HaachamaShipping

Up to Excavatus to define what he meant, not you.

No, that's not what he wanted to point out right there, regardless of what the definition of "helpless" is. There seems to be an implication of "CVs have no counter".

HSF Harekaze still. 341 games. Next best is Gneisenau on 225.

27 mm pen FFAR-carrying rocket planes. 12 of them. Guaranteed to devastate 6 out of 7 players on the team. This would be more applicable to Ranked. In CB, primary job of DD is not to torp things and it can do its spotting, capping and such even with hydro being on every cruiser. If anything, CVs in CB would make DDs not easier to play, at T8 it would boil down to any DD being a defAA Kidd smoke bot to cover cruisers and reduce the chances of them get deleted by the Enterprises.

Define "helpless". Because (depending on definition) even Shima and Musashi are not "helpless against [CVs] under any condition" nor does this necesarily apply to DM vs BBs or BBs vs DDs.

All ships of a tier burn the same, so, no. Sovietsky Soyuz was laid down, Alsace wasn't. French BBs are likely the most paper ship tech tree after RU BB (3 ships in the line actually ever saw service, with one more at least being laid down vs Soviets where exactly one ever saw service and two were laid down. For comparison, the next most paper BB tech line is British, with 7 BBs in service and one more laid down).

Then Musashi should not exist. Simple as that. It is the balancing that WG did with Musashi, which is a less absurd version of for example the balancing behind Asashio, another ship that gets the tools to crap on one class while getting dumpstered by at least two others with minimal counterplay options other than go and hide. I'm all for less of these idiotic designs, but as long as they exist, this is the price they pay and asking for the downsides of their silly balancing to matter less without nerfing their upsides is just silly. After all, if you wanted a balanced T9 BB that is supposed to be more viable vs CVs but is less of a T9.5 otherwise, Izumo is fine. And if an Izumo shoots down a few planes and poses a bit of a cost to CVs, that's fine too.

What were the damage numbers? Reserves, so you get a second strike and not ust one. Just like BB mains for years feel "helpless" against torp DDs and HE spam, feelings are subjective all the time and nonsense half of it. For balance, one has to look at the facts. And here, your ship still is going to die if the CV is competent and wills it. That has not really changed. What has changed is that CVs now lose planes to any ship that isn't with AA off or some Asashio. And while the losses are not going to save ships from good CVs, they do cause decent CVs to start incur plane losses they were not designed for, increasing the gap between good and bad CVs. So, in essence, the issue is not surface targets magically defending themselves effectively. When a Midway drops your ship for a third of its hp or a Haku drops your cruiser for half, that hurts more than the 5 planes you killed in return and you aren't going to prevent them from gettng you after 1-2 more such passes, for which most CVs have the planes at the start. However, it distorts the balance inbetween CVs between those that can cope and those that can't. There's a reason there's a disproportionate amount of people who play GZ and complain, compared to players who play Enterprise and do. You don't realise that this is exactly how it is supposed to be? Musashi is supposed to get absolutely wrecked by CVs if it does not get covered by others. Planes are just bonus. It's why this ship is even allowed at T9, for being a goddamn Yamato with 0.3 sigma less (1.8 still being average sigma, but on great IJN base dispersion) and worse turret traverse, but otherwise basically the same. Absurd hp, absurd HE resistance, absurd range, 32 mm overmatch, able to meet T7s.

No, both are at the tier for a reason. They may not be the best T8 CVs, though Kaga certainly is among the better ones.

Once upon a time T4s could meet T6s and such. T10 BBs don't overmatch T8s on a regular basis, T10 DDs don't outspot T8 DDs by anywhere near as much, T9 vs T7 every BB, cruiser and DD with any amount of skill can just laugh at T7 counterparts. Some Yuugumo with a captain that has a brain can just absolutely humiliate T7 Gadjah Madas, given the Yuugumo can outspot the GM and if it so wishes could also just gun it down. And that's a Yuugumo, Kitakaze or Jutland would absolutely wipe the floor with T7 competition. Similarly, there's little as hilarious as the notion that Helena, a cruiser with 15 152 mm guns can meet an Omaha, a cruiser that gets overmatched by said guns. Citadels through the bow ftw. And until they patch the Emerald to finally get a better cit deck, very fun getting HE citadelled by any cruiser with IFHE. T8s have basically the means to matter in T10 far more than T5s in T7 games or T7s in T9 games, unless you're some OP ship that gets a good MM, like a no-CV match for a Kamikaze. Even OP ships like Belfast are far less an issue vs T9s, where something like Roon can go "omnomnom, finally some good AP damage".

Compare top tier Nagato vs T5 and bottom tier Nagato vs T9. Just for those whining about T8 vs T10.

Frankly, the current AA is a lot of crap. If you want to fix CVs, give means of counterplay. Go and rework your silly sectors for example, as you said, I'm pretty sure that it's the most balanced approach, as it would finally take both sides into account, not just CV targetting skills (while my skill as DD is basically just guessing where the CV might go and NOT be there). Until that, no AA system is going to be "balanced". CVs still can murder ships with little counterplay if they are good and just because they run out of planes after a number of kills doesn't make it fun for those killed. Meanwhile a good few CVs got absolutely screwed over by the AA changes. And setting aside issues of basic CV interaction with surface targets, it cannot be in anyone's interest for the health of the game that certain CVs are just going about business as usual, while others are basically just hot garbage, because sure, for some it might be elation to no longer get attacked as often by Saipan or GZ, but that CV might be on your team and be barely able to keep mattering, while the enemy Enterprise kills half your team. And it is clear as day that the planes of certain CVs worked because the damage spread out the way it did, as it is imperative in carriers like GZ and especially Saipan to minimise plane losses to stay competitive in dpm with others. Given the German planes are barely above IJN hp and the Saipan plane regen is horrendously slow, these CVs cannot afford to just constantly trade planes for damage (compared to Kaga or Enterprise, which prior to 0.8.5 shouldn't, but if they have to, their power level still is way above what the other two premiums can achieve). And a simple buff in plane hp does not help. If plane hp was so important, Saipan would be good, given it already has the most hp of any T8 CV per plane. Least thing it needed was more hp. Especially not on a flat rate increase of SE. I mean, it's laughable. Saipan TBs with SE go from 2170 hp to 2250 hp, so the squad goes from 13020 to 13500, so almost 3.7% increase in hp. Meanwhile Kaga TBs go from 1303 hp to 1383 with SE, which means the squad goes from 15,636 to 16596, which is a 6.1% increase. So, apart from how this buffs the CVs that need help most the least, it also manages to do it in a most useless manner (3.7% increase in hp is actually less meaningful even than getting SE on a Conqueror, where it gives 4.2% hp. It is not going to preserve your planes to the point this ship regains what it lost in its ability to complete with CVs that can spam planes) and bound to a skill, instead of a proper flat buff to base stats. A skill that has vastly more value to some than to others. It's as if DDs die to rockets too much, thus we buff SE to give 50 hp more per tier. Are DDs going to keep dieing to rockets? Sure, given it's basically an extra rocket hit for most. Is it fair? Certainly not, given some DDs benefit vastly more than others and lower tiers might not even have the skill yet. Meanwhile Adrenaline Rush has become an absulte waste of points, with no fix for that yet. So, please go and work on things that actually make this whole thing balanced with play and counterplay and fix skills that are plane unworkable, don't go and turn higher tiers into T4 shitfests, where CVs are unfun to play, as is playing against them when the CV decides you are going to be the one to provide them with at least some damage.

I got enough to do IRL to not grind a game mode I don't want to play to get what is basically a USN version of Yuugumo.

And your initial question equates to "should a T8be able to dump on a T10 of the same class", in which case most T8 CVs will get killed by T10s of equal skill. Enterprise is the sole T8 that can actually try to pick a CV duel with T10s and even then the T10s are no joke. So, who's the "not very smart" one?

Guess how much a Harugumo, Shima, Gearing is going to do when they suddenly run face first into a radar Edinburgh or Cleveland. Or how often T10 cruisers get crapped on by T8 BBs. And don't get me started on T10 BBs that run into T8 torps...

"Changing the characteristics of radar might upset the balance, but adding radar to ships that have no radar is completely fine." 11/10 topkek reasoning right there...

PA and Russia got improved SE too. Just not CVs. Though it's only a matter of time.

Which ships were screwed over most by the AA change? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan). Which ships were affected the least? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise). Which ships benefit most from this SE buff? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise). Which ships are affected the least? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan). I see nothing wrong here.

At like 3 km, sure. At 5+ km, I doubt it, as shells by then have arcs and will hit the upper belt, deck or superstructure most of the time anway. The best aiming point would be upper belt, as it'd have the least chance of over or undershooting the ship, but the question of where secondaries aim is likely the most overblown "issue" people have with secondaries, imo.

Honestly, what is the point of aiming for deck instead of waterline? At range, the shells are unlikely to hit the belt anyway and at close range, the trajectories of shells are typically so flat that they would just fly over the deck half the time. It'd also mostly just be useful for ships that can pen enemy ships with secondaries in the first place against ships that have an armoured belt, so for French or American secondaries it's kinda pointless against same tier ships.

A lot of players being absolute muppets isn't really new. As I mostly played 20 km torp Yoshino since patch, it's sad to watch who all eats those torps. On the other hand, while we make much ado about CVs, most are just as garbage as all other players. My floating citadel has hydro instead of defAA and I merely select the right sctor and I'm safe with help of fighter plane, because people fail to get AP bomb cits (how?), use 27 mm pen rockets on my 30 mm midsection (why?), stand-off torp with Midway torps from 3 km or so away and complain about how AA buff ruined CV play, despite me seeing those 3k damage numbers on their planes that certainly are not due to the AA changes. But now they have an "excuse" for why their results are terrible.

Light cruisers have better dpm and smaller citadels, but their shells are small and fly in typical USN rainbow arcs, while AP only hurts at close range. Heavy cruisers have larger citadels and less dpm (but Des Moines still is good dpm for T10), but from T8 on get a bit better armour than the light cruisers and while their arcs aren't railguns like Russians, they are good enough to hit things and deal damage with AP even at medium range. Especially as USN heavy cruisers get improved ricochet angles, so not even angled cruisers are safe from your AP.

KGV gets more than 1 more gimmick. It gets hydro, improved pen angles and better AA. For Ranked sprint, eh, not terrible, but I doubt it's great either. It really only gets decent once the buff hits that gives it its last repair party.

My Yoshino deleted two DDs so far with 20 km torps. Clearly, these torps are undodgeable OP killer weapons.

While for some its summer break now, Cagliostro still bumps this thread, as we still have some room for friends. Here, a piece of summery Moni art befitting the season.