HaachamaShipping

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/119989-st-new-type-of-shells/ They don't struggle. They are straight up incapable of citadelling ships with internal citadels with their semi-AP. Mino works different.

Solo its 58k and 61%, so roflmao. Apart from the attempt at statshaming, is sorting by solo stats that hard?

Says the person spouting a bunch of falsehoods. And then you have all the other T8s. And on Amagi you can HE spam the rest of the ship for easy damage. Says the person claiming the ship burns too much despite mechanics dictating that Bismarck burns like any other T8. Also, turtleback isn't just about thickness, but also angle and position. Which is why IJN turtleback starts to lose value at range, while German turtleback stays effective most of the time.

And NC has a terrible WR. And from personal experience as a 56-57% WR player, Bismarck is quite in line with what I get out of most of my T8 BBs. Am I a bad player now or may it be that the ship just isn't as "weak" as some want to believe? WG deemed Slava and Colbert uff-worthy and Yuudachi nerf-worthy. They deemed NC and Iowa buff-worthy. And just because something isn't "good", doesn't mean they are "bad". Imo, the secondary buff is a response to the months of crying about Bismarck getting overshadowed by Massachusetts. It is basically just worse than GC, but that's about it. Which is to highlight my point. Just because something may perform better doesn't mean something is bad, as long as it isn't utterly underperforming. anyone can eat 15k salvo into the superstructure. But at some point it gets saturated and certainly is better than getting some 50k salvo from multiple citadels. So, yes, turtleback works. all T8 BBs burn the same. Small caliber AP doesn't do more to Bismarck than to any T8, given no T8 is so lightly armoured as to just get overpenned and Bismarck offers no additional flat areas to shoot at.

vs Tirpitz: About equal. Tirpitz is more aggressive, being a continuation from Gneisenau, Bismarck is more well-rounded. vs Roma: in a fight 1v1, Bismarck wins. Roma just has less damage output, less means to deal with an angled ship and a citadel above water. Roma is better at surprising ships though, as it gets concealment second only to Conqueror. It also has insane penetration, so when it hits, it's typically some overpen or citadel. Roma isn't a terrible ship though. vs Vanguard: Vanguard wins at range, being more accurate, getting not just decent AP but also good HE, better reload and more hp. Bismarck wins in a brawl though. Vanguard is nowhere as capable at tanking HE spam though and can be citadelled if you aren't careful. Something like König and Bayern meet T7s that overmatch their upper bow, their guns aren't great either, their decks get penned by IFHE. Sure, Bismarck is worst MM of the line. Meh. For one, what is "good"? 50% WR? 55%? 60%? And what measure is "You'll do equally well or better in another T8 BB"? Like, I could say Kongou is a good T5 BB, but if you're anywhere decent, you'll do equally or better in PV or GC. Is that saying Kongou is bad? Is Kongou weak? Or is it still ok, because it performs in line with the rest?

Bismarck is ok. It's not the greatest T8 BB, but far from terrible or uncompetitive. In randoms, people just like to complain about T8s in T10 matches, so every second day we get a new topic about someone complaining that T8 BBs are poor victims of matchmaking. But Bismarck imo is quite fine. Its guns aren't the worst, they still perform ok. While not having Richelieu's all-forward setup, the ship at least isn't unwieldy like FdG or GK to the point that wiggling in and out is utterly impossible and while hydro is not a prerequisite for a push, having it certainly helps and can make a difference in how aggressive you can play. Having 50 mm deck plating and a ton of hp obviously also helps with surviving a push and with secondary buffs, I have really no grounds to complain about Bismarck. Still better WR than NC. Clearly NC needs buffs!

Tirpitz, Richelieu, Gascogne, Vanguard?

I got Fortune (retrofit) and Z-23 (retrofit) (finally finished that yesterday). So, might just use those. Cygnet is only lvl 85, no retrofit, Hammann is somewhere in the early 90s with retro. Overall, I was busy retrofitting London, grinding exp for PR ships and working on levelling Saratoga for retrofit.

The only ASW I got is Chaser and a crappy hydro+depth charge on Fortune.

Hood is a decent deal and likely one of the better deals so far. Would consider it fair (even if it isn't -75% Haida). Solid ship, no surprise mechanics tacked on.

Basic understanding of what the current concept entails. Maybe they'll end up "very good and fun to play", but only if there's a boatload of stuff tacked on to not make them situational opportunists that even in their opportunism struggle to be better than others.

Hey, once in old Aegis I "sniped" the Ryuujou just as it spawned, one-shotting it from max range with 3 cits. Kind of hail mary salvo after I got frustrated missing and overpenning Furutakas 10 km away from me up to then.

I mean, they also aren't selfish damage farmers, because that'd mean they'd be able to reliably do damage.

I got enough premiums to say: I could've afforded that cost. Also, as long as I am careful, models don't just vanish when the servers go down.

IFHE changes as they are in general are basically just catering to BBs. As is this line. Clearly that is what the game needed. sAP being even just proposed the way it is now is so obviously not going to work, it just highlights how balancing seems to always start from some insane notions. Sadly, often things end up in a bad spot. Even so though, other cruisers at least keep some viability against non-BBs (where the changes matter little, because BB are the sole class where fire damage and high armour pen matter a lot. Cruisers and DDs typically can still be penned and don't lose anywhere as much hp to fires in comparison to what they lose to direct pens. Italian CLs don't keep that. If noone points out the issues, the ships never get fixed. Lastly, looks alone don't make for good ships. I'm grinding ships also to play them and have fun, otherwise, I'd get model kits instead.

12 km, crap damage, crap speed, good reload. same as on Ducas.

All AP of the era was capped. It was the lack of ballistic cap that was modelled with old Yorck that made its AP so crap.

It's not their historical stats. Historically, these ships did carry HE shells too. It's the garbage WG slapped onto them to make them "unique".

You know what has fast shells? Hipper. You know what is tanky for its tier? Hipper. You know what at least gets torps and 50 mm pen HE to not be an absolute abomination of a ship, but still is a very lackluster if not bad ship? Hipper. And Hipper gets a German hydro and better base AA. Interesting detail. It makes it a slight bit better, but honestly, still not useful.

What is this line actually supposed to be good at? They got no means of dealing with DDs, given they lack hydro and anything to deal with angled DDs (as well as having little dpm). They are not going to deal well with BBs, given they have no means to deal with BBs that just angle besides 12 km meme torps and the Zara has not even that. They are arguably decent against dumb cruisers, but as soon as those cruisers angle, what is an Italian cruiser going to do while it gets burned down? And obviously, CVs will just murder these ships, because the base AA is basically the worst any line ever featured short of IJN DDs and they got no defAA. So, what are these ships good for? What fights am I supposed to win in these ships and not have to credit it to my enemy for being terrible at the game? But the models are nice. Maybe I'll keep some at least for port decoration...

Just being hard to kill doesn't make for a good cruiser.

Yes, but the normal plating you can expect from "well-armoured" T7 cruisers is 25 mm. Even stretching that, beating Myoko who does that with 32 mm deck is unlikely. And even if Zara gets there, what does this ship have over Myoko? Better sAP alpha? Yeah sure, shoot shells that bounce off angled DDs for 0 damage while Myoko can just obliterate DDs in few salvos, because DD dispersion + 10 guns + IJN HE alpha. Even if I just want to blap broadsiding morons, why pick Zara when Yorck just gets German AP that does that job just as well and still gets acceptable HE and torps? As well as a hydro. The real consolation is that these are the early days, so the ships might get buffs. Just like WG reworked other lines during development, taking British cruiser HE away, taking Soviet BB radar away, giving Yukikaze the speedboost that should have been there in the first place, etc. But until then, it doesn't take a genius to see that Zara is basically a Hipper with worse armour, no HE and no torps. Reliant on dumb enemies to actually matter.

There's little making her OP compared to Yorck, Myoko and Algerie at T7. As a T7, at best the ship gets 25 mm plating, it has no torpedoes, it is not very fast, it has no HE, it has no way to deal with smoked up targets, it is pretty much just there to shoot whoever gives broadside with improved damage shells. But if I wanted that kinda play, I'd go with German cruisers, where Yorck at T7 is solid, while the Hipper shows what "I can do lots of damage if I don't ricochet" means. Just that Hipper at least has some HE with some redeeming qualities to it. Zara gets none of that. Zara can basically hope BBs turn broadside, otherwise the best solution currently is a ramming flag. And don't get offended by me, this is what WG decided. At least half the issues the ship has at T7 are linked to what WG decided ships of this nation and of this tier should be like. If Zara got actual HE, proper consumable loadout and T8 grade armour, we'd be able to talk about "decent" (not OP). But as is, this ship, just like the line, imo, is in major need of rethinking. You cannot put a line of ships into the game that gets nothing. Even the British cruisers at least have good dpm, improved autobounce angles, long-duration smoke and repair party, ontop of great concealment and torpedoes on tech tree ships from low tiers all the way to T10.

Yorck and Myoko have basically what passes as good T7 cruiser armour (and what Zara might get), have already good damage per salvo, have no issues citpenning other cruisers, get a hydro (Yorck gets German hydro) and torps. Zara gets what? A lulzy smoke?