charts it means you and your fellow BB/CA did virtually nothing. They keep that behavior up because it's a safe and reliable way of impacting the game. I am sure you realize that this means that you're behind an island somewhere safe while they are doing all the spotting and getting nothing for it, right? Like if the whole enemy team disappears when they pop smoke it means that literally your whole team is hiding. (unless the whole enemy team magically decides to not fire their guns) You are no more entitled to do damage than they are. The only reason you are "missing out" on damage is because you are too far from the front lines to spot yourself. DDs do not owe you anything. Everyone is on DD hunting patrol duty. If you think you ever aren't and should be focusing on anything else, you are wrong. Priority targets: are DDs -> Radar cruisers -> No Radar cruisers -> everything else And you shouldn't be putting BBs and CAs in the same category here. If enemy DDs are farming you in your BB then that is perfect. That is your job. Any damage that you take is damage that your CAs/DDs didn't take. If enemy DDs are farming you in your CA then you have done something seriously wrong. If you get torpedoed a lot then equip hydro or even potentially take Radio Location until you start to learn how DDs play. You also have Vigilence. If a BB is in a situation to cap a point then it probably means that your DDs have actually done a fair deal of work. If a cap is safe enough for anyone to cap then anyone SHOULD cap it. Also if a BB gets radared, meh. If a DD gets radared it can mean he might contract a fatal case of enemy shell poisoning. No, see it's the other way around. DDs have gotten quite a few nerfs (some direct some indirect) so now it's no longer safe to contest caps or hunt down enemy DDs. This is especially true for the original DD lines. If a Shima runs into a Harugumo, z52 or Grozo then it will just straight up die. The Gearing also doesn't do well against those 3 and what's more it's a BB AP magnet. This gameplay you describe is about as selfish as that of any other class.

I do enjoy the 90% statistic pulled straight out of thin air though. Perfect 5/7 post, my dude.

What would actually happen is: "DD come heal or I shoot you... COME HEAL NOW NOOB DD!!!11"