HaachamaShipping

You know what is one critical flaw with the idea of DD never getting spotted? A good DD player can mask their movements maybe at the start of the battle, but at some point they will have to launch torps, shoot guns, smoke up and/or cap and any of these actions can tell an attentive CV player the rough location of where the DD is. A skilled CV player can then search the rough area where the DD has to be given the activity that was observed and once spotted, even briefly, can go and make an attack based on where they expect the DD to go until they turned around. Obviously you can also pop a fighter just shortly in front of the DD to observe the bugger a bit longer and give more of an idea of what maneuvers they make. Obviously, all of this requires skill. Obviously that means that the skill gap is going to widen. It will be easier to avoid getting wrecked by average CV.

What a lie. Bet you still can drop this thing in a SC or Santa container afterwards instead of actually good ships.

Issue is, on USN classes, they are referred to according to registry, the way official documents did. With something like the Regia Marina you got no such thing, so the naming is up for debate. So no, it's the New York-class and Colorado-class, unless one wants to be utterly contrarian for the heck of it.

You notice how none of these list penetration and the only stats that may give a hint at penetration capabilities, which are muzzle velocity and Krupp have the Bayern, Warspite and Mutsu rank pretty low? As you can see, all are in the same league of underwhelming pen, as they all fire WWI grade ammunition. Fuso surpasses them, because small caliber guns at T6 typically get WWII grade ammunition to make it an actual trade-off between big gun or high pen at the tier. The exception is West Virginia, which gets an actual large caliber high pen gun and as can be seen actually is significantly above the rest. PEF is the other extreme of the most pathetic penetration on a non-overmatching gun caliber. For practical considerations though, the penetration differences basically make no difference among the three, against the thick belt of the better protected BBs, you'll struggle to do anything at 15 km unless they are perfectly broadside, cruisers are obviously an utter non-issue. WV meanwhile can do a number on most BBs it meets, even T8s. Also matters because Bayern itself has a 350 mm main belt, with an additional turtleback behind it, while the Mutsu for example has significantly less armour, Warspite is inbetween. At 15 km, Warspite might go through Bayern's belt, Mutsu certainly would not, unless Bayern really is just perfectly broadside. And no, well-played Bayern does not have more issues with Dunkerque, given Dunkerque can do pretty little to an angled Bayern except try to either shoot the superstructure or shoot HE. Bayern has lots of ship to overmatch on Dunk and in a brawl can even citpen the Dunk, while Dunk cannot do so in return. any other advantage also mostly belongs to Bayern in a straight up fight, be it secondaries or landing hits (where Dunk has worse base dispersion and worse sigma value).

Actually, in a straight up fight, the only BB I'd consider to have any noticeable advantage of these is Warspite and the entire rest is a tossup, Dunkerque certainly has issues dealing with a well-played Bayern. Bayern mostly has to mind its angling, most of its hull is not overmatchable unlike others. A Bayern that doesn't give the Dunkerque or WV the flat surfaces for shells to bite is very tough, while both of these opponents get overmatched almost everywhere, even by the otherwise mediocre Bayern guns. Warspite can try leverage its accuracy advantage, but at short range has similar issues to the other two. Warspite also has similar poor pen to Bayern. Lastly, the Mutsu has neither improved armour, no better pen, nor better accuracy. Mutsu has torps and that's the entire advantage it has vs Bayern. You underestimate Bayern armour when properly angled. Also, Bayern can dish it back, given WV isn't very sturdy. And before you ask, I did.

The rockets overall are good, but not even the best at the tier. They do get the job done though and they are insanely spammable, given how many Enterprise starts with and how fast they restore. Torps are decent, nothing bad about them. There's worse torps (also, there's Indomitable with no torps). AP bombers are absolutely bonkers, with 6 bombs per drop that do lower alpha, but are consistent in how much they usually do at least and with a high potential alpha per strike. Both of these plane types are not as spammable as the rocket fighter, but still have good restoration times. This leads to a CV that can gank any ship pretty hard and fast, except maybe USN BBs, with the second-highest amount of potential planes at T8 after Kaga. If you have an empty hangar after 10 minutes with Enterprise, then that's the player having no idea how to avoid plane losses. Ontop, Enterprise gets its funny 10 fighter spawnable, which against those silly enough to fly into it is absolutely devastating and in a CV vs CV duel would certainly give Enterprise the upper hand. All carriers are broken. Just some are more so. Enterprise is on a level beyond the others, even Shokaku.

A citadel from Weser AP is 7k, unless the target has less hp than that remaining. If you can't citadel ships, that is on you. And then you do everything right, don't overextent, don't just give your position away needlessly, use p and o properly and you still get crapped on, with maybe a dozen plane kills to show for it. Playing DD basically is a gamble, as the presence of a good CV on the enemy team reduces your ability to actually be useful and win a battle dramatically and even bad CVs might be a huge pain if they just go out of their way to spot. And then we get into Enterprise being broken for more reasons than just its rocket fighter. There's a reason people here ask for Enterprise removal.

It's almost as if Weser also had a second plane type able to produce citadels with way lower alpha, not just the 7k AP bombs...

"Here comes the aeroplane!"

There exist a whole two ships in the game with over 100k hp, unless you spec into SE on a BB. All are on T10. T10 AP bombers all drop more than one bomb. And if you get dropped by a Haku or MvR, that's up to 3 cits, dealing over 20k in large irreperable damage. Meanwhile a Weser hitting a single cit on a same tier BB is more than 10% of the hp pool, hitting two basically takes out a quarter of most same tier BB's hp pool.

Most forgettable ship to appear on the enemy team lineup. Don't get too close and you are fine. Most get themselves killed anyway or play passive to the point you actually never notice they were there. Good players in the ship might be more noticeable, but they'd be a much bigger issue in pretty much any other T8 BB. Odin's really the only ship that I'd never go "Oh crap, it's an Odin" about, given that, frankly, regardless of what class of ship or tier I play, the Odin just never is a top threat. Even in some T6 cruiser, Odin is the only T8 BB that would allow my ship to potentially bounce shells even if they don't hit the very main belt (except Aoba's 48 mm deck that bounces every AP shell in the game). Pensacola can bounce it off the entirety of its ship. As a T6 BB Odin also is the biggest joke of a T8, given that, yes, if it torps me I got issues. If an NC shoots me from 14 km away though, I got issues too and that's far easier to accomplish for the NC and far less avoidable. As a DD, Odin's a non-issue. Avoid being in hydro range and you are fine, given the secs are poor and the main guns have no HE damage. Ship also reacts poorly to torps. Managed to torp this thing with a Kiev from 6 km, took a total of like 2.5k in secondary hits, despite being at the Odin's side, but with that low gun count and accuracy... As a CV, Odin's just the best bang for the buck for AP bombers and torps. And let's not get into what happens if you uptier Odin and it gets to meet Tier 10 torps, big gun BB or just about any cruiser with a brain. As a consequence, Odin basically also is one of the poorest BBs when it comes to BB duties. Area control is just not a thing when you have compromised staying power and a reliably counterable gun threat. An NC sitting somewhere is a threat to most ships within range that need to mind its presence. Odin? Angle and you are fine. If it gets too pesky, shoot it a bit so it runs off, because it likely has no fire prevention (gotta get that sweet 400 m window between min conceal and max secondary range). Obviously some ships like SAP cruiser and 50+ mm pen cruiser can just chunk the Odin for not insignificant parts of its hp pool. And whoever says the Odin is just some T8 supercruiser, supercruisers typically excel because they are in cruiser slots and thus replace your typical dpm ship with something that has more staying power and at times even guns that allow for zoning. But there's a vast difference in trying to angle vs Stalingrad and Alaska or trying to angle vs Odin. Ships like Yoshino and Azuma have actual HE dpm befitting a cruiser, ships like Ägir at least are decently accurate. Odin is none of that. As a cruiser, if the enemy shows no side, you are a Prinz Eugen without the accuracy.

You missed one iteration of "carriers", so can't even commend you on effort. Are you even putting in any thought before posting? Hardly any of them apply for DDs when combatting CVs. WASD hack? Sure, works just as well against rockets that have maybe 1-2 seconds between launch and arrival as it works with torps that take the better part of a minute. HE bombs allow fine adjustment till the very end and if RNG doesn't deny hits, you get nuked. Radar? Hydro? Yeah, I wanna see you radar or hydro planes away. Team mates? If you are fine being a non-player for much of the game hiding right next to a ship with good AA in the hope CV will attack there last. Even then, if it finds you and wants you dead, you are likely going to die. CV? If enemy has no idea how to cheese a fighter, sure. If your CV gives you one, of course. And hiding in a smoke cloud means you are basically useless for a good bit, given that at the very best, you can try torp out of it, but firing your guns will give your position away.

Bayern is great, but Gneisenau is not a downgrade. Gneisenau just is different. Bayern is your typical BB, just with a ton of armour. Mediocre speed, mediocre guns (for T6), good concealment, decent AA (still will get you nuked by something like Weser), okish secondaries (really, secs at T6 and below are largely laughable). You play this thing like your typical BB and have success. Gneisenau is meanwhile just peak German BB of the tech tree line. The guns on a per gun basis are an upgrade with better penetration, traverse and reload. You get one less turret, but still two front, so whenever typically you had to struggle getting rear turrets on target without broadsiding, now you have to care less. 32 knots is highest in tier speed and even hard uptiered to T9 is still very good. Armour is an upgrade mostly in form of improved deck armour. Secondaries are a major upgrade as they can be 8 km and accurate. And torps are the ticket to win almost any 1v1 with a BB. Bayern is basically WWI Germany, well-rounded and prepared for a battle of attrition where it will only go down to overwhelming odds. Gneisenau is basically WWII Germany, there to blitz in with utmost aggression and run others down before they realise what happened. May lead to overextension and miserable death though, if you bite off too much. I'm perpetually conflicted whether German line peaks at Bayern or Gneisenau, given the former is just great, while the latter is the last German BB that really can dictate its own pace upon the enemy given its in-tier speed advantage.

Odin secs do crap all in damage if you don't show much broadside and you really don't want to show any broadside to a Yamato. Frankly, if up vs Yamato, I'd say, load HE and burn it down from distance or be able to ambush it at very close range where the guns can citpen and you can use torps, but try to avoid having to close the gap. Even with icebreaker, Yamato can get some heavy strike in on your upper bow and can kite Odin pretty well.

You asked why you'd need to respend on somethingyou sold. I gave you the answer. And you won't need help next time if you took the advice.

Maybe so next time you think twice before selling things you have no clue about how to get back?

It kinda is a waste of fire chance. It's why I actually use my Stalingrad/Moskva captain in them.

If that was the main issue...

It has a tendency to blow up more often than any other T8 cruiser except Albemarle.

Good review, though I'd like to disagree on something: I'd not consider Shikishima any better in randoms or competitive than the Yamato. Yes, rudder's better and AA is great, but on the other hand, Yamato with its 9 shells and access to LU is usually a good bit more consistent. And obviously beats Shikishima in dpm. Shikishima isn't bad, but for typical Yamato gameplay, I'd say Yamato still is the more solid choice. And I'd say, personally, if that was all, no, the ship wouldn't be worth 32k steel, not to me. Personally, what made me pay the hard-earned steel to get this ship is what you dismiss, the secondaries. Because I'll be brutally honest, I don't care whether the GK or Ohio are better secondary specialists, Shikishima gets a Harugumo per side and unlike Kii it gets range on these guns. While I would not go full IFHE secondary build, the 30 mm base pen and sheer dpm output makes these not too shabby. And if I pay that amount of steel for a ship that certainly is not going to be in a competitive lineup, but just be there for derping around in randoms, then it better be at least fun. Shikishima basically is meme Yamato to me. The guns with their low gun count but high punch are a meme. The gun sound is a meme, the secondaries are a meme, the Shikishima isn't a top of the line brawler, but secondaries help when getting blindsided or when up against stuff that can't just go through your citadel armour. Also, in general, short of the citadel weakness, the Yamato hull is tanky with its stupid deck and best torp belt in the game. So, yeah, people shouldn't feel discouraged to use the secondaries on Shikishima. Obviously it isn't the most optimal build ever, but if you just wanted the greatest performance, LU Yamato. And let's be honest, if you wanted the best out of GK or Ohio, you would go tank build there too. Ohio doesn't even really have the "armour scheme to match", given it just doesn't have as easy a cit as Yamato, but still not hard to wreck if shot in the side and its HE resistance actually is poorer than Yamato hull. It does have fast heal though. I doubt I'm the only one who ever wondered how cool it'd be to have secondary Yamato, yet it seems so frustrating to use, but now, Shikishima gives us some interesting benefits, with the best secondary dpm in the game and 30 mm penetration, meaning that if some regular T10 cruiser is in range, they will feel it. And it does set fires. Build I use, for those wondering. Yes, that's Auxiliary Armaments mod, as the secondaries can often die from getting shot at a lot. And as the main guns have already great protection and rarely get incapacitated, I went for Auxiliary Armaments Mod. Getting Manual Secondaries and AFT, together with secondary range mod makes the guns less consistent at range, but not by much and the skills cost you EM and CE. This isn't cheap and it has quite significant gameplay implications. But it's playable by not yoloing around and picking engagements well. I doubt I need to tell people with the steel to buy this ship how to play a ship that is basically Yamato with added secondaries, given all the usual things one minds in Yamato, the turret traverse and citadel weakpoints still apply, just now if you know you can mitigate thes two weaknesses, the ship at closer ranges is quite rewarding. Investing more, like IFHE might look appealing, but for one, brawling BBs is more risky than brawling cruisers, most BBs have better plating than 32 mm anyway and you don't want to overcommit. FP keeps you from melting too fast when going in, just a better pick imo. Obviously not everyone might find meme build fun, fun is a subjective quality. But if you ever wanted secondary IJN BB, especially Yamato, here you go, this is the ship.

Dead ships don't heal...

Likely getting citpenned by almost any BB it meets isn't helping keep the damage up.

I don't have Roon, given I decided not to spend on this iteration of the collab. Saw it on Flamu stream though.

For randoms, I just take DE, because fire mitigation isn't really a priority for a ship that has best in tier heals and isn't supposed to tank craptons of dpm. And RPF could be interesting, but I feel like the ship is just too slow to bother DD hunting.

The argument was a dedicated Kremlin counter. 60 mm of Kremlin deck means 59 mm of HE pen is not enough. Only cruisers that can pen that without IFHE are German supercruisers.