HaachamaShipping

Most of the time one won't notice a difference, as the minimum ricochet angle is the same, so the larger twilight zone means a more gradual shift. Generally, most often I reach to AP where I'd also use AP on other ships. More noticeable is the overmatch.

Pens anything not a Russian T9-10 BB deck and a bit of FdG/Pommern. Very reliable. Also gets 5° more tolerance before guaranteed ricochet, which you'll hardly ever notice.

Zao cannot HE pen most of Petropavlovsk, Goliath can. Maybe over time one can burn down the Petro, but in a Zao I feel it's mostly a waste of time. And there's just a certain appeal to taking out the "underwhelming free citadel estate" Goliath, going 1/4 speed angled in front of a "OP Russian bias AP monster" Petropavlovsk and crapping all over its deck with my WWI guns and listening to new ricochet sounds, because the fewest of them figure out that they have a 1 key and that AP isn't the solution to everything.

I think WG gave Albemarle the superheal because Edinburgh gets it at T8 and they didn't want to go like with BBs and DDs where the heal edge is only T9-10. I do agree though, it'd be a much smoother transition if they cut Albemarle's step, gave it a normal heal and that's it. Also, the only reason Albemarle is a glass cannon is game mechanics. Just like Edinburgh IRL wasn't a more fragile light cruiser than most other light cruisers.

Dunno, sometimes I just like watch things burn, and new Petro owners cry. Also, AL Drake was enough reason to grind the line to me...

Dunno why you consider Surrey so bad. Honestly, Surrey is, imo, after Drake the best ship in the line tier for tier, because for a T7, the utility is alright, the dpm is decent, the torps are good, the concealment is great, the citadel is actually quite small. The main issues are short range (extendable with spotter) and 30 knot speed. But Surrey basically is a better Devonshire and while unforgiving to positioning mistakes, it can duel other cruisers, even T8s and do a decent job. Honestly, not sure. I don't think other cruisers rake that much more in in terms of exp, except maybe Leander. Main thing I see is, you can get games where you get pretty poor rewards, because you mosly burned BBs. But there's also games where you weren't held off by some BB and could win cruiser duels or hit DDs a few times, even with the slow shells. But I really don't think people aren't playing the ships just because there are no rewards. Same as how T7 isn't flooded with Sims, just because it gives enhanced rewards. Main issue with Albemarle, imo, is that the superheal requires sacrifices. If Albemarle had Drake citadel, the thing could quickly be OP having a superheal where hardly anyone else gets a heal, or it'd require the ship to have almost no dpm. Maybe give Cheshire a reworked cit that doesn't include the step. But everytime you aren't up against BBs that overmatch you, Albemarle can be quite oppressive against its peers. Also, Drake doesn't necessarily need to win a dpm race, when it can just outlast opponents. Not to mention with 10.4 km concealment, a Drake can lay AP ambushes. The only shell trap cits in the entire line are Albemarle and to a lesser degree Goliath. Goliath notably eats less cits though and stuff like Drake is frankly ridiculously tanky for a T9 cruiser. Properly angled, Drake and Goliath are on a level of tanky comparable to supercruisers and can very much kite and tank.

While I don't think Goliath is a massive step up from the Drake, which tier for tier, imo is a better ship, I'd say the Goliath step is still less harsh than the Albemarle step. Mostly because unlike Albemarle the ship still has okish 30 mm side and 40 mm deck to tank at range, while even if things don't skip off the deck, as the cit isn't as wide as the ship, the turret blocks much of the area that can be hit. On Albemarle, cit is just as wide as the ship is.

Did you win or lose? And I do understand the frustration. But similar things could be said about some Aoba or such. The issue I see is that most people look at where the line goes and just give up. Like, they see the Goliath, think it's a ship that has no dpm, no range, giant citadel, no special consumables except heal, no speed, why play this over something fun and exciting like Petropavlovsk to farm cits, Venezia to zoom around and farm SAP alpha or good old Des Moines with good utility. And even if you'd get through Devonshire faster, why do it if you just get "lidl Conkek" at the end? Odin is like the best case scenario of a T8 BB for most of the line. Drake just laughs at it.

I have the feeling that apart from easy cits, noone has ever any expectations from Goliath.

I mean, you don't take an Albemarle, just like you shouldn't take a Charles Martel. The ship just does not fit the ranked meta. In a 12 v 12 random, you got usually more time to shine and you can make do with an unreliable citadel protection, in ranked where you want consistency and impact, an Albemarle that gets impact only as games draw out is not going to give you that and the only time it'll shine is if you run into some lineup of Odins. On the other hand, if this was T7 or T9 ranked, I could certainly see a place for Surrey or Drake, so even in such settings, the entire line certainly isn't the issue.

Match an Albemarle against any of the other ships listed and if it doesn't broadside, it should win without issue.

You remind me of the Yamato yesterday that complained about how the Mino, Colbert, Marceu trio was [censored diseases] for farming him down, when he actually mostly died to me in Goliath and all the others did is just raining a rainbow onto an already burning ship without penning much other than superstructure. Sorry, but a Kutuzov, Cleveland and Baltimore are quite a different thing from an Albemarle. As is any DD. At T9-10 it's even more different.

Imo, main issue is that the line is like old French cruisers. They burn things down, but feel not like they have much impact nor that they are incredibly flexible. Crappy angling gets punished and unlike British BB, you can't just sit at the map border and never risk your ship. This leads to a small player base of these ships that feel like they can make it work and who weirdly enough can still enjoy it, while others rather play other ships that are more exciting and the only fast-paced action isn't how your hp bar can jump all over the place due to citadel size and superheal.

Which of the ships are we talking about? Because there are quite the differences between them and one has to consider balancing for the tier.

Popularity isn't high, but performance seems to be ok. If WG addresses the ships, I'd guess only the way they addressed the French cruisers rebalancing it for some added gimmick to increase popularity, without making it straight up OP. Dunno what you consider lies though.

That's basically true for all Russian 180s in high tiers and one of the main things people seem to just overlook. Their HE is pretty questionable all things considered. Their AP is good, but if you angle well, these ships can be like a fish out of the water, kept afloat by their ability to still tank. Obviously, matched against any opponent that isn't hampered by their armour (1/4 pen ftw), they can be in very big trouble. And the new 220s aren't great either for HE. The best new HE ships are Ochakov and Alexander Nevsky and both have only 8 guns, leaving them with pretty underwhelming HE dpm for what is essentially a light cruiser. Funnily enough, Nevsky has the same 30 mm pen as the Ochakov, because 180s still go by 1/6 rule, not 1/5. Still, the base HE dpm is so poor (basically on a level with Chapayev, which for T10 isn't cutting it much), that I'd not go for IFHE and just work with the 17% fire chance. But if you get shot by some Nevsky, it's basically like getting shot by a Hindenburg without the pen, getting shot by a Petro is like being shot by a crappy Yoshino. Same accuracy, less range, less dpm, less fire chance. New Russian cruisers are scary AP ships, even Nevsky can citpen other cruisers at considerable range, but whoever complains about the HE dpm really should look at what is already around and realise that these are some of the poorest HE ships we got ever. Even from the perspective of ships with less armour, the Nevsky is decent against cruisers but can be outtraded at shorter ranges by ships like the Des Moines, Worcester and Goliath. And at range against something like Hinden it can still be a toss-up, because while the Nevsky has great ballistics, Hinden will hit your ship easily given how clumsy it handles. Against DDs, Nevsky is the genuine threat, Petro line with crap HE and 15s radar ranks pretty low on the list of threats. I fear a Venezia more than a Petro, because even without radar, if I ever get spotted, Venezia might nuke me, Petro on its own isn't great vs DDs, its radar is too short for great team utility and Petro doesn't encourage DD hunting, so these guys typically don't ambush DDs, rather they open up on someone else and you have an idea of where they are. Nevsky meanwhile doesn't have the tankiness to sit on a cap like Moskva, while its concealment and turning is too poor to play like a Des Mo or Worcester.

Against BB, your IFHE is worthless anyway. 25 mm doesn't go through 26 mm midships plating. And arguing about how shooting some BB for fires is going to get you blabbed when advocating prolonged gun duels with cruisers like Donskoi makes your claims just absolutely laughable. Frankly, I'll just put forward my recommendation to go with what @Bear__Necessities said, as it's really the sensible thing to do and is workable, not follow someone like you, BoW, who has a long history of throwing out the most ridiculous garbage in terms of gameplay and build advice, with nothing to back it up other than the tenacity with which you throw out these posts defending your garbage. I can only hope that few will ever take this crap at face value.

Imagine spending coal to run an upgrade for 2s more fire immunity instead of keeping your guns and torps from getting disabled more often as a cruiser.

No.

AK? What's an AK? Kuznetsov would be Mikhail Kuznetsov.

Scharnhorst guns also aren't good, but they have way better dpm over the overmatch guns on T7, except for the Nelson and Ashitaka. Odin is pretty much mediocre in dpm among guns that all beat it in overmatch. Scharnhorst additionally has a significant armour and speed advantage over many of its peers and some of the best secondaries of its tier. Being 30 knots at T7 is only surpassed by 2 others and rivalled by one other BB, being 30 knots at T8 is basically just normal. 2 knots better than the worst. Scharnhorst basically compensates over its peers with all the other characteristics and the guns get away with what they are. Obviously Scharnhorst was in a better position before 25 mm became common mid tier cruiser midsection. But it is pretty telling that for Scharnhorst, it is balanced around having 50% more guns with 6s reload advantage compared to Gneisenau, while Odin gets 12.5% more guns with 3s reload advantage compared to something like Bismarck, if we allow the rest to be of comparable value, the hp advantage seemingly making up for concealment and hydro. Only ships with worse HE dpm are Gascogne (barely), Bismarck and Tirpitz (who would've guessed) and the Borodino. An NC shooting HE is a more terifying opponent than Odin. Just, an Odin shooting HE at your angled T8 cruiser is desperate, an NC shooting HE at your angled T8 cruiser is an idiot.

In hopes that the guns defy game mechanics?

Alright, which guns of T8 BBs aren't way superior. As for secondaries... yeah no, I have been on the side of dishing out and on the receiving end, they are just crap. they have bad angles and bad damage output. While they may have pen, few BBs are honestly bothered by that kind of damage output, especially at an angle, while against cruisers and DDs, every other German and Massachusetts are way better. So far I have to find a single ship I play where I get into a match where I think "Oh crap, it's an Odin" and not "Thank god it's an Odin and not insert any other T8 BB in there". Even in something like a T6 Devoshire, Odin at least bounces off large parts of my ship, any other T8 BB would go straight through. Same with low tier BB. Even in something like Colorado that has a major speed disadvantage vs Odin, I rather go up against a ship that has to resort to torps to outtrade me, rather than any other T8 that goes through my armour like butter. Uptiered, similar issue. Something like a Donskoi has to respect NC and Bismarck still. Odin you can angle and ignore. She's a ton of work for no real advantage. I'd rather play any other T8 BB. I'd rather play a goddamn Albemarle than Odin. It was actually a Honkai Impact 3rd reference. I have yet to see the surprise. I mostly just know that they are consistent in bouncing off 25+ mm plating. When you catch broadside, they shatter where others would cit and even if they hit do pen, their damage output isn't above average for T8. If I just want a low conceal BB that throws mediocre pen AP at ships with short reload, I'd play Monarch with better dpm and better concealment.

Ägir is more accurate and has 20s base reload and can mount reload mod. 23s reload vs 17.6s is a major difference. Ägir among supercruisers has some of the poorest guns, but unlike Odin, it still has the advantages of a supercruiser. Odin just gets these guns without the dpm, nor the accuracy, just the other questionable characteristics.

The idea that this ship is a T8 is frankly laughable. The ship has two things that are unquestionably good and that's it: Its armour is solid, best in tier and its concealment is good. Third best in tier. Survivability woes come into play when the ship's armour doesn't hold up and lets be honest, that is as soon as you cannot just bow-in/stern in, or you get hit by 50 mm pen HE, SAP or a CV. Then the low hp pool matters. But the low hp pool could be forgiveable, if the rest of the ship was any good. However the guns are the most trash guns at T8, the secondaries are cool to look at, but pretty worthless too (not to mention that it traps people into not speccing a proper tank build), as their angles are a joke. Go bow in? You are lucky if you get 2-4 of the 128s joining in on the action of the 150. The angle you need to give to get more than one of the 128 turrets to fire already is risky, but hey, even if full on broadside, you only get 3 turrets of the 128s. The friggin Gneisenau has better dpm than Odin, even if it only gets 8 km range. Hydro and torps are cool, but situational, speed is mediocre, AA is nothing special. You are stuck with a ship that neither has a solid defense, nor a solid offense. It's annoying if it gets in the 11.6 km range where the small pew pews do something and really mostly poses a threat at short ranges. Which doesn't mean it's incredibly potent there either. Any cruiser with torpedos poses a bigger threat to an Odin than an Odin to the cruiser. When a Bismarck has to consider the possibility of getting torp rushed by a Hipper, Roon, Hindenburg or one of the new supercruisers, Odin basically already is in that situation when a Chapa comes charging. And with 23s reload and BB accuracy, the Odin is not in any way outdpming proper BBs the way Scharnhorst or supercruisers can, with especially poor performance in the HE department, where the Odin just sucks, which is especially painful because of the lack of overmatch. If an Amalfi decides to just yolotorp your ship, you might survive if you are full hp, but if you are even just 40k, one SAP salvo and 4 torps at point blank are guaranteed to wipe Odin out. Counterplay? Dunno, hydro it at 6 km and hope your garbage HE and secs kill a heavy cruiser? The primary fault of the Odin is not her terrible hp pool. It's that her guns have absolutely no redeeming feature. They are worst in pen, in a class of their own in overmatch (Scharnhorst at least shares the poor overmatch at its tier with Lyon, KGV, DoY, Poltava, California), good but not outstanding accuracy, mediocre dpm. With 20s, it might have had some redeeming quality by having the dpm, but without, well, Odin is basically the one T8 ship that is the least dangerous of any T8 BBs to pretty much any class, except maybe DDs, where Odin is still not some sort of high-threat opponent and only gets a better rating due to hydro. With hydro down, Odin still is an easier devstrike for any DD than the other T8 BBs. But for any BB, just avoid brawling, Odin unlike Tirpitz has the hardest time punishing a turn away and being kited, Odin is trash. If Odin isn't broadsiding, load HE, you can simply outtrade it. If you are a cruiser, just stay angled at range and make them regret their purchase or, if you fear you don't have much fight left, go for the torp exchange and trade your ship for an extra kill. Odin even with more hp wouldn't be too strong, she'd just not lose any extented fire exchange with other T8 BBs.