invicta2012

Well - and I say this carefully - don't the Agir's new stats look a lot like Scharnhorst's? Have the just taken the Shiny Horse BC concept, shoved it up two tiers with slightly bigger guns/better dispersion and called it a cruiser? As for California - Comrade Sinop doesn't struggle with 33 second reload.

That's WG's fault. There haven't been loads of ludicrously OP Royal Navy Test ships sent out for public scrutiny. If WG don't like Russian Bias accusations then they really need to put a bit of QC on their Soviet designs before they get given to the public, because they've not made this mistake once, it's been three, four, five times: add that to the several rather OP Soviet ships in the game and the curious imbalance in nerfing between different nations and you have a meme.

Perhaps best fire them at the broadside or at the nose, then? I wasn't. I was suggesting other ways in which they could make CVs work. But you responded that anything other equality of damage with other CVs would be unacceptable. So how does that work with "influencing that in the right Direction"? What could WG do to make these CVs not the same and not as irritating as the other ones?

Admitting to things many of us do when evaluating team mates? The one about XX_Sniper_XX made me laugh, because that's my favourite judgement. Not always fair - and not always true, too - but it's difficult not to think it.

Agreed. But the problem is that WoWs isn't a PVE game, really. Playing a submarine in a good PVE environment would be an exciting game, just like it's exciting to play DDs in this one. But in WoWs randoms, some other player has to be the patsy, taking the torpedoes and allowing others to have their fun. And no-one wants to play that role, especially not experienced players who have spend time and money on feeling good about how they play. We've already seen what happens when WG starts chasing new players - Tier IV double / triple CV games - and if Tier VI becomes World of Submarines for the same reason then they are going to start losing players very rapidly... and that is the spiral that World of Warplanes got stuck in, trying so hard to attract new players that they alienated all the old ones, and ending up with almost no-one at all.

Well, maybe that's the problem with CVs. Every other ship class gets by just fine with these variations in playstyle, and it's not an instant lose because someone brought a Worcester rather than a Des Moines, but maybe CV game play is just so one dimensional it's not possible to make them interesting like that. Which is a problem in terms of appeal.... It might be enough to produce a line of standard CVs purely for fans of German ships but these aren't going to do well overall if they're just "more CVs".

Well, feel free to point out all the positive things that submarines will bring to the game. Most of the people who play this game are enthusiasts for naval history and warfare, and we're struggling to see what the upside of this new class is. Feel free to try and change that view, if you can?

"Not Messing Up" = Conservative, campy game play. Will submarines risk attacking groups of ships, that have DDs and Cruisers with depth charges and hydro, and are likely to be protected by CVs and spotter planes? No. They'll go for single targets, ships which are flanking and spotting and doing useful things. So there will be fewer players prepared to do interesting, constructive things and more sitting in a blob for protection. It is. So why add to the list of "things people find annoying about WoWs" with a ship class which seems boring to play and annoying to play against? This isn't Convoy Simulator 1940 and Subs don't fit.

Well, that might be an idea. Who plays a game to be farmed? The most common cause of player ill-will in this game is feeling that they've been the subject of another player's damage farming without adequate counter play. That's behind BB baby bingo, all the complaints about destroyers, CVs, HE spam, Smolensk, etc etc. WG want Submarines to be fun and engaging to play but to do that they need to be allowed to do regular damage, and that will cause immense aggro from the people being sunk by an unseen player. Sub damage should be balanced with risk in the same way that DDs are balanced. I suspect it's not going to be.

30 knots on the Tier X would be fine. CVs shouldn't be looking to torpedo DDs and CLs any way, and 30 kts and decent range would give BB players a choice between dodging the torps (and sailing in a straight line) and manouevring (and taking the torps rather than a citadel). I know the idea of providing utility to other players is not what most CV players are here for and that there will be a lot of huffing and "no reason to play this when there's Midway / Your Mum" etc but they can afford to experiment. People are going to play these because they're German, not because they're good, so do something different.

Someone laminate that for the WG office wall, please.

What is the new MM, then?

Let me think CV: USN / IJN / RN France Italy Soviet Union BBs: USN IJN Royal Navy Battlecruisers Cruisers: Pan - Asia Pan - American? IJN CL/CA split Destroyers: Commonwealth (Destroyer Leaders) Pan - American Pan - Asia II Europe Mk II Italy Torpedo Boats Italy Large Destroyers (Capitani Romani, etc). French Standard Destroyers (Le Hardi / Mailie Breze etc) German Large Destroyers (Spahkreuzer etc)

Yes. There are aiming bugs about, but that's usually to do with the lock on feature picking the wrong ship in a melee. Aegis tends to exhibit the worst of ships with poor vertical dispersion, as that constant course of the red ships means they're usually at a 45 degree angle and it's quite easy for all your shells to land around them.

Considering Lightning actually has some AA, this might actually be useful.

It's Lightning, without smoke, with radar. And one set of torpedoes (on a fast reload).

That's exactly what it is. It sounds ideal, really: all the HE spam of an American cruiser with better range, defensive torpedoes and slightly less of a tendency to explode than a Mogami. Looks like a fun ship to play.

That doesn't really stop it.

Randoms / Post Randoms Most played - Krasny Krym - (R) / Hsein Yang (Co-op) First Kraken - Duguay-Trouen / Caledon Worst Ship - Shchors / Shchors Most Kills - Krasny Krym (246) / Hsein Yang (245) Highest Damage: Nelson / Smolensk Unluckiest: Nelson / Trento Most Frustrating: all of the awful ships I had to play when they were released before they got buffed. Favourites: DD - Fubuki / Hsein Yang CL - Huang He / Wichita BB - Dunkerque / Jean Bart CV - Ryujio / Ark Royal

Aigle is available for a moderate amount of coal. Or doubloons, or cash. Plays well in Operations and makes lots of credits, due to a nice balance of guns, torps, speed and smoke. If the advice is "stay at mid tiers" then that ship is a must-have.

I'm not salty and I know when my tail is being pulled, but thanks for making your intention clear.

Did you put Torpedo Acceleration on your captain? +20% speed, -20% range. My Italian cruisers still throw torps 8-12k. My Royal Navy heavy cruiser smashes them to bits. Fires and broken modules ahoy! There are some DDs with more armour than you think, and captain skills can reduce the risks of fires, but Soviet cruisers should still have no issues. I think almost every ship line that WG has brought out of late has made life harder for destroyers. French and EU DDs - no smoke. RN CAs - hydro, nasty HE with RN BB module breaking shells, CVs - 'nuff said, Italian CAs - SAP shells which can one shot DDs, Soviet Cruisers - more radar! I think we all know how powerful DDs can be - but there's no shortage of counter play. Just don't sail in a straight line.

They won't. And if they do ever turn up in Co-op and Operations, being controlled by bots, they'll be so useless as to not matter. Sorry to spoil your fun.

Hopefully they'll be hard to find because they'll be in another game mode, which I don't have to play.

For me... it's not an interesting addition and the game play already looks half-cocked. I fear a repeat of the CV debacle where WG is going to release something which isn't finished and then try and make it work on the Live server.