HaachamaShipping

No, they are not. These ships are T10. there is no T11. There is no need to make the same ship but better. And ships like Yamato and Montana are very much competitive at T10.

After a couple days of battles with Yoshino, some great ones, some less great ones, I felt like writing down my thoughts so far on this ship, to see what others think about these matters, as well as to maybe give something for undecided people to think about before forking over the coal for this T10 supercruiser. First off, I consider the ship kinda balanced, not bad, but in a rather unenviable spot, at least in regard to any role it might have in competitive. This is due to what it brings to the table... and what not. Yoshino's main strengths offensively compared to other supercruisers are its HE dpm (due to good alpha and better RoF) and torpedoes. Just on base values, Yoshino matches Henri IV in HE dpm (which admittedly isn't much, but way better than any other supercruiser), before figuring in legendary module and MBRB on Henri (as well as the announced nerf, which would put Yoshino higher in regards to base dpm. I'm not considering reload vs range mod, as both cruisers usually would run reload mod with their exceptionally high base range and access to spotter plane). Yoshino also pulls off exceptional accuracy for a supercruiser, with a unique IJN supercruiser dispersion formula that starts out barely worse than DDs at very close ranges, gets worse than cruiser dispersion at 7 km and will stay ahead of other battlecruisers up to 30 km (which means, at any realistic range). So not only does the ship have more HE dpm on paper, it lands more of its shot typically, with only competition being Stalingrad with its HE that is worse except for fire chance (cause Russian). Compared to other supercruisers, this means Yoshino to me is the sole supercruiser where I find myself playing mainly with HE loaded, instead of AP. This however also comes down to the the AP being punchier than normal cruiser AP, but far from the Soviet penetration, nor having the improved ricochet angles that keep Alaska viable. The torpedoes meanwhile are either a long range annoyance or used for torping people from up close, allowing Yoshino to be surprisingly brutal in a brawl, provided it can avoid blowing up from getting hit in the citadel. Defensively, just don't get any hopes up. The citadel is massive, unlike stalingrad theres no 50 mm section to prevent getting overmatched, at best, be pleasantly surprised when people ricochet off the citadel. Yoshino cannot angle in any way that makes it exceptionally hard to citadel the ship if the enemy knows what they are doing, but you can try at least to not make it exceptionally easy. Extra repair party may sound nice, but usually is pointless. As a supercruiser, while not Stalingrad, the ship is pretty bulky and harder to steer than regular cruisers though and not very hard to hit. And it can be penned pretty easily. Two things I do want to touch on though, which I feel need to be pointed out: Yoshino's 30 mm plating does not make it way more tanky than Azuma when it comes to citpens. It reduces the amount of overmatching normal pens through the deck or side on the upper belt. Anything that would hit and penetrate the citadel armour on Azuma basically has like 5 more mm to go through to hit the citadel of Yoshino. And whether you overmatch 30 mm or not has little to do with it. A Bismarck with 380s will citadel both just the same, or not, as anything where overmatch makes a difference between the two cruisers would not result in citadels. Similarly, just because something overmatches your armour does not mean it's an automatic citadel. Not rarely, the shells might ricochet off the interior citadel belt. Don't count on it though, nor count on enemies being dumb enough to shoot there if they got better areas to shoot at. The area between the 30 mm torp belt and cit belt is spaced armour, allowing magical 0 damage pens. Reduces some of the vulnerability, but don't count on it. Overall, the whole defense of the ship is lackluster and unreliable. It's not exceptionally bad, I'd still rate it better than Minotaur and against anything other than 38 cm guns, it's maybe on par with the DM. But this ship is just not very tanky. Overall, the ship can do pretty decent. In the supercruiser fights, it actually craps on other supercruisers, because Stalingrad or alaska armour matter not to the Azuma and the closer it gets, the more threatening it can become due to the torps, while supercruisers cannot overmatch it. However, that is down to the main reason why I think this supercruiser kind of falls flat in competitive: It's basically the most cruiser-like supercruiser. While any other supercruiser gets jokes about being way too BB like, with Stalingrad able to tank Yamato shells, Alaska having underwater cit and 36 mm USN BB deck and Kronshtadt being a big chunk of hp with BB guns and waterline cit, the Yoshino is a long-range HE spammer that gives reliable dpm instead of huge alpha strike, when compared to other supercruisers. It gives concealment, instead of actual survivability. And the sad fact is, other cruisers just do its job better. at least in competitive. in randoms, you can still derp around. What I also feel like pointing out from my experience in the ship is that people should not compare the Yoshino to Zao. That's two different kind of ships that just happen to carry the same flag. Their roles are not the same. Zao is a very stealthy cruiser with little hp, but nimble and with great harassing potential. Zao can scout, can support with accurate long-range HE and can be an utter pain in the aft when kiting. I do consider Zao one of the better counters to the Henri currently, as a Zao that knows how to lead and dodge is likely one of the most frustrating and lethal enemis a Henri can encounter. And Yoshino does not fit this bill. It is a long-range HE spammer, but what it provides is far more in line with Henri. A very thicc Henri that forgot how to speed boost or burst fire, in order to acquire the knowledge of long range torps. Running Yoshino in a CB lineup, likely would be in support of something stealthier that spots, like a Zao or a DD. And the main issue the ship has is not its crappy citadel protection (doesn't matter near as much against cruisers), but the lack of dpm and the ease with which enemy cruisers burn a Yoshino down. And given Henri, even with nerfs, is going to offer valuable advantages over the Yoshino, this ship will just not see much use in formats like CB, as it just offers nothing new that isn't better covered by others. This includes also one last point I saw brought up: The possibility to spec IFHE on Yoshino to pen 57 mm and 60 mm plating on Yamato and Kremlin. Here, sadly, I have to say, that no, I also don't see that as a potential niche. First off, this would require such ships to be dominant enough to justify the pick. They don't seem to be. Secondly, running IFHE Hindenburg is likely a better idea. For one, Hindenburg is smaller. Even with reduced range, Hindenburg has an easier time dodging shells and Yamato, as well as Kremlin are very scary enemies to fight openly with Yoshino. Secondly, Hindenburg has way better raw dpm, especially with announced buff. Third, Hindenburg is tankier. Hindenburg basically has almost as large an hp pool, while burning for half as long, more extensive 30 mm section, some turtleback on cit, smaller target and same amount of repair parties. Even fires per minute is better on the German, given while it might have low fire chance, drastically lowered by the IFHE, properly equipped with flags, this ship still fires way more shells. So, the only thing Yoshino eventually brings is 21.3 km base range on a cruiser and 20 km Shima torps. Anything else can be obtained with other cruisers. And neither of these two strengths is a great asset justifying the pick.

And I go on to list more in subsequent sentences, given T10 MM is T8-10 99% of the time.

As well as Alaska, Kronshtadt, Lion, Conqueror, NC, ...

4 DDs in a game? Oh my god, how to deal with that? I guess the same way cruisers deal with the frequent 5 BBs per team for years now.

Vigilance and EL are nice, but no more mandatory than the rest. For three points, not really any more useful than BoS or SI. Especially for anyone running hydro. Also, I'm not sure the Yoshino is "difficult to hit". It's a large ship with mediocre rudder shift, even when you fully spec into it. Hindenburg, Henri, Moskva and Zao have little trouble hitting you, if they have any clue how to aim shots. I typically take like one citadel at most when angled, but that is entirely up to RNG, which is what I mean there is no "effective" way to angle. Contrast to Stalingrad, which has angles where citadels are extremely unlikely. Also, I'd take Zao over Yoshino in most situations, because while Yoshino has better hp pool, Zao has way better dpm and is way harder to hit. Yoshino can at best trade on equal terms with enemy cruisers other than other supercruisers, if their skill level is on par, as the dpm is just too low and you have to substitute your own hp for it. Zao meanwhile has little issue doing Yoshino's damage to cruisers with more than 2s less reload per salvo and way better chances to dodge return fire. I can see the appeal, disagree with the notion that concealment is pointless. For one, the rudder shift with just one rudder mod in my experience is entirely sufficient for engagements at range. Usually, you should already be slightly angled away anyway. Secondly, I do not think that concealment is pointless. If you only burn down BBs, the concealment indeed matters little. There are however also other ships and for those, it can be vital. For one, engaging cruisers I would not do at long range, but preferably at shorter ranges. As stated before, Yoshino's dispersion equals a cruiser at 7 km, is superior within 7 km and falls off beyond 7 km. It thus is not in Yoshino's interest to play at extreme ranges vs cruisers, unless you want to throw most of your dpm into the sea against a ship that can dodge better than you (even with full rudder build, you aren't outdodging a normal Zao or Hindenburg really). Typically, the best engagement range is somewhere between the range where you can still properly avoid getting hit by all shells and the 7 km where you start doing very reliable damage. And that can often end up very close to the values stated, so concealment mod can then often allow for disengaging if things turn bad. Additionally, concealment mod reduces the amount of cruisers that outspot you. With concealment mod, the only T10 cruisers that outspot Yoshino are Minotaur, Worcester, Zao and Des Moines/Salem. Also their T8/9 counterparts. Without concealment mod, it's every cruiser except Moskva, Stalingrad and legendary Henri (as well as the odd legendary Hindenburg). Obviously also all their T8 and T9 counterparts, as well as Kronshtadt and Alaska. Even RN BBs start outspotting you by over 1 km. There is great value in not getting jumped by cruisers unloading AP into your sides.

The issue is that Ohio is based on Georgia which arguably is slightly overtuned and scrapes the border of OP, just that it is in good company among T9 freemium BBs. Thunderer meanwhile is a worse Conqueror, combining the inferior gun option with a weaker repair party. While I'd consider Ohio certainly passable, with only the dispersion being worth tweaking at best (towards normal BB dispersion), Thunderer needs improvements. Taking a Conqueror, giving it the worse gun option and then a Vanguard heal instead of Conkek heal is silly. Vanguard is ok at T8, because it competes with Monarch, which has Warspite heal (and had normal heal when Vanguard came out), but vs superheal, you basically only benefit from better cit restoration, which only matters if you get citadelled to crap.

We don't know how long Yoshino will be around. likely some time. As to whether it is worth it, we cannot tell you based on the info you give. All i can tell you is that yoshino is a decent enough ship for T10 and can hold its own. Some people might not like it, because they feel it is not special enough, some might not like it because they find the playstyle boring, but others will just have similar complaints about Smolensk. Like, Smolensk gameplay to me is not really more thrilling and I certainly have more interest into the IJN B-65 cruiser design than in some obscure Soviet project that noone ever heard of and might not ever really have been seriously considered for construction. Why? If you don't give a damn about what is being offered for steel, feel free to use it on coal ships and any newly announced ships need half a year or so anyway.

As you'd expect from 2.0 sigma vs 1.8 sigma on the same guns. But I guess some people rather ignore that they have the same guns and Nagato is just straight up more accurate.

Yes, but you are arguing this with me now, after my original post was just an attempt to explain as to what very likely was the reason behind the restriction. That's just needlessly dragging it out.

That is not the point, because while the ship might be absolute garbage in every other way, if it had not that 10% restriction, it would potentially oneshot DDs. It'd be the scariest T10 to meet for a DD, because there's absolutely no reason to not give enough broadside to a DD to fire one surprise salvo and then turn out to avoid any BB return fire lobbed your way in reaction. If it did not have a 10% restriction. As stated above, this is not about sustained dpm. Both of you miss the point I'm making. The thing is, the incredibly high alpha/low dpm is basically one of the dumbest ways to balance the ships. In most cases it is crap, but it is hard to argue that it would not be absolutely insane if a DD gets surprised once and absolutely gets demolished with a combination of damage and accuracy that we have not yet seen before to this degree. So the 10% restriction with those stats makes some sense. And while, yes, it'd not make the ships OP, because they are otherwise crap, it should not be that one harsh disadvantage is countered by an equally insane advantage. That is the point I'm making and that is in no way related to goddamn dpm, which, yes, is crap. Thus I compared it to Yoshino, which together with Zao is the closest we got to such a ship currently. And there's a great difference between what a Zao can do and what a Venezia would be able to do.

Yoshino fires 9 shells, Venezia (formerly fires 15. A Milano deals over 20k in normal pens per salvo if all shells connect, which they won't, but how often do DDs still have like 24k hp still? It's not brokenly OP, but certainly would be troubling. Which is why i'm just not sold on the whole idea of 20s reload, tons of damage, tons of restrictions.

Neither the PE nor the Atago are stationary cruisers and for delaying, Atago is just better. From clan brawl, Atago is the more played ship and that for good reason. It's like trying to argue why to use Hindenburg instead of Zao, if Hindenburg had way better armour (which it does not).

Issue with that is the damage on the shells and ricochet angles. Currently, the shells do a lulzy amount of damage to enemy DDs. But they will not ricochet often with pens possible up to 85° (or even if it hits at a 5° angle, there still is a potential for a pen). If you combine that with the alpha, these cruisers will 1-2 shot most destroyers. High tier 203 mm SAP is 5.2k alpha, compared to Yoshino HE at 5.1k (which is improved damage 305 mm HE, mind you). What the ships would need is less extreme shell options.

Yes. And it still doesn't make up for having no HE alpha, having worse accuracy, having way worse concealment, worse speed, worse rudder, worse torpedo range, being weaker to HE and arguably being weaker against anything with calibers beyond 38 cm, as Atago has a 41 mm deck at least, PE has 27 mm everywhere except some 40 mm near the bow (less coverage than Hipper).

Not like there aren't already cases where ships just lolcit each other through the bow at T5 with Furutaka/Exeter 203s and Omaha 10 mm plating.

Huanghe offer is pointless. Take the cheaper one f you want the ship. Prinz Eugen by itself is uninspiring, but in a bundle, lol. Basically Hipper, but in exchange for even less dpm you get a heal. Take an Atago instead, if you need a T8 CA with heal. That ship at least gets a decent deal for its low dpm.

I'm not saying play this as a close range brawler. I'm saying up close, you aren't much worse off than most other cruisers. Henri or Zao also don't hang out up close usually and Des Moines also cannot brawl BBs that well. It's a cruiser thing, but not a specific Yoshino thing. I played Yoshino a fair bit in the last few days and while I get the odd citadel, it's typically just one. Which with an hp pool of over 60k is manageable. And as said before, Yoshino should be played at ranges like you'd play Zao or Henri. It shouldn't move closer if BBs are around, but most cruisers have to mind their distance. And I really don't mind people trying to shoot my Yoshino at 15-17 km. Most things are usually a non-issue. Among supercruisers, Yoshino does afford you the best concealment, which even outperforms Hindenburg and Henri. And let's be real, going broadside on any cruiser is best done unspotted. Torps should be regarded as one set per side, two sets if you can afford to go full broadside. But they are way better than on Zao as you can torp ships that try to brawl you. Zao is hard-pressed to do that without dying in the process. Obviously, 20 km torps need extra care in usage. But that's up to the user. I'd agree. I played a good bit of Yoshino the last few days and getting decent damage isn't hard. But it's not the best pick for a carry ship. Kind of like old Henri was not a carry ship and Zao has at times issues with that. I don't know. Never talked to your clan mates. Most people I talk to argue "Why take Yoshino and not Zao.", to which I say, like in my first post, that Yoshino is not really a fit for the Zao role, but for the Henri one. And in that role, Yoshino does not shine, because Henri exists and is one of the strongest cruisers available. Thus my caveat, if Henri gets but back into line with other cruisers like Hindenburg, Yoshino might have a place. As stated before, I used it in Clan Brawl, given it was a good testing ground and if it hadn't worked out, I'd have switched to a different ship. Overall, it isn't the ideal pick, but if you can capitalise on the strengths, it's solid. Primarily, you compensate for not having Henri relocation speed by just shooting across the map when necessary, otherwise, you are long-range heavy fire support that can really put a tend into BBs and camping cruisers. Much like Henri, I think seeing this ship anywhere near your flank will make Stalingrad/Moskva sad, given you can just yeet on their deck for heavy damage with no issues.

You do realise that the cities you listed as examples have all one thing in common that the ones you chose do not - access to the sea? Also, 20s reload on the Milano? Even with 15 guns, what exactly is this thing supposed to be? It cannot deal with DDs, because the 10% max damage mean even if it would hit all 15 shells, it doesn't even take out half a DD with SE. Even with improved ricochet angles better than anything we have seen so far (short of Tachibana), so on some ships you might get pens even if they go full bow-on, having absolutely no vision control, having no fire chance and having no effective anti-DD tool, these ships will struggle to perform reliably.

9.1 km concealment is barely better than stuff like Atago, Edinburgh and Cleveland. All three would shred this thing fast. And if you play Atago in these days, imagine having a cruiser that is basically that, with more torps, but almost no firepower, no armour and no repair.

After more matches in Yoshino - Yes, you can play around the citadel. Best is to stay at range vs overmatch guns and if you have to tank close in, stay angled. Study the citadel shape in port and consider at what angle people will hit you and how it might bounce off the citadel. Yoshino isn't a tanky cruiser, but not unlike Henri, it's a trollish cruiser. You cannot reliably brawl BBs in this ship, unless you get blessed by RNG and the enemy messes up and fails to punch through your frontal cit bulkhead, but it's surprising how much incoming fire this ship can tank. Kind of like T5-7 IJN CA (+Atago), where you get surprised when shells bounce off the deck. For randoms, Yoshino is definitely a ship I like playing, though it is very low-impact and partly I'm happy if people think the armour of this ship is trash and shoot at me, rather than others, because that means I can do more than apply my lackluster dpm. For CB... if Kremlin becomes more popular, IFHE Yoshino might be a thing. Played the ship in Clan Brawl to test it and the citadel is really a minor issue. Tankiness-wise, given 6/7 ships are not BB, it can even get rather lulzy watching the 0 damage pens on the angled spaced armour by HE and US AP or see people underestimate the Yoshino's damage output. It's not great, but you can hold your own against Henri and Zao in close range fights, due to the large amount of hp. Other than that, CB is usually not 1v1, so Yoshino doesn't bring lots of dpm, but might just be enough. I'd consider Yoshino in CB not the best pick, but certainly not an absolutely terrible one. Kind of like a weird sidegrade akin to switching Des Moines for Salem. Imo, if Henri gets successfully put back into line with others, the Yoshino will be just fine. For randoms it is fine.

It does that immediately and reduces engine power by like 3/4. If you ram a heavy ship full speed in the map border full on, good luck getting unstuck anytime soon. They move along the border at a snails pace. It's certainly not too hard to hit. German BB or not. Also, they only move along one single axis while stuck. All you get to do is correctly estimate their sideways motion along the border. You don't get rewarded really, because to any competent player, you are not hard to hit and you aren't going to get away anytime soon. Reward would mean you get something, but you don't, you lose your engine power and most of your movement options (as you can't go further forward and are slow to reverse). If people stay angled at the border, it's usually not great, it's the less terrible option compared to giving broadside after you run out of map space. And no, a map border is not an island and should not act like one. It already has repercussions and complaints feel like it's years ago, when ships retained all their engine power and could just glide along with little repercusion... like planes can now, when they can pull insta-180° turns, because reasons...

Also Yamato/Musashi 57 mm deck. I have not yet used IFHE, because I just used a 10 point Azuma captain and went for other skills first, but might get an IFHE build towards the end.

Take IFHE on Yoshino. Base range already is 500 m in excess of Kremlin's. If you want to be the most annoying cruiser a Kremlin has to deal with, this likely is it, for they are never safe from sudden 6-12k damage and random fires every 16s. With spotter plane you can even hit one on the other side of the map (25.5 km range). It's not the most effective way to play Yoshino though, but the range certainly is excellent.

Remember the CV rework? I'm not too optimistic about submarine balancing.