HaachamaShipping

37.5 < 38, so no. And yes. Hindenburg is basically a can opener. Similar other ships are Venezia, Goliath and Azuma/Yoshino. Other supercruisers technically qualify, but either have worse dpm or worse accuracy or both. IJN supercruiser really only gets listed because Yoshino at least has cruiser levels of HE dpm. Only Goliath level, but still, all others are worse, except PR, which only is inaccurate. Of all these, Venezia has the highest dpm, but it's SAP, Hindenburg is second, rest is bottom of cruiser dpm, only beaten by aforementioned supercruisers.

Hindenburg armour: This means even if you are lazy and don't consider the angling, you have 180-190 mm of armour inbetween the outside and the citadel. Obviously given part of it is angled, it'll effectively be more. This is most effective at medium ranges, at long ranges plunging fire from BBs will just ignore it, while at close ranges 190 mm for T10 isn't much and the more effective part is the possibility of shells just missing the citadel given it sits low in the water and if you don't aim down enough you shoot over it. Nevsky meanwhile: Two straight plates, combined 180 mm. Doesn't hold off any heavy cruiser of T10 beyond maybe 12 km from citadelling you. And not too hard to do given how far it goes above the waterline. And Hindenburg is not "maybe/kinda more effective against BBs", it is more effective. If we go over the different lines: Yamato: Hindenburg can pen the entire 32 and 50 mm section of the ship. Nevsky without IFHE has to farm superstructure. With IFHE Nevsky can also farm the extremities, as the central part of the deck is a no-go and fire chance will drop drastically. Montana: Entire middle part is 38 mm. No issue for Hindenburg, while Nevsky again can either do no damage except superstructure and fires or drop fire chance drastically just to pen the very ends of the ship, shattering on mid section. GK: Entire ship is fair game for Hindenburg, even with IFHE, Nevsky mostly can go farm superstructure and fires only. Repu: Nevsky with IFHE can farm the entire ship, but will have poor fire chance. Hinden can just go to town. Conqueror: Same. Caveat that fires on a Conqueror is obviously a laughable way of trying to kill it. Thunderer/Bourgogne: Not much different. Kremlin: Hindenburg base can pen bow and stern, Nevsky base cannot even do that. Nevsky with IFHE can do what Hindenburg can without. Hindenburg with IFHE (which I don't recommend) can pen the entire Kremlin. Both will likely have to resort to fires, where base both are same, but if Nevsky took IFHE, it is notably worse. So, as long as the Nevsky has no IFHE, Hinden will just straight up do more damage on every BB, while setting as many fires. With IFHE on Nevsky, the Nevsky will do about as much damage on most BBs, but not set as many fires anymore and still be worse against GK, Yamato and Montana. Similarly, Hindenburg vs Stalingrad, Petro, Nevsky, PR can also farm those everywhere, Nevsky is restricted to the bow/stern and superstructure. Against DDs and cruisers, Nevsky has only slightly more dpm than Hindenburg either, so for killing those, the main advantage really only is the radar. Not saying Nevsky is bad, but Hindenburg is not a bad ship and the more 50 mm cruisers arrive, the more it matters. The only thing that did hurt Hinden is Venezia that has the pen and the dpm, but can ricochet, has no hydro and harrassment torps.

And what would the target ship ever get out of it?

Terrain abuse and strike people who literally cannot angle without getting screwed even harder. Mogami kiting some NC? Well, it can go take 15k from you or it can take a devstrike from the BB. Cleveland camping some island? Well, either it gets moving and stops camping or it takes damage. If it doesn't see you through the island, more the latter... Sure, it isn't absolutely foolproof, but also not unworkable. Just means you get to join the RN CVs as second-rate yet still fundamentally OP trash.

Hinden and Nevsky both have 180 mm above their cit, just Nevsky in two plates that are paralel, the Hinden in 3, with one being angled turtleback. Effectively, Hinden has better citadel protection.

It is tankier than Zao, Henri, Des Moines, Worcester, Minotaur, Smolensk, Colbert in pretty much every way, while compared to Yoshino, Goliath and Venezia it is on roughly equal footing overall, though with some advantages and disadvantages. Compared to Moskva, Stalingrad and Nevsky, the Hindenburg is less tanky when angled, but will be tankier broadside, compared to Petropavlovsk, Hindenburg is only tankier when concerning 38 cm AP or BB caliber AP on broadside. Overall, this positions Hindenburg as one of the tankier T10 cruisers, yes. It is tankier when angled and only against things that don't pen 50 mm. Also, Hindenburg has better citadel protection for the silly folk. Because while Petro will crap on Hindenburg when broadside more than Hindenburg on Petro, even non-Petro craps on Nevsky broadside harder than they do on Hinden. Your comparison seems to be with Nevsky here, not with Petro, but let's look at Nevsky: -Nevsky is faster, Hinden turns tighter. Typical Russian vs German stuff. -Nevsky has 1.2 km better stock range, Hindenburg can get a spotter plane. As even Hinden has sufficient range, having more range than Nevsky on a consumable with some extra utility thrown in is not a bad deal. -Nevsky has better midships plating, worse citadel protection and one less repair party. hp pool is similar. Hindenburg has better extremities plating, no icebreaker, but also far less issues when a BB lobs shells over the icebreaker and citadels you anyway, as Hindenburg has far less bow area. -Nevsky has only barely better HE dpm and much worse AP dpm. Even without IFHE, Nevsky only about matches Hindenburg's fire setting capabilities, with IFHE it'd be in the dumps. HE pen of Hinden is far better too. -Nevsky has 8 km torps, Hindenburg has more torps. Neither of them will be able to use them outside brawls. -Hindenburg has a better hydro, Nevsky gets radar. And that is the Nevsky. In a straight up fight, Nevsky is the only Russian T10 cruiser that can try beat a Hindenburg in a 1v1. None of the others can and Nevsky isn't a set game. Nevsky only can try because the Nevsky and Hinden pen each other with similar HE dpm and similar hp pool, leaving much to RNG. Moskva has the hp pool and decent dpm, but Hinden can brawl it down and if it gets the side, Moskva's toast. Stalingrad and Petro just lack the HE dpm and are solely reliant on Hindenburg messing up and giving enough side to allow AP hits. Smolensk 1v1 is just utter trash. And outside 1v1s, Nevsky has a different role than Hinden. Nevsky has an easier time countering DDs and some cruisers, while against BBs, Nevsky only has the tankiness, Hinden has the reliable damage output, because Hindenburg can farm pretty much most BBs down short of Kremlin with direct damage and decent fire setting. Nevsky has to either get IFHE to not rely on fires against angled Conkeks and Repus even, while getting IFHE would mean something like GK, Kremlin and Yamato can laugh at Nevsky HE that still does not pen, yet doesn't set many fires either. Nevsky can go try fire AP at the sides of these targets, but while pen is better, for the most part it is not massively better to the point where the Nevsky can pen and Hinden can't on a BB. Most upper belts are fair game to both, main belt is a no-go for either. And as said before, Hinden AP dpm is way above Nevsky. Hindenburg is versatile, because it is a heavy cruiser with reliable HE, good ballistics and good dpm on that HE, allowing Hinden to farm down most ships in the game, with only DM/Salem beating it among heavy cruisers, both having worse ballistics and pen though. Nevsky meanwhile is the opposite, it's actually a light cruiser with the biggest tankiness, but the absolute worst dpm of any T10 light cruiser and the guns it has have decent AP, but in terms of HE performance, this thing is simply crap. It basically is a heavy cruiser with heavy cruiser-grade dpm and ballistics, but not heavy cruiser HE pen. Hindenburg excels in reliability, having good dpm it can throw at anything and some insane burst to complement it if allowed to. Hindenburg will run into less situations where it can do very little, while Russians are more specialised and ships like Stalingrad and Petro, to a lesser degree Nevsky running into serious trouble if they ever are up against ships that counter them hard when played well (which at T10 btw for Stalin and Petro would be Hindenburg, Yoshino, PR, Goliath, Venezia, Conqueror and Thunderer, for Nevsky more the last four). They are strong in their niches though, while Hindenburg just has no real niche, except being a more universalist ship. Zao actually is the ship I'd consider most left behind by the past year, given that Russian BBs and Russian cruisers provided targets Zao cannot easily deal with, Venezia powercrept the niche Zao had for that reason and the concealment gets absolutely neutered in any CV game with a competent CV. Nerfs to ships like henri and end of Henri meta also took away from Zao which often could counter Henri, but cannot counter newer designs anywhere near as effectively.

I mean, you can look at it like that or you look at it the way that Hindenburg can mitigate most damage Petro can do to it, what can Petro do to avoid eating the Hinden's HE dpm? And saying Hindenburg is not tanky, cause it dies when broadside is just a friggin joke. Something like Moskva or Stalingrad, well-known for tankiness basically disintegrate when showing broadside, much faster than a Hindenburg does. Tankiness is more than just "not dying when pulling the most terrible moves". Hindenburg when it came out was insanely tanky, because no other cruiser had as much armour + hp. That changed over time. Now it still is tankier when angled than a good few T10 cruisers, due to hp pool and extra repair party, but its specialty shifted to versatility and reliable HE dpm. It's basically the counter to Petro and if you can't see that, then, well...

Oh boy, imagine if one had a brain and angled...

I'm used to that, getting notifications at work that Haachama's now streaming, so wouldn't be new.

Not like we got a Russian T8 CL with longer lasting stealth radar and 12 railguns with better dpm and better accuracy for literal years now.

Montana underwent some pretty significant changes during her career within WoWS, with recently improved repair or the lowered citadel years ago. So, while it'll not get different guns, I'd not rule out that it'll ever be changed again in some way. For now though, ship is fine.

IJN DDs have among the best air detection values and either long range torps, ability to do meaningful damage from range from smoke or both. Frankly, by the time IJN DDs are truely unplayable, DDs overall are unplayable with current mechanics. Because even if CVs become oppressive enough that you never can move too far forward, Shima can just load 20 km torps and spam those. What will Daring, Z-52 or Grozovoi do? Not saying CVs aren't painful, but not really more than for other DDs.

Don't get too hung up on radar. Your line has radar, but very short radar. If you never played with radar before, it is easy to get hung up on the radar and put your ship into situations where it should not be.

And which DD would actually beat Shchors when played like that? Shchors is a light cruiser. The only ones I could envision killing Shchors from smoke in any appreciable amount of time are Akizuki, Kitakaze and Friesland.

And Yukikaze/Montpelier would be bundled with their respective premium ships.

I'd argue that Loyang guns are okish, as long as Loyang runs into enemies with a plan to not get shot, typically through abuse hydro-smoke (but other means exist), because with only 4 guns and the second worst hp pool, the ship isn't going to do stellar in an open gunfight. The only ship with less hp, Harekaze can gun it down with the 10 cm guns, Z-23 and Ognevoi have way more hp to just outlast it even if they don't have the dpm, Siliwangi should too and counters the hydro. Other hybrids like Benson, Lightning, Cossack and Hsienyang either offer same dpm and more hp or more dpm and more hp. Dedicated gunboats like Kidd, Akizuki and Kiev obviously just shred a Loyang out in the open. Also a reason why I'd rather use the long range torps, because Loyang isn't really good for yolorushing people and just being a cap contester is a bit of a one-trick pony and easily shut down (radar cruiser!).

Loyang has decent enough gunpower, but is not a gunboat. Compared to Z-35, it'll likely lose most fights in the open, due to disparity in hp pool and compared to Benson dpm also isn't stellar. But Loyang can pull the hydro gimmick far better and still is a decent torp boat. Z-35 meanwhile has better gunning potential, but worse smoke, worse hydro, worse conceal and while it guns better than Loyang, it still cannot win open fights against competent gunboat DDs and gets outspotted by those that are not (or even both, when one looks at the likes of Cossack. Thus, Z-35 is still reliant on hydro-smoke combo to beat these and Loyang is just better at that. Obviously Z-35 utterly fails as a torp boat too.

Noone expects the 8 km Russian torps, in my experience.

Would say wait till August.

I mean, most of them are solid ships, but sure. Incinerators and cruiser bullies. Good ship to angle and bully the Riga spam with.

And then you compare to ships like Roon, Buffalo, Donskoi, Ibuki, Saint-Louis, Seattle and Neptune and you'll realise Brindisi is third of the tech tree CA/CLs in WR, only beaten by Drake and Riga (which is still a new ship). Absolutely weak. Short of Drake, only supercruisers at T9 rock 50+ % WR. Also makes you wonder about that "terrible" RN CA line.

lolwut?

So people don't cheese the system. Else, you can div your T8 ship with T7 and never see T10s. T5s diving with t4 would be guaranteed top tier.

After the nerf to ricochet angles, the issues inherent to Venezia are inherent to the entire line though. Because the only significant step from Brindisi to Venezia apart from the extra turret is the spaced armour, which is frustrating, but not some game-breaking feature. Same can be found on ships like Yoshino or Drake and neither is broken. The main issue now is that Venezia can deliver high alpha strikes at range without drop-off in pen and dodge well with lolsmoke, but that the line lready has at lower tiers.

Uhm, no. Hindenburg has 3 guns more and same reload as Roon, Goliath has 3 guns more than Drake and reload stays the same. DM has 3 less guns but insane improvement in reload over Buffalo. And for most of them it's a 33% dpm increase (DM is 63%!), Venezia pre-nerf was a modest 25%.